John Boorman - The Emerald Forest

0:00 Stay where I can see you words every parent has said countless times. You both are parents, Andrew, how real is the fear that someone could take your little boy from you? You know, I try not to think about it, but it creeps into my head pretty much any time I'm out in public, at least once or twice. It's terrifying. How about it, Amber, Well, I also had the double pleasure of being a teacher as well as being a parent, and having experienced taking children that didn't belong to me on field trips and being responsible for returning them safely. And you're constantly counting, constantly counting, you know, do I have all my little ones?

0:49 You know? It was always an ever present kind of in the back of your mind. All right, Well, I want to talk about this, So let's talk about a film by John Borman, his nineteen eighty five underrated classic The Emerald Forest. Hello, and welcome back to a Film by podcast. It's a new season, it's a new show. I'm Jeff Johnson, and I've got Amber Lewis and Andrew Blakeley with me today. Welcome back, guys. Thank you so excited to be here. The last time we talked the three of us got in the room together. It was for our Patreon We covered similar ground because as we were talking about a nineteen eighty six classic, Harrison Ford's The Mosquito Coast, and I had such a good time with you guys on that one and me too. Yeah, it was a fun different movie to talk about. I regret that one didn't make the regular

2:20 lineup last year, but it's there. It's on Patreon, so you can hear it. Speaking of Patreon, i'd like to welcome our newest Patreon members, Nanette and Amanda Janic. As always, if you'd like access to the exclusive content we provide on Patreon, head over to www dot patreon dot com backslash a film by podcast, and sign up for the free seven day trial. You'll find video, audio commentaries, exclusive episodes, some of which are with Andrew and Amber, and a whole lot more film buy on Patreon, guys. Two days from now, Sir John Borman celebrates his ninety first birthday.

3:05 I love the fact that we're opening the season with a Borman film right with his birthday. We're talking about The Emerald Forest Andrew. How about a quick synopsis. Bill Markham played by Powers Booth is an American engineer, and he takes his wife and two children to the site of a new hydroelectric dam he's building in Brazil. During the visit, his son Tommy is taken by locals. Bill and his wife are left heartbroken. Ten years later, Markham is completing his work on the dam and still searching for his son. He finds him living with an indigenous tribe who are referred to only as the Invisible People. Although Markham wants Tommy to return with him to civilization, the youth, now called Tomae, has become part of the tribe and views the chief elder of the Invisible People as his father. While staying with the tribe and seeing how his son is adapted to their way of life, Markham realizes he cannot force Tomay to come home with him. Afterward, the Invisible People are attacked by a cannibal tribe, the Fierce People. These warriors kidnapped the women, taking them to a local town built around the dam. They plan to sell them to brothel keepers. Tomain, now responsible for it the Invisible People, realizes that he needs Markum's help to rescue his people's women. His son's return compels the engineer to take a hard look at the values which have motivated him to build the dam and the impact his work has had on the local people. That was informative. Andrew, thank you. Let's jump into this.

4:31 I want to talk about when we talk about Caston Crew, I want to talk about Ross Poe Pallenberg, the writer of The Emerald Forest and longtime Borman collaborator. He also wrote Exorcist to the Heretic and ex Caliber, more on those later. He based this script on the nineteen seventy two abduction of a young boy in Peru, who was in fact kidnapped by an indigenous tribe and found sixteen years long later fully assimilated. So, you know, you watch this movie, it's got for me, it's got kind of like a fantastical element. But then you gotta be you gotta remind yourself this this really happened, you know. Yeah. I think the term based on gets thrown around a little bit sometimes, but I think this is a good use of it, because sometimes you see a movie based on a true story and they try to pretend like this is how it really happened, and I don't think that they were really they didn't feel tied down and writing the story about making it the true story of exactly what happened, just sort of inspired by those events, and I think it's better for it. Sticking to the truth sometimes can be really educational, but it can also be limiting and just let them really just find the meaning and the story that was there. Powers Booth is leading this film. He plays Bill Markham a year before he's in one of the best war films ever made, talking about nineteen eighty four's Red Dawn.

6:00 He's got a great he's got a great career, but he never really hits it big. And my theory about that is that everything Craig T. Nelson did was something that Powers Booth didn't get to do. What do you guys think? I mean, I never thought about it that way, but I see what you're saying. My thing was, I had to remind myself like, oh, yeah, he was in Red Dawn, because he played cy Tolliver in Deadwood and is such an amazing character in such a powerful presence on the show. He's so good on the show that it took me a minute to get into this movie and seeing him as as just this dad, you know, because I kept waiting for him to just be this horrible villain.

6:56 So I think he's he's kind of undervalued. But but I think he got in the end, he got the great, the great role on Deadwood. So he he had he had so many great roles, whether whether he was the hero or the villain. Right, Andrew, I'm picturing Tombstone. That's I think the first thing that comes to my mind. He's such a fantastic villain. He's just so creepy and forgot that curly bill brosis. Yeah, because Michael Bean sucks all the ear and so yeah, but I mean think about you know, Amber, You're you're thinking about him as this villainous character, but think about him. Go back to what was it eighty two with Poltergeist. Could you not see him as a as a Stephen Freeling? Yeah, right, kind of of dad, But he wouldn't be quite the kind of doofy kind of dad that Nelson was. But Craig T. Nelson's like a softer version of powers Booth. Oh. I like that, Craig T the softer powers Boot. All right, well, let's talk about the incredible actress that plays his wife in this. I'm talking about Meg Foster. She plays Gene Markham. So again I hear Foster and I immediately think Masters of the Universe in nineteen eighty seven and they live in nineteen eighty eight, you know, with those hypnotic eyes and that soothing voice to say, they hired

8:28 her for her eyes. Yeah, absolutely, she's intoxicating. So why did we not see her in bigger movies because she's had an impressive run over the years. But I kind of feel like she, you know, we missed out on some good Meg Foster roles and I don't get it. Even in this she's really underused. I think, yeah, the scene she's in, she's good, but they're just so few and far between, and I think halfway through the movie. I almost feel like they forgot about her character. That's a good point. Filmmakers didn't really know what to do with her, Like they were like, is she a villain? Can she be soft? What do we do with her? Okay, Yeah, to your point, Andrew, I would love to see this as like a director's cut or a criterion collection and maybe give us like another fifteen minutes of footage that we don't know about that maybe, you know, gives us a little bit more Meg Foster, because she she's there in the beginning she loses her son, and then twenty minutes later, thirty minutes later, she's there again looking for her son at you know, a orphanage, and then and then there's this big anti climactic moment where she she's you know, back with Tommy who is now TomEE, and it's just like a quick hug and then we're off. We got we gotta, we gotta wrap up the movie. So I thought that was an important moment. Though, Okay, I agree, that's why I wanted more of it. I think that that was a moment I was looking

9:58 forward to, is seeing their reunion and seeing his relationship with her. How would he react to her, how would she react to seeing him again? And it just it felt they didn't really give it the space it needed. And but we needed more in that scene, right, I don't know. I feel like the biggest piece to the reunion between both the dad and the mom is I feel like they weren't looking for a fifteen year old, even though they know that ten years has passed, like in their brain, he is still five years old and looks the way he did when they left him, they lost him. So I feel like the reunion, especially for her at the end, was like she had to have that closure of this is not the same person okay that I lost. This is a completely different person.

10:52 So she gets that reunion and she gets that closure, but that's really all it is is that recognition of, you know, my baby is not there anymore, Like this is a different person. Okay. So I mean when when you watch the when you watch the scene, it almost feels like there's a disconnect, like she's she's not overly joyed. You know. This isn't like the tearful moment where she's clutching him and crying her eyes out. It's just, you know, it's a quick you know, a clutching, if you will, not so much a hug, but a clutching. And then he's off to rescue his wife. So that's interesting. I mean, I assume logistically that Belle would have explained the situation to her by now, so she's at least somewhat mentally prepared, if not emotionally. I don't know that you could emotionally prepare for that. But well, even in that scene, I feel maybe we've got a little short change in that scene too, because he after he has gone through his ordeal with the Invisible People, he comes back, he's kind of had the shit kicked out of him, and she's like, what's wrong, something's happened, Tell me what's happened. You know. It's almost like a lassie where he's just not talking well because she's used to this for ten years. He's gone off on these quests, you know, and come back empty handed, so she knows there was something different about this one. But you know, I have to say, this is not the movie I thought I was willing to be watching. Okay, I saw it when it first was on like HBO or VHS or whatever, remembered

12:24 almost nothing about it and really was buckled in for like like a lifetime movie like The Adam's Story or something where it was going to be all about the search for this child and you know, this dad's quest to find his boy. And so when it really became all about this indigenous tribe and their life and you know, regardless of the trauma, like to May has a very good life and is content with who he is. So I was like, well, this is even remotely what I thought was gonna happen, and I think if we had had more emotion at the end, or more of the mom or you know, I think it would have changed the dynamic of what the movie ended up being. Yeah, Andrew, you said this was a first time watch for you, right. Yeah. To be honest, I don't know that I had ever even heard of it, which was surprising, but I'm glad you brought it up. I think the first thing that I heard because I tried not to read too much about it before I watched it and just go and blind, but I read that it was a sort of a spiritual sequel to Deliverance in that it's sort of man versus nature, and you know, civilization clashing with people who are removed from civilization, and I think that prepped me in the very wrong way. It was very different than the movie that I was picturing, but it was beautiful. I think it was really really done well in a way that I wasn't expecting, especially a movie in the mid eighties dealing with like indigenous peoples of you know, South

13:58 America. I was like, Oh, this could fall into a lot of really bad tropes or feel really kitchy or or derogatory and I mean, I think in some ways it did fall into a few tropes here and there, but by and large, I think he did a really really good job of showing these people in a way that felt earnest, it felt genuine. I was very pleasantly surprised. Yeah, it had been a long while for me. I was happy to revisit this one because I remember the first time I saw this, I was I was a kid. You know, this was on Showtime one night. And when we get into the the invisible people and their way of life, you know, there's a there's not a lot of clothing worn. And I remember her experience. Yeah, And I remember I remember my mom like going looking at my dad. He's he's going upstairs, this this is this is not okay. And then you know it's okay.

14:56 It's it's like National Geographic. And my mom, you know this is not National Geographic upstairs? You know, you know, I don't know, but you know, I I definitely have to agree with you. It is a lovely film. It's it's shot. It just looks gorgeous. You know. I would love to see this in four k uh and more more on how I saw it later, But yeah, yeah, job. I want to mention I struggled to find this one. In the first place I tried to watch it was on YouTube. Don't look that. Oh god, it was awful, awful FI. I wouldn't have gotten to watch it otherwise, but God bless this guy that like uploaded the bad bhs. Okay, we we gotta Okay, let's talk about it. So I told you guys, no, no, we're jumping in now. I told you guys, we so we had done. You know, we talked about getting ready for this one a couple of weeks in advance. I told you, guys, hey, you can find it. It's it's on Pluto, it's on t B, it's on Prime and and you know, you guys were like, oh, I can't wait to talk about this one. This is gonna be a great one. I ultimately had to watch the YouTube version, which basically it's it is someone recording it off of Showtime in nineteen eighty five, yep, and the quality was so poor. I Yeah, if there was ever a need for physical media, it was this past weekend when I was trying to watch this because you know, it's it's it's out of print. You can't find

16:29 it, so yeah, I mean you can find it Criterion upgrade. It certainly does more. One more person I want to talk about real quick. Charlie Borman as Tomay. So we know the initial choice for the role was see Thomas Howe, who I think would have knocked this right out of the park, who had an amazing job, especially in nineteen eighty five, but he was unavailable. So Borman decides to cast his own son, despite some real opposition from Ross, Poe Palleinberg. They end up having a falling out and this is the last time they worked together over the whole matter. I mean, it's Charlie Borman that bad of an actor because I didn't think so.

17:11 I thought I liked him. I mean an Excalibur, he's like cringe. But in this he's so like, I don't know, otherworldly, and he doesn't. It's perfect because he doesn't really fit in our world and he doesn't fit in their world really and right, what did you think, Andrew? It felt like nepotism going into it. That when I saw the name, I was like, oh, really, you come on? But I think he really held it together. He had he had a lot of weight on his shoulders, in this movie, and I'm genuinely surprised, but yeah, he pulled it out. It was it was really really good. And I think you're right. He's got a very specific look about him that does make him sort of stand out in any crowd, especially at that age.

18:00 You know, his eyes and everything, but he has that like innocence but also enough to like confidence to carry those scenes. I was I was impressed. I think the movie would not have worked. You know, somebody else maybe could have done it, but if he didn't carry his weight, the movie wouldn't work. I like him. And as far as his look, you know, when I if I think of like the iconic images from the nineteen eighties when it comes to cinema, when I think of that haunted look he has as he's aiming the bon and arrow towards his father and realizing who he is. I mean I could pick that scene out of a lineup ten times out of ten. It's huge, such a great scene. Yeah, let's take a quick break and when we come back, we'll talk about we'll talk about the background of the movie. We'll talk about some of the scenes that just got to be talked about. The check it out there's a brand new podcast on the way exploring the discographies of the Beatles and the Beach Boys.

19:00 It's called Apples and Oranges and and Lodges. On February seven, we will be matching albums against each other in a one v one format, discussing every single track and then giving our verdict on which album is better. Pet Sounds versus Revolving Sergeant Pepper versus Smile. Wouldn't it be nice if most people knew how well the Beach Boys actually held up against the Fab Four. Both bands inspired each other to keep pushing the boundaries of what was possible in pop music here, there, and everywhere, and what we got were some of the greatest albums of all time. Awesommer Long versus A Hard Day's Night, Rivers versus the Beach Boys Today. So let's come together for some fun, fun fun and help me Ronda get this podcast off the ground, and we'll sure appreciate you being around. On February seventh, wherever you find your podcast, that's Apples and Oranges February seven. We are back. I've got Andrew Blakely, I've got Amber Lewis, and we are talking about the Emerald Forest by director John Borman. So this by Borman's account, this is filmed on location in Brazil. He says it was hot, uncomfortably humid, and that they endured daily torrential downpours. Think about how good actors and actresses have it today with all the green screen, you know, real world technology, real world engine technology they got, Like he is deep. He has dragged everyone deep into the rainforest to shoot this movie. And I'm glad that he did

20:33 because you can see it there. This is this is just gorgeous cinematography. Yeah. I had a vision of like the Mosquito coast and like how they were dragging the ice from one side of the jungle to the other, and I pictured him dragging all this camera equipment into the rainforest. Yeah, it's it's hard to really like overseell how important for a movie, especially for a movie like this, the physical like the texture of the jungle and everything is it's I mean, you can get a shot in a sound stage here and there if you need to close up, but really being there just creates a different atmosphere. And I think it's still today with all the technology. It shows. It shows when they put in that put you in that position versus just try to simulate it well. And even like the scene that the waterfall, there's no dialogue because you can't hear anything because the waterfall is so loud.

21:33 Yeah, I love that and that was amazing. The scene was better for it. You know, when you can't think, Andrew, you just can't fake that kind of beauty in Brazil too, I mean that the waterfall. Like you said, there are several shots with different waterfalls and they're all just so stunning. It's I mean, I just want those scenes to last a little bit longer because I'm just taking it in, you know, and once again, like give us, give us a director's cut, like, there's got to be more to this movie, I would love to see it. Speaking of more to see, you know, we talked about how little the indigenous tribe is wearing in this film. I came across this and I really I want to believe it's true because the Native South American actors were so little in the film. Allegedly, the non South American cast and crew started each day on set with some neud aerobics to warm up to kind of balance things. I mean, if there was ever a behind the scenes extra you want on a DVD or a Blu ray. I think this is it right, maybe like a train wreck. I don't necessarily want to see it, but if it's there, I'm not gonna look away either. I read that.

22:45 I was like, I believe that. If we're on a Matthew McConaughey movie, I believe it. I don't even care if it's a rainforest movie or a movie based in Texas, it's probably happening. But we are bonding in this way exactly. Let's talk about there's some noteworthy scenes here, and but let's let's start even with the beginning. You know, this is not good parenting. No, they are bonkers, like like kind of disconnected, like they're in Central Park or something like you know, I'm I'm a little bit of a helicopter mom, I will admit, but you're in that Amazon.

23:25 Like you're not gonna say don't go where I can't see you in the Amazon, like you might say that at your local park. But there are I mean, forgetting the indigenous tribes. There's like spiders the size of dinner plates and like anacondas and they're ripping out, you know, trees with big construction equipment, Like I'm kind of feeling like I'm gonna keep a hand on them everywhere we go. And they just had this kind of cavalier letting him wander kind of thing. Yeah, right, Yeah, the seventies when that scene takes place, we were Yeah, we grew up different, you know. I mean, stay where I can see you is probably better if you're at the mall and not in the Brazilian rainforest with uh, you know, construction and and dangerous uh people and dangerous animals. But yeah, the sad thing is that, you know, he wonders off and then he comes back and it's it's when he brings his dad out there with him. I gotta say that that scene, you know, the invisible people and just how they are, they just blend into the the shot. It's beautiful, but it's also really scary, I think, yeah, because you weren't really sure at least I wasn't at the beginning, like real they kidnapping him for like what's going on? Yeah, you know, more of that in a second, but yeah, and the idea that they snatch him the second powers Booth turns

24:56 his back, that's unreal, I think, Yeah, speaking of unreal. Let's uh, let's there's a couple of scenes here, and I get it. They're they're rituals. But I'm like, no, thanks, Uh, Andrew, how about your adoptive father telling you that you must die so that you can become a man. What did you what did you think of the ritual of becoming a man? To an extent, I get it, I guess. I don't know if that's something that I went through a phase in my my teens and twenties around the time I met you, Jeff that I was like, well, you got to do some really dumb stuff. You got to put yourself through hell to see what you're made of. So I get the concept. I don't know that I'm going to go quite to the level that they do. Being covered with fire ants is uh, that's already a deal breaker right out of the gate. You know. Yeah, I'm fine with them shooting you know, that, blowing that uh, that hallucinogenic dust up my nose. But yeah, but when you when you cover with fire ants and then like you know, bury me and drown me up, I'm passing hard. I'll do some drugs with dad, That's fine. You'd stop there I like the look on Tom's face where when he said are you ready to die? He was kind of like, is he gonna kill me?

26:15 Yeah? Well he's out there. Yeah, him and his buddy, they're out there in the in the water and they're they're kind of flirting with uh, you know, some of the girls, and you know, we're having fun. And then you know, when and not he shows up and he's like, you know you must die? WHOA, Okay, you know, I get it. I'm past curfew, but right I'm sorry. I won't take the car. I won't take the car. Uh. I love the idea that that this puts him on this journey of finding the sacred stones that they use for paint to become the invisible people. I like that he's given purpose immediately as a man like almost like a like to prove himself, like a trial. That part of the movie I really, I really thought was cool. Yeah. I was kind of thinking as I was, I don't know if that's necessary. I think it's both giving him a purpose but also maybe a sense that he feels he needs to prove himself as a bit of an outsider or as someone that's different. They never really outright acknowledge that he's treated as different, viewed as different. But you could pick him out of a lineup. He's, you know, bright blonde hair and blue eyes, and he stands out. So I wondered if that was sort of a need to go above and beyond. Yeah, Amber, how about that marriage ritual? I loved when he came to her village and he's like, okay, so you're gonna marry me now, and she's like, no, I'm staying with my dad. And he's supposed to smack her with this like club thing and he kind of looks like I don't know that I can do this, and she's like, you have to do it right. Yeah, So

27:47 he smacks her and knocks her out and drags her off. You know, it's very you know, First Nations primitive, but you know she was I thought she was. She consented, So she consented to a concussion and a head wound. Yeah, she knew what she was getting to do. She wanted to marry him, so I guess, you know, I feel bad for her. She you know, she wakes up after she's been carried off and it's like she's like, yeah, I felt better, but let's do this right? You know these these women are they are strong. They're strong women in this tribe. Uh strong, strong tribe, the fierce people.

28:30 Oh good god, absolutely terrifying. I wasn't sure how to feel about it, Like I wasn't sure if it was like vaguely racist that they were cannibals, or if there's I don't have enough knowledge and research to say, like, well, no, there's tribes like this, but they just made me all kinds of uncomfortable. Yeah, I mean I know there were there are hyper violent like uncontacted tribes. That's part of the reason they're still uncontacted. I don't know about the cannibal as am aspect, but yeah, it's I think, Yeah, you're always bordering on that. It's always something you got to be super careful with with when writing characters, Like you need it, you need an adversary, you need an enemy, but you don't want to fall into that like savage trope. Yeah, I know, I know it existed, but I don't know that it was a South American thing. But I liked that, like they were already their antagonists of the invisible people, Like this was already a conflict that existed and the you get like this throwaway line that they moved into their territory because of the construction. The fierce people got pushed into the you know, the invisible people were pretty successful at avoiding them, but they got pushed into their their area. Inside of that conflict, you go. There's places in this movie where it doesn't necessarily hold your hand and leads you to it, but it sort of hints at the idea

30:03 that all this is happening because the dam is being built, because they're deforesting, because white people are moving in and sort of changing things. And I mean it's it's not subtle, but it also there's a lot of places where it just kind of hints or drops a line. It doesn't necessarily hit you over the head with it. Yeah. I like that, you know, we get this message, but it's not force fed. And I think that's one thing that they that they really did well with the movie. Let's talk about a pivotal scene. We've talked about a couple of scenes. Let's talk about the pivotal scene. You know, Uh, for me, uh and Amber, you kind of talked a little bit about this. Uh, I think the pivot, the pivotal moment is when Markham confronts Wanati. You know, everything seems kind of chill, and then he just turns it and he's like, why did you take my son? And you're waiting. You know, it's very confrontational, but I feel like Wannati's explanation not only does it not make them villainous, it kind of explains why they're such a good people.

31:04 You know. He talks about, you know, the young boy smiling at him and then realizing that he was he was too good to be left for the dead world as what the as a as they call it, you know, civilization and that whole, that whole conversation he has about termite people, about how white white people, you know, they're the termite people because they chew up all the grandfather trees. I love that, you know, and it made me think, like, you know, what they were They weren't kidnapping him. They in their minds, they were rescuing, rescuing him. So for me, that's a very pivotal moment I think in this movie. Yeah, it changes the opening scene. As soon as he said that, I thought back to in the very opening when Bill was saying that, you know, we just pushed the trees over that the roots don't go that deep, and you know that line. He says it nonchalantly, like it's just we're doing our job. But then when viewed through that lens, it's like, wow, you're just casually destroying this entire forest like it it's not even a thing. Yeah, especially the aggression when they come back to return powers booth to the construction site and the chief says, you know, the dead world, it used to be a lot farther away. It used to take his days to get here. And you see like this line, this demarcation of like this beautiful jungle that you've come to feel comfortable and love, and then it's just dirt. It's just slashed and burned, like gone.

32:35 And you can see why you wouldn't abandon this poor or beautiful little child to that world. Well, yeah, they talk about you know, they're confused, like, you know, why are they ripping Mother Earth's skin off? You know, how can they do this? It's when you hear it from that perspective, it speaks volumes about what we're doing, you know, you know, how we how we feel we're making things better when maybe we're not. You know, Andrew you gotta you got a pivotal scene. I I think you probably took the the pivotal scene as far as I'm concerned. But I think the one that really put the movie, you know, in motion, I think was when Powers and his friend Yue I believe is how you pronounce his name. Is that the journalists we're out looking for a son and they're taken by the Fears people. I feel like that is the point the movie really got going for me. It kind of like set the events in motion and really kicked things off, and it also really set the stakes about how dangerous this really really was. It wasn't super violent where it could have been. It wasn't super emotional in the way it could have been. But like it sticks with you because he's basically put in a position where he just haske to lea his friend there to die and take off running and hope he doesn't get eaten, and that's it. It's the The speed at which the

34:07 tone shift happened really caught me off guard, and I think that the movie is much better for it. Yeah, I appreciate. I appreciate that it's not gratuitous in that moment. It could have been with with u A's death and with the fact that this is a cannibalistic tribe. So I did appreciate that Amber a pivotal moment for you or is this the pivot moment? No, well, no, that it just grossed me out, Like it was just you don't see anything. It was just the idea that like one minute everything's fine and then the next minute they just like turn on him and it's like this horrible attack that you're kind of left imagining. But no, for me, it's it's kind of I don't know, cliche, I guess, But for me, the pivotal moment was when powers Booth finds Tomay and the waterfall and just that you know, Tomae is looking for those stones and it's sort of the catalyst for them ending up in the same area because it would have been too far fetched for you know, his dad to just like happened to stumble on him and you know, thousands of miles of jungle and just that that moment when they lock eyes and they recognize each other and you, yeah, like we said before, you can't hear anything because the waterfall is so loud, and they say each other's name, and I was just like

35:37 I couldn't breathe. It was just completely enthralled. I love that he doesn't recognize him as his dad from ten years ago, but as Dade. The vision that he has that lives in my head, that lives in my head. Ah, so beautiful. Absolutely love it. That's that is That's a great one. Yeah, I gotta I gotta say, these are some very pivotal moments you guys have picked out. I love each one of them. Let's take one more break, and when we get back, let's talk about John Borman's movies. You know, we are back, guys, Let's talk. Let's talk a little bit about John Borman's filmography, thirty thirty two movies.

36:23 I know we're not going to talk about all of them. Let's just let's serun a couple couple of them though. Let's start with you know, the film that puts John Borman on the map. Talking about nineteen seventy two's Deliverance. Yeah, yeah, I heard. I heard you guys. Listen. I'm going to give a shout out to docum Base seventy seven. You guys, both of you were involved in a spirited conversation about the top movie Top seven movies of the seventies. Yes, I happen to love Deliverance, and it appears to me that most people on that episode do not love Deliverance. How about it, Andrew, Love is an interesting word. I respect Deliverance. I'm not going to make any effort to watch it again anytime soon.

37:12 No. Oh wow, it's I mean, it's a great movie. It really is. And I think I get why I put him on the map, and you can definitely see thematically and like visually, a lot of the same things that we've talked about in the Emerald Forest in Deliverance. But yeah, it's it's rough. I mean, it's intentionally a rough watch. Yeah, like that's what he was going for. I was. I was like the first time I saw it, I was probably sixteen or seventeen, and I was on this kick of like, I gotta watch There's so many amazing films throughout Hollywood's history that I haven't seen. I got I gotta get them, I gotta get them all. And I was horrified by Deliverance, you know, and I'm talking about the one scene we're all thinking of all.

37:55 I was like, oh my god, I'm never going to go camping again. But well, and I'm gonna get on my feminist soap box just a little and say, okay, like this is kind of a touchstone film for men, and that's why. But imagine, you know, sexual assault is like a plot point in so much uh, I don't know, pop culture. I guess you would say, are so much art that we consume that for women, it's like, hey, you guys are whims. One little scene and everybody knows what movie you're talking about, you know, And so I think it's it's kind of ironic. But I think if you take that piece out, I will be fair and say it is one heck of an adventure movie. Okay, Well, you know, and when you think about that, yeah, I think you're on something there, because maybe maybe it's maybe taken for granted as a plot device in a lot of films, and then when you see it flipped and it's it's different. It's you know, for me, like at sixteen, watching that for the first time, I was absolutely horrified, and then I never looked at a scene like that in any other movie the same, you know, whether it was a male or a female. But yeah, great, I think for me, it's largely about the how the director does it, And I think, like I think of films like Irreversible or Last House on the Left, those scenes stand

39:27 out because usually it's a plot point, but it's not one that they just outright show in all its gratuity, I guess for lack of a better word. And every time that happens, it's just it's haunting because usually you know, the camera pans away and you're left to think about the solve the thing happened, and sometimes the director just hits you upside the head with it. Irreversible, it's a disgusting, violent act and needs to be acknowledged as such. Like Irreversible stands out in my head, like if I had top five most traumatic scenes Irreversibles on there before Deliverance in my opinions, but they're absolutely the contenders. Yeah, I I don't ever want to watch Irreversible again because of that scene, especially for how how drawn out it is. It's it's so unsettling, it's so uncomfortable. I don't think I could ever watch it again. But uh yeah, I'll take I'll take dead Betty over that.

40:20 Uh, let's talk about nineteen seventy four. He does one of the weirdest films in this philography. I'm talking about Zardas. Yes, Oh god, what the hell's going on here? It You have to watch it just for Connery in that I guess bikini for lack of a better term, shot in like a a onesie bikini with that long ponytail and all too much chest hair. I was gonna say the most like masculine and sexy of men is just completely stripped of all of that. It just looks ridiculous. What's more ridiculous or awesome? But what's what's more ridiculous? He remember that he does this after Diamonds are Forever and he's he's not getting a lot of work. Uh so Borman gets him for two hundred thousand dollars. Wow, think about that for a second. Sean Connery, James Connor. Yeah, it's like, hey, listen, Sean, if you could put on this bikini brief these bikini briefs and I'm gonna make you look as ridiculous as possible. I got two hundred k. What do you say? I think? And by the way, it's like there's some weird future movies. I feel like there's a story there where like he he owed him one or something. Yeah, either

41:50 that or there's there's some kind of bribery going on. I feel more sorry for for Charlotte Rampling, Like how this woman she's she's such a fine actress, and I'm thinking, how does she get roped into this? You know, I don't know. I mean maybe you're you're coming off of the heat from Deliverance and you're like, wow, this guy he won awards, he knows what he's doing. He's okay art, I trust him, you sign on. And Connery is has a history of not picking the best projects. I mean it's he's yeah, it's not the When you look at the one sheet the film poster for it, it's it's gorgeous and has a real Logan's run vibe to it. You know when when film posters were art, they weren't just a bunch of people's faces superimposed on a on a piece of paper.

42:42 But I love the tagline beyond nineteen eighty four, beyond two thousand and one, beyond Love, beyond death, Like, yeah, I just pulled it up. Oh you're not kidding? This is? This looks badass? Would it? Does? It looks bad? Yeah? You know what I'm gonna I'm gonna revisit it. I gotta, I gotta check it out one more time. Maybe it's maybe it's aged. Well, I want to believe. I hope you're right. Now. I don't think you're but I hope you're right. I'm willing to go there. I'll get back to you, all right. I'm gonna roll the dice when he when of you is gonna get stuck doing a Patreon episode? On on with me? All right? Moving along, Borman's not getting better at this point because he gives us Exorcist to the heretic one of the I'm you know, I'm calling it like I see it. It's one of the worst sequels in this franchise. Am I am I wrong? Oh? No, you are not wrong. I had never seen it because I was everybody had said it's so bad, and just in the last year or two, I was like, ads on, you know some streaming thing for free, I'll flip it on. And I was like, good god, what is he happened? I don't know. I mean The Exorcist, I will say, is the scariest film ever made.

44:10 Yes to this day, I have trouble watching it alone in the Dark, but the second one, no, I mean it doesn't help that. I think Richard Burton was like completely hammered through the whole bit. Oh yeah, it's I don't know. There's so many bad choices happening in that movie. You know, it's got a three point eight on IMDb, and I think that's generous if I'm if I'm being honest, but I mean, my god, the cast, you know, like it would have been cool, It should have been, but it is not. I'll tell you what is cool and has a stellar cast. And Amber, I know you're with me on this. Yes, nineteen eighty one we get ex caliber. Heck yeah, Andrew, I know, I know you, Andrew. I know your love of cinema. I know you're encyclopedic knowledge of eighties films blows my mind.

45:06 You haven't seen this one. I'm not proud of it, but it's it is what it is. It's on my list. I actually bumped it higher on my list. I found where it's streaming, so I will be on it soon because especially after this, you know, I want to I want to see more Charlie Boorman. You know, listeners, if we need to set up a GoFundMe for Andrew to give him a good quality copy. I mean, my god, we have the four K Blu Ray, yes, with all the extras and everything, like just do yourself. Yeah, that's yourself a gift. That's stunning piece of music. Oh for Tuna by coming to Bonna. Oh, I mean it is the it is the piece of music. You know, it's quintessentials. You guys that are going to get me to watch it too, because I'll be honest, every every still I've seen from it, everything I've heard about it sounds just so over the top, so ridiculous it is, But that's that's what makes it great. No, coming over to Docking Bay. Listen to our King Arthur versus EXCaliber.

46:05 I've gonna let it all out for you. Why EXCaliber is the superior movie Helen Mirren Gabriel Byrne, Liam Neeson, Patrick Stewart. I mean I could keep going. That's that's a cast I'll give you. There's so many and there and this is like, this is nineteen eighty one, so this is they are peak, They're they're just they're just coming into to greatness. I think that's that's pre Jean Luke Picard. That is yes, far hair. Yeah, yeah, he's got hair. He's not even what that looks like. He's got it all. We've been talking about The Emerald Forrest nineteen eighty five. I'm gonna be honest with you guys, as we move into the nineties with his work, I'm very unfamiliar with it until until two thousand and one when we talk The Tailor Panama with uh, that's the next roun on his list that I've seen. Yeah, I was rolling through and I was like, these, I haven't even heard about half of these. Yeah, I want to say a lot of it's you know, it might be British films, it might be TV movies. But I got to jump to two thousand and one with with Pierce Brosnan and Jamie Lee Curtis to get back on the Boorman train. How about you guys same. I mean, I've seen some of those, you know, intermittent ones, but this, the Tailor of Panama is I mean, who doesn't love John Lacry So it's yeah, it's so good. And Brosnan's just so charming in everything, but especially in this, devishly charming. I love him in this. It's after this you

47:36 know, we're talking a couple of shorts, a couple of TV movies. You know, twenty fourteen was his last film. Queen and Country did not do that. Well. It's actually a sequel to his film Hope and Glory, which makes me kind it's really amazing. Yeah, I feel bad we skipped over that when Amber. I haven't seen it, but you're saying it's amazing. Yes, I haven't seen it in a really long time. But it was one of those that I don't remember if it won any awards, but it was on the awards list, and you know, it was one of the movies that everybody you know was talking about. So it was one that I remember watching because of that, and it's just so affecting. Okay, one it won the Golden Globe for Best Picture. Oh well, there you go, ember knowing Queen and Country in twenty fourteen is the sequel to open Gloy does that make Does that put it on your list to watch now?

48:35 Yes? Very much? So Okay, I hadn't even heard of Queen and Country, so, you know, until I was looking over the filmography for this, So yeah, I'm very I'm very intrigued to see where that where that is going to go. Okay, well, let's uh, let's let's wrap this up, guys. Typically we love to talk about what we want to see next from the director again, Happy early birthday to sir John Borman. He's turning ninety one this way, what this Thursday? Actually? And I doubt that he's going to come out of retirement to do anything new. But Amber, I know the answer to this, But I'm gonna ask you anyways, your favorite John Borman film. I have a new found appreciation for this film, The Emerald Forest, And like we said, I would love to get like a four K, you know, print, but ex Caliber will always be the quintessential John Borman extravaganza. I felt that that was the greatest movie. Andrew, I gotta ask you. You know, our friendship has always led me to believe you are one of the more adventurous people in my life. If you're out there in the wilderness, the great beyond, who would you rather face the fierce people or some inbread rapists down south?

50:06 Like? Who who do you had a better chance against? I don't like either of these options, but this is all horrible. I think I've got a better chance against some Inbread Rapists. I think you did too. I think, yeah, I see Andrew as a full on Burt Reynolds in that situation. So yeah, and I also see myself as a powers booth. They give me a several hours head start and they still catch me. It's not great there, and speaking the great, I kind of I kind of feel like we all we all recommend this movie, right, this is this is one that you want to see. Yeah. Absolutely, it really surprised me. I think there's a lot of good stuff to it. I mean it it isn't without its faults, but I think the things that make it great really make it worth watching. Yeah, I think it it really held up over time, and I really way. And you know, there's there's still things to be you know, spoken of as far as you know, invading the natural world and you know, not respecting you know, this earth that we've been given. So I think if you're hitting up some of those you know, late eighties, early nineties stories, this is one of the better ones. This film and the message it delivers still relevant aged very well. I would strongly recommend you catch this thing is currently you're going to

51:38 have to buy it for like ten bucks. On Amazon like buy a DVD or you're going to have to watch the the glorious eighty five VHS quality YouTube version, which will certainly take you back to another time if you're a fan of nostalgia. But but once too watch, I think he'll be willing to spring the ten bucks to get the DVD. Yeah, for sure, absolutely absolutely. What do you think about Sir John Borman's The Emerald Forest? Let us know on social media Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, check out www dot a film bypodcast dot com. We're writing articles now, or write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com and you can come back tomorrow for our Star Trek theme series, Phasers Set to Stun. Dave Scott and Wayne did a great job recapping some of Star Trek's best news shows. For those of you wanting to dive into Star Trek the Next Generation but maybe don't have the time to watch twenty two hour long episodes, they'll give you their top ten can't miss episodes for Star Trek the Next Generation Season one, and next week on a Film Behin, we'll trade the dangers of the Rainforest for the treacherous Climb of K two with Martin Campbell's vertical limit. Thanks, thanks for listening me