Ghost World: Directed by Terry Zwigoff

0:00 In the early 2000s, were you looking to establish yourself or escape? Were you ready to grow up or were you refusing to? Let's talk about a film by Terry Zwigoff. His 2001 quirky, coming-of-age comedy, Ghost World. Ghost World Hey, everybody.

0:42 I'm Jeff Johnson. And I'm Angela Norris. And this is a Film By podcast. Angela, it's great to see you. Thank you. Good to see you. We knew we were going to miss you a little bit in October. You're not known... for being a fan of horror films. No, certainly not. I know we had tried to do some things, but unfortunately life kind of got in the way. But next year, hopefully I'll be a little bit more of an active participant. Next year, we'll strap you in and give you the good stuff. Yes, because I think it would be funny, especially video-wise, of my reactions to a lot.

1:23 Of things that I haven't even seen yet. So I'd be a first-timer. Absolutely. Angela, do we have a minute for a shameless plug? Sure. Okay. Always. So listen, we are dropping some excellent celebrity interviews right now on our YouTube channel and we need you, our, a film by listeners to help us grow. If you like what you've been hearing for the past seven seasons, please hit that subscribe button on our YouTube channel. And if you want some exclusive content, or you simply just want to hear today's show early and ad-free, like all the others, head over to patreon.com slash afilmbuypodcast and sign up for as little as $ 3 a month. You can also sign up at higher tiers to get all the swag and request your own episode. This helps support the cost of creating the show and paying Angela's extensive contract to make appearances. We also want to thank Bill Bantz.

2:23 of the All 80s Movies podcast for helping us kick off November with our look at V for Vendetta, one of the best representations of films adapted from a graphic novel. We'll be discussing another one of those today. But first, Angela, three things you may not know about Terry Zwigoff in a quote from the director. To begin, he's an avid collector of old 78s records, mostly jazz, country, a little bit of blues. He's an avid collector of old 78s records, mostly jazz, country, blues. I'd say it's a safe bet he follows A Vinyl Odyssey on Instagram. Shout out to The Vinyl Professor. It also makes you wonder how much of him is infused in Bashimi's character, which I know we're going to talk about. His most notable work, the 1994 documentary Crumb, won the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance, and along with another popular 1994 documentary, Hoop Dreams, they were directly responsible for changing the way Academy voters vote, because, Angela, neither one of these movies were even nominated for Best Documentary Feature that year. Have you seen Crumb, or have you seen Hoop Dreams?

3:41 No, I haven't seen either one of those, but yeah, Carm was actually one after reading about it that I would be interested in seeing. And I think I read that. Because of, I guess, the documentaries were either categorized or how it was defined with the. Oscars that they revamped that, I believe, is what triggered that. I get it. Not everything gets a nomination. Right. But the fact remains, these two documentaries, they basically swept... Yeah. All the film festival circuits. Right. But to be fair, I mean, obviously, you remember what won Best Documentary Feature in 1994. Don't even try it. I pretend. As soon as you say it, I'm going to be like freaking der.

4:25 I can't say it because I don't know. Oh. I don't know what it was. I couldn't tell you five nominees. I couldn't tell you a single one of them. But you're like, was something. Really good about it? Yeah. No, it wasn't really good. No, I wasn't setting you up there. But that's the thing. We've all heard of Hoop Dreams. We've all seen Hoop Dreams. We've all heard of Crumb. We all want to see Crumb if we haven't seen it. Neither one of them even nominated, so glad that there was a little bit of reform there. He has made his disdain for corporate commercialism very well known, choosing to turn down several high-profile projects, instead choosing to scrape by for several years until he could make Ghost World. And when he turned down a chance to direct Elf, Hollywood more or less stopped asking. Right.

5:10 You got to wonder. I mean, yeah, it's a Christmas movie. There's only so many times, yeah, that they're going to come at your door. I wonder if he looks back on that and goes, I probably should have done that one. Because sometimes it's like, you know, one's got to feed the pocket, one's got to feed the soul. Doing something that you can still be creative and put your mark on it with cash and a decent check. There's nothing, you know, wrong with that. We got to make a living. And then, you know, some people take on those big projects so they can fund it back into smaller things. Yeah. Yeah. I got a quote for you here. Talking about how his films are perceived, he said, quote, if I see my films described as quirky or even worse, snarky one more time, I'm going to probably seriously consider an early retirement.

5:56 All these years I've labored under the conceit that they were darkly humorous. And I'm just now realizing, Angela, that I... called Ghost World a quirky coming-of-age comedy in the opening of the show. So I apologize, Mr. Switoff. He's looking over time. I've seen it described as a comedy, and I'm like, you've got to have a couple more adjectives in there to be a little bit more specific because it's just too broad of a stroke, and I definitely would not put this under a comedy. One thing that is not broad on this show this season is is how we describe what these movies are all about. I'm talking about the five-word synopsis. Angela, tell me, using exactly five words, what is Ghost World?

6:44 Navigating life after high school. All right. That's broad. It is broad, yeah. It's broad, okay. This one was a tough one for me, yeah. I think I'm riding high. Last week, I had a very excellent one for V for Vendetta, where I used all V words. Nice. What was it? Sorry, I didn't get a chance to listen. To it yet. I don't even remember. It's so awesome. It's so awesome. You're funny. That's all right. It'll just motivate me to go listen to it. I'm a little overconfident right now. How about this one? Okay. Outsider rebels while seeking purpose. Oh, I like that. Yeah. You like that?

7:25 Yeah, that's great. Definitely took way more effort and thought than mine did. I got to be honest. One of our co-hosts, talking about the voice of reason, Amber Lewis. Yes. She, like Mr. Zwigoff, showing his disdain for commercialism, she has all season long shown her disdain for the five-word synopsis. Yes. I mean, consistency is key. Yeah. But she's so good at it. And not to, you know, she wasn't going to not challenge me. She gave her five-word synopsis for V for Vendetta. Listen to what our own Amber Lewis had to say. And this is for V for Vendetta, listeners. Vengeful vigilante vanquishes vicious villains. I mean, wow.

8:21 Yeah. So shout out to Amber Lewis, who... rose to the challenge and, uh, may, may have even, uh, defeated me. Cause you know, hers was just, that's, that's amazing. It was so good. I had, that's the thing. I had hers on, on, on my brain. So I couldn't even think about what mine was, but I just remember it was all V words. It was, it was pretty cool. So listeners, you haven't listened to it. Yeah. You just heard Amber's. If you have not listened, like Angela, if you've not listened to V for Vendetta yet, go back, check it out. Cause, uh, Bill Bantz is on that episode with us. David Burns, And we all had good five-word synopsis, if I'm telling the truth. Ghost World is an Oscar-nominated film that's been listed on more than 150 10-best lists for 2001. It's achieved cult film status. It's celebrating its 25th anniversary this year. And while it is a part of the Criterion Collection on Blu-ray and DVD, it is currently streaming free on Tubi, Pluto TV, and YouTube.

9:27 And Angela, I know we initially planned this as a conversation for you, me, and the voice of reason, Amber Lewis, who was unavailable. I just want to take a pulse to see where this episode is headed. So briefly, share your thoughts on Ghost World. Because if I'm not mistaken, this was a first-time watch for you, right? Yes, it was a first-time watch. All right. If I had not needed to do this for this assignment, I probably would have turned it off. I was a bit. bored. What? Yeah. I, I, I, I was like, I was keeping your voice in mind that, you know, you, you, you were like, Oh, you know, it's really good stuff. And that, that's, you know, great. Your opinion for, but I was just like.

10:09 I. Can we go like what, you know, And then. There's some things I started thinking because I guess I had one. I didn't look up anything about about it. So that way I didn't. Even you went in fresh. Yeah, I completely did not look up anything. So I guess kind of going off the title and it being October, I thought I. Was going into maybe not necessarily a horror movie. but I thought there was going to be some kind of a supernatural. Were you let down that there were no ghosts in ghost world? Yeah. So then I was, then of course I started, I'm like, okay, I'm going to have my brain shift gears. Cause I really was kind of took the title literally since I completely went in this.

10:52 Blind and I'm like, okay, you know, you got these. You know, these two, you know, girls at high school. I, you know, I remember that, that time of my life and, okay, you know, find some kind of way of like, you know, connecting with that. And, but it was just, okay. Not it. This, this episode is interesting. I mean, the quirky, the kid there, I use that word again. Oh he's he's hating this right i know. He's like suck it a film by suck it you know there were. Interesting and i had questions and you know this and you know but it was just like so like plateau and then and then come the ending i i will say. That by the last third of it i was like okay all right well this is really.

11:38 Interesting but it was just hard like okay you just got to get to it and then Then it was like, okay. And then, of course, I was left with several questions at the end. Well, maybe I can answer those questions. I happen to love the film, and I'm going to make a case for it. But first, I want to share, I did hit Amber up, asking her for a little feedback, what she thought. And she responded, quote, when I was in high school, every girl I knew, like Enid, ended up getting me into trouble. She's snarky and hateful instead of being funny, and no one in the story seems to grow or learn anything, so the whole thing was pointless to me. And I gotta say, like, I read that earlier today, and then you're telling me your assessment. I'm feeling a little outnumbered, so I'm gonna have to play the Ebert card here.

12:31 Right. You know, I wanted to hug every moment of this movie. I really loved it. I thought that it was so on target in showing these particular characters characters and they're recognizable types and you realize that they have these big barriers of irony and sarcasm that they erect between themselves and the world yet at the same time they're smart and they're sweet and they're vulnerable and they care and then to bring in the Bashimi character and his record collection, that moment where she pretends to almost drop his record and he just doesn't get the joke and there are only two extra copies of that. This is a magical movie. Well, I don't want to argue against it because I do like it, but I do think, as I said, the dad character and the stuff with him and the relationship with Terry Gardner didn't work.

13:13 I didn't think she's... Haven't you met our teachers like that? No, I've seen our teachers like that in sitcom sketches. Everything has to have the socially improving message. Yeah, that part I thought kind of lost track. But again, I don't want to argue too much against this movie because I agree with you that its portrayal, especially of these young girls, is really, really well done. There it is. He, you know, he's backing me up. Ebert backed me up, uh, four out of four stars. Yeah, no, I read all that and the tomatoes and stuff and insane, you know, it's a cult hit and all this and that. And I just, you know, some things eventually I can get and see, but yeah, this one, I don't know, maybe another watch. I, I, I do that anytime. Soon, but, um, I'm not going to make you, um, I just, I see these two, I see Enid and Rebecca.

13:57 And I thought, I bet Amber, and Angela have plenty to say about these two girls. I wonder, were they these two girls in high school? This is, you're both, this isn't too far away from, you know, 2001. You're in high school, probably. No, I was out. You're out? Okay. Yeah, I was 21. Yeah, I was out living on my own. So you're not too, you and Amber, you and Amber are not too far away from these two. Yeah. Timeline-wise. Yeah. No, I mean, I, yeah. Well, let me ask this then. Yeah. the relationship, the friendship between Enid and Rebecca, how does it change as they begin life after high school?

14:39 I think you definitely, once you're out of there, you are kind of forced to make some adult decisions, whether you're. Ready for it or not. And Scarlett Johansson's character Rebecca she was more on the straight and narrow she kind of thought about the same things as Enid as far as the monotony of just people in general and things like that but she wanted to grow and get her own place whereas Enid she wanted more time to kind of figure things out and it's okay you don't have to have everything figured out once you're out of high school I mean good god who does you never. Do Okay, to that end though, do you see their mutual isolation as like a friendship of convenience then? Is this like, hey, we're friends because we just don't click with anyone else and once we're out of high.

15:29 School, we're moving on? Yeah, that high school would be around those people that you didn't want to be around with. You never ever see those people again if you don't want to. Like Melora? Yeah. She just keeps popping up. Oh my God, yeah. I know we got to take a break, but before we do though, two other quick questions for you. Yeah. If it's 2001 and you're spending time with one of these two, who is Angela Norris' BFF? Probably is going to be Enid. Okay. I did not. I didn't see that coming. And I think as far as from a personal connection standpoint, I related– again, thinking about that time– I related more with Enid and I wish that I was maybe as vocal or as outwardly about that. I think a lot of things that she said or she felt like I really kept kind of to myself and internalized or didn't really know how to express because of being so worried about what other people think. But then at the same point, I can relate to Rebecca because I... was kind of forced to grow up pretty quick at a young age.

16:48 And there was no, I can still complain about other people, but you know one thing. Well, to that end, let me ask you this then. You're talking about complaining about other people in this day and age. Yeah. The world of social media. Oh, yeah. Or, I mean, think about it. We binge watch content. We hate watch certain shows just to complain about them. And we follow people on social media despite how cringy they are or how much they bother us just to see what they're going to say or do. Right. Whose social media are you secretly creeping on? I would definitely check out Enid's.

17:28 I think she would have a lot of interesting things to say that wouldn't really necessarily, you know, be cringe or whatever. But then there would also be like, you know, kind of things of I would love to, I guess, you know, whereas maybe she lacks in like, you know, confidence even though she's the one. Who changes her hair color. She has a bit of a different style and Rebecca blends in more a little bit because she's kind of normal. I think the social media accounts, I think Enid is the one you want to watch because she's going to make some absurd observations. She's going to share some of her artwork. She'll probably be doing that all the time. It's fun. She can get that out and then her little side podcast will just be like a.

18:11 Like I said, one's got to feed the pocket, the other's got to feed the soul. Rebecca, who's played by Scarlett Johansson, I think her social media account, I think Rebecca's is more like sunsets and food. How to organize your desk better. It's pictures, like her Instagram is pictures of her dinner when she's out. Yes. And I'm just watching. I'm like, come on, Scar Jo, go to the beach. Yeah. Right, yeah. I don't want to see your plate of food. Just something interesting, please. Yeah. Angela, let's take a quick break because when we get back, we've got to talk about this cast. Welcome back. We are discussing the 2001 cult classic, Ghost World. Can we talk about some studio exec picks, Angela? I'm curious to see. Typically, we're never going to side with the suits, right?

19:09 Right, yeah. So can I give you one exec in particular? Mm-hmm. He had his own thoughts on who should play Enid. Okay. I got three names for you. I didn't look up any of these up. I got three names for you. Let's test drive these, see if you're liking any of them. Okay. How about Jennifer Love Hewitt? No, not for Enid. No, not at all. How about Claire Danes? No, she definitely wouldn't be a Rebecca. Yeah. Alicia Silverstone? Not even. Of the three, I would venture towards her, but yeah, that would still be hard. Yeah. Well, there's one other choice who would have been amazing, and we'll get to her in a minute. The exec, this guy, he's looking at Nathan Lane for the Seymour role. Oh, no. No.

20:04 No. I don't know what movie he wanted to watch, but it's not going to work. No. Not knocking Nathan Laney. He's a great actor, but yeah. No, he's not Seymour. No. He's not Seymour. Let's talk about Thora Birch because she is Enid Coleslaw. Did you know the last name was Coleslaw? I read that, that that was the original name because it was an anagram of the author, Daniel Klaus. Are you serious? Wait, hold on. Yeah. Daniel Klaus. If you switch around the letters, it's Enid Colesaw. How about that? Wow. Okay. So talking about Enid and Rebecca, Thora Birch was initially offered the role of Rebecca, but insisted on playing Enid.

20:52 The only problem was that Christina Ricci had already been cast for the role. And again, I think she would have been fantastic. When you think about that deadpan humor she has as Wednesday Addams. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, whether it would be in this one, but I would totally watch a movie with Thora Birch and Christina Ricci. Yeah. Well, you know, a scheduling conflict pulls her out of the film, so Birch gets the part that she wants, and now she gets to be Enid. Okay. Nominated. I'm sure she's okay with that, though, because she was nominated for a Best Actress Golden Globe. I say nominated because she obviously didn't win. Right. You're going to be really upset when I tell you who beat her that year. Whew.

21:34 Nicole Kidman, your girl in Moulin Rouge. Rouge. Yeah. At least she got the Golden Globe, yeah. There you go. Yeah. So anyways, Thora Birch, she takes over the role of Enid. That leaves the role of Rebecca open again. And Scarlett Johansson, last year's highest paid actress, she gets it. She gets the role, Angela, after she... She sent an audition tape to the producers. And this movie is widely accepted as her breakout role. I don't know if you knew that. No. Because we all, nowadays, we're all like Scarlett Johansson. She's the biggest actress in the world. But in 2001, she wasn't.

22:18 Yeah, she's got to start somewhere. Yeah. Terry Swigoff said of her audition tape that she was a, quote, unique, eccentric person and right for the part. So not quirky. Not quirky, no. She was not quirky. And you've got to remember, this is 2001, so two years later is where she transitions to the adult roles with Lost in Translation and Girl with a Pearl Earring. I mean, this is the last time you're going to see Scar Jo in the, I don't want to say kid role, but the teenager role. Because you've got to remember, she's a teenager playing a teenager here. Right. Thora Birch, teenager playing teenager. Brad Renfro. It was important for Zwickoff to actually cast teenagers to play teenagers, which I think is kind of brilliant, you know? I don't know.

23:06 He must have seen Grease and was like, nope, not my movie. I will not have 40-year-olds playing teenagers. Speaking of 40-year-olds, Steve Buscemi, he's playing Seymour. Perfect for this role. Sorry, Nathan Lane. With all respect to Nathan Lane, Buscemi is perfect for this role. But Angela, he's reportedly very uncomfortable on set playing the character. I would imagine so. I kind of wondered about that, especially when you see the later scenes. Yeah, we'll get to that. Interactions and stuff, yeah. According to Zwigoff, he would immediately change his clothes as soon as he was finished with a scene, just so he could not be the guy.

23:47 That guy. Yeah. And he may not have been comfortable on set, but I'm sure he was comfortable at the Golden Globes because he was nominated for Best Actor. I say nominated because he did lose. He lost to Jim Broadbent for the movie Iris. Iris, yeah. I think we talked about that on the Moulin Rouge podcast. I got to see this movie. Have you seen it? Have you seen Iris? Yes, yeah, because it's him and Judi Dench, and then Kate Winslet plays the younger version of the same character, Iris, of the same character as Judi Dench. It's been a while, but yes, I do recommend it. It was very good. If memory serves, I think Amber was recommending Iris as well.

24:29 So I'm going to have to see this. I mean, yeah, you got Kate Winslet, Judi Dench, and Jim Broderick. I mean, it's, yeah. Dame Judi Dench. Dame Judi Dench. That's the only three words I needed to hear. I'm in. So you kind of alluded to what goes on later in the movie, talking about the relationship with the I'm going to call it the relationship. The relationship between Seymour and Enid. Are they like-minded and compatible or did she basically wreck the guy's life? I think she kind of wrecked the guy's life. Kind of wrecked the guy's life. Yeah. I mean, whether she thought she was doing that. Yeah. I mean, intentionally or not, unfortunately, you know, actions have consequences. Like what, what business do you have, you know, with this?

25:11 And of course, you know, you're, exploiting a guy who, you know, obviously is lonely, and you set him up, you did this prank on him, and then out of, like, guilt, then you try to kind of force this, you know, friendship and things. And I think that there were legit moments of how, you know, she felt and, you know, looked at him. I think there was some, you know, genuine caring there, but. Yeah, well, I think. Again, just the age, like, why are you two And then the roommate's like, dude, you should have been like, dude, you can't hurt her. I'm not kidding. Here's the thing, though. I think you're onto something there, though, because while you see a relationship, and I'm not saying romantic.

25:57 I'm just saying a relationship. While you see a relationship start to grow, start to happen between Seymour and Eden, at the same time, you're watching her friendship with Rebecca grow. kind of deteriorate and wither, you know? And that's why I had to ask, like, are they like-minded? I think they are kind of like-minded in the fact that they're both so lonely and they're both misunderstood and they're both kind of detached from society or what society expects. But I have to push though now and I have to ask, like, so you, I mean, based on what you're saying, you kind of think what happens between them, the relationship aspect, cute or cringey?

26:40 I would definitely lean more towards the cringy. Cringy? Yeah. She's 18. He's 43. If you're looking at their ages, so questionable, right? Yes. Suspect. Right. I think I'm with you. And I don't necessarily mean, yeah, I don't necessarily mean that, you know, Seymour was a bad guy or that he was, you know, I think, you know, he generally, I can understand and see where, hey, Like, even his interests and stuff are just so niche. And then you have this girl, but, you know, vibrant, and who normally, like, why would she even, you know, talk to me, you know, with this?

27:21 And we all, we're human. We crave some genuine interaction, some acknowledgement that we exist, that we're not alone. So, I mean, I get trying to reach out for that, but unfortunately, you know, when it kind of crossed into more of a sexual side, I was like, eh. A girl like this shows up at your door at 12 o'clock at night. Yeah. And wants validation and is leading you. Don't you think I'm attractive? Don't you? Right. Yes. Don't you like me? Yes. It was an entrapment. A guy like this. Yeah. A guy like this. He's not going to have any kind of chance. You can't blame him, right? Yeah. No. No. Okay. Yeah. I mean, and that's what I'm saying. Like taking advantage of. His, you know, you know, kind of manipulating, knowing, you know, his situation, knowing, you know, his little things like that and being able to play on that even more.

28:06 He wasn't looking for like a quick, a quick thing. Cause he's like, did you really mean you? Did you really mean you'd move in? Do you really? Yeah. And then she, I'm like, I feel bad for him right there. Yeah, I did too. And especially like after all was said and done and he's holding her and she's just like, I need to go to sleep. You know, her, her face. Yes. And I'm like, Oh my God. Oh God. Yeah. I'm just like, the movie also stars Brad Renfro, Elena Douglas. Okay. Well put a pin in that because I think you just answered my question. This movie's also got Brad Renfro. It's got Alina Douglas. It's got Terry Garr. It's got Bob Balablan. I was going to ask you, is there anyone that you'd like to touch upon? But I think we just figured out who you want to talk a little bit about. Her very kooky art teacher.

28:57 Yes, kooky. Hey, not quirky. Kooky. Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, I mean, Douglas was definitely perfect for that, for, you know, that role. And I'm just I'd be like, I can't take this serious. Do you know the first thing we see her when she shows her her student film? Yeah. So she's sitting on the debt, the teacher's desk with her, you know, her legs crossed, like folded up. She took that from one of her teachers when she was in school. I absolutely love Douglas in this movie. She's definitely interesting. She's so fun. Because at the end of the day, say what you will, you have to care. about her you have to you have to know that as absurd as she is yeah she is you know uh what roberta is her name yeah you gotta you gotta you gotta be honest roberta is coming from the heart she means what she says she holds to her convictions mm-hmm I would have loved to have had a teacher like her.

30:01 Yeah, I mean, you know, just to get you out of your comfort zone and just, you know, get out, you know, what is this? I mean, that's part of, you know, growth or at least, you know, trying something. But what I also really liked is when you kind of can see, can I really take this lady seriously? You have that scene with her and the, I'm assuming she was in charge of that art show. Oh, the art gallery. Yeah, that she was, you know, trying to protect, like, you know, instead of just completely. Taken down the. Artwork you know this would be an opening for like dialogue instead of like censorship and like yeah let's have a conversation why is it invoking this and things like that and then because of that you know then it squandered um you know enid's chance to go to you know the school and then she didn't get you.

30:46 Know a passing grade for art class you know why. She was in summer school to begin with so i was like okay you know good for her yes i like that she was you know trying to you know fight for that and it wasn't just okay she's not just some Silly nut. She had heart. Her character's fun. Yeah, some substitute teachers, they just pulled out of the ditch or something. Well, a little bit about this film's background. You mentioned Daniel Close earlier. This is based off the graphic novel, Ghost World, that he wrote. He also co-wrote the screenplay with Terry Zygoff. Angela, Ghost World is the first film based on a graphic novel to be nominated for a Best Adapted Screenplay Oscar. Okay. I didn't know it was nominated. I just didn't know it was the first graphic novel.

31:28 I think that's pretty awesome. Yeah. Yeah. Have you ever heard of a film, a 1964 film called The World of Henry Orient, starring Peter Sellers and Angela Lansbury? I should with those two names, but no. I thought Angela Lansbury. I got you. You're like, oh, yeah, I remember that one. Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of stuff I like. Yeah, no, I'm not familiar with that one. It is available on Tubi and Pluto TV. Okay. Can I give you a quick synopsis for it? Not a five-word one, mind you. Yeah. The world of Henry Orient. A mischievous, adventurous 14-year-old girl and her best friend begin following an eccentric concert pianist around New York City after she develops a crush on him. Does that sound familiar? Yeah.

32:15 More interesting, the movie poster for the world of Henry Orient. can be seen on Enid's bedroom wall in the movie. Huh. Nice. I didn't find one single shred of any kind of research that said, oh, yeah, I watched this movie in 1964, and it was the basis of my comic book, or it was the basis of. Right. Yeah, that is a little bit too. A little too close. Yeah. And also, I mean, good for a teenager knowing, being interested in movies from. Oh, well, not to dwell on it, but Enid's taste, her eclectic taste in her music, in her movies. Was your bedroom back in high school when you were living at home, was your bedroom as wild as hers? Or were you more of like the, you know?

33:07 Oh, no. I had boy bands and animal pictures all over. Okay. You didn't have like... Like hip Indian 60s music or Godzilla posters? I was never cool or interesting. Never dyeing your hair green? Doing punk rock vibes? No, I did not dye my hair green, no. Went jet black once, and yeah, that was as a boy. I remember that. That was Angela as Ragnarok. No, that was actually a wig. Oh, okay. So you're saying you dyed it for real? Yeah, years ago.

33:47 I'm like, oh yeah, this scene would be cool. Blue eyes, whatever. I'm like, oh my god. Okay, well listen. I did rock hella. Listeners, while I creep on Angela's social media to find these pictures of her with dyed black hair, we're going to take a quick break. When we get back, we're going to discuss the scene. We're back. Angela, you want to talk about a scene. I'm going to ask you, pick your category. Cinematography, strong performance, pivotal moment, or other? Probably this would be for other. Other? Okay. Can you, without telling us a scene, can you give us a little, what's subcategory under other? Why did you pick this scene is what I'm curious now.

34:35 It was interesting because to me it like stood out from the rest of the film. And then my brain was trying to tie. It into the title or somehow finding like a supernatural connection. And I thought that this was part of that. And then it kind of, you know, I don't know. You had a real pivot there. Up to interpretation. I thought you were about to say a scene that I would love. I didn't pick it, but I'd love to talk about it. But now as you finish that sentence, now I'm thinking you picked the scene that I've got. Which scene are we talking about, Angela? The interaction with Norman, the old man on the bench that says, out of service. And it's basically him waiting for the bus that will never come.

35:18 Which I did notice throughout the film. And I think I read that they kind of did this on purpose to show them being isolated. That there's not a lot of no one else around. Like on the streets or in the. And I thought... is this guy alive and they can see dead people or something? Or is it, is that more of like just a, you know, metaphor basically, you know, waiting for a bus that's never going to come. Things like that. Waiting for. Let me. Just the end to come kind of. Let me. Okay. I love where you're going with this. Let me, let me sit down on the, on the, on the bench with you. Yeah. Because I had for the pivotal moment. I had Enid confides in Norman at the bus stop.

36:00 Well, look, there he is. As always. Waiting for the bus that never comes. I wonder if he's just totally insane or really thinks the bus is coming. Why don't you just ask him? Hi. What's your name? Norman. Are you waiting for a bus? Yes. I hate to tell you this, but they canceled this bus line two years ago. There are no more buses on this street. You don't know what you're talking about. Okay, yeah.

36:40 We're there. Yeah. They're daily adventures. They're routine. Hey, there's this guy at the bus stop. He's always there. And Rebecca, why don't you just ask him? And being the curious one and the outgoing one, Or the extroverted one, you might say. Enid stops and talks to Norman. Are you waiting for the bus? Yeah. You know the line got discontinued two years ago. You don't know what you're talking about. And he's always there. He's just in the background. He's always there. Yeah. So the pivotal moment for me is when things have kind of gone sideways in Enid's world. She has kind of...

37:25 She's quickly... pulling herself away from Seymour. She has lost the confidence of her best friend, Rebecca. She doesn't know where she's going in life. She's lost her job that she just got hired for. And her home life is... Her home life is... Yeah, her home life, you know. Dad's getting back with some old girlfriend. Yeah, Maxine, played by Terry Garr. Yeah. Freaking Maxine. I know at the beginning of the movie, he said, I ran into Maxine. I don't know much about her, but I already hate her. Yeah. Like, I feel like this is. Well, at the beginning of the movie, though, she's saying, my dad saw Maxine. If they get back together, I'm going to kill myself. Clearly not a fan of Maxine.

38:09 And now Maxine's moving in. Back in the picture, yeah. Everything's falling apart in Enid's world, and there's Norman. And she stops and she tells him, you know, you're the one person I can count on. And Angela, that's ironic because he's a stranger who represents the fear of being left behind. loneliness, a desire to escape. You could say he's a mirror image of Enid. And his actions foreshadow how Enid's story ends. Right. Now, you started to go down a path. And I was grinning because I was like, oh, wait, is she seeing the same thing I'm seeing? Does this mysterious bus line represent something positive, like starting over and new beginnings?

38:51 Or is it more ominous, like going nowhere in life? Never being content or maybe even something worse. Yeah. I definitely was ominous and I definitely, for whatever reason, my brain went to equating it with suicide. So. Not that I want her, would want her to do that. No, we don't want that. But just, you know, when you understand, you know, when you see, you know, if they're, you know, this, this, that, so lost and then Norman and wondering. This is a, it's a first time watch for you. Yeah. And that's where you went. Yeah. And guess what? It's a widely shared theory that Enid getting on the bus represents her taking her own life. In the late 90s, the phrase catch the bus, it was kind of a coded term for suicide.

39:35 Yeah. Now, the film's writer, Close, he's on record saying that he's heard this theory hundreds of times, doesn't dismiss it, but also feels Enid's ending is more positive, that she's moving on with her life. But just like you, Thora Birch, she had this to say, quote, Honestly, it's a sad film to me. I have a very dark view of where this story is leading, unfortunately. Yeah, and I wasn't kind of expecting it. But yeah, there was just something about, you know, like I said, that Norman guy. And like you said, when. She actually talks to them, that's probably one of the best and probably most honest conversations that she's had with anybody. And it's not even someone that she's even close to or even knows.

40:19 I don't know where to go. I don't know how to feel. Yeah. For the longest time, for the longest time. Like I said, I've loved this film for a long time, 25 years to be exact. I've always seen Enid as refusing to settle. She doesn't know what she wants, but she knows what she doesn't want. And she doesn't want the cookie cutter life like Rebecca. Right. She doesn't want to work at computer station. She doesn't want to get the apartment. She, I always saw her getting on the buses just going into the unknown and She'll find herself when she finds herself. But, you know, you're seeing this for the first time. I've seen it 50 times, and I've never went to that. But you went there, and a lot of other people went there. Which could also say more about me than it does.

41:02 I don't know. I mean, I guess, you know, I could feel that, you know, that her... hopelessness. And, and like I said, I, when I was in high school, like I. Definitely could feel more relatable to Enid and, and that, and I may not have had the same outward look. I think I, I definitely looked like Rebecca more, you know, from the outside, just to, I guess, as a way of, of, of hiding it. You know, you, you've, you've opened my, my thought process to it, but I, I still look at this as like a kind of a dark comedy, kind of a, I'm sorry, Terry. It's quirky. Yeah. These characters are just quirky. We're not... You can't talk quirky without... Can we just talk about Doug for a quick second?

41:50 What's up, Josh? Hey, give me two packs of cigarettes today. Working overtime. 16 hours. And nature's nectar. Wake up juice. Give me, like, six of these beef jerkeys. Hungry enough to chew the crotch out of a rag doll. Hey! Hey! You! How many times I tell you? No chef, no service. Get the hell out of my store. What do you think this is, Club Med? It's America, dude. Learn the rules. Learn the rules? You learn the rules! We Greeks invented democracy! Fuck you! You whiff! You're buying fear, friff! This... insane guy who happens to shop at the convenience store.

42:37 I'm sorry. How awesome, how awesome is this guy? I was like, he's in there for like two minutes and I'm like, this guy needs his own show. Why is, why is there no more of this guy? Yeah. I, I love when, when he's outside fighting with the, the store manager, he's, he's got none. Okay. The guy with his, his, his, his nunchucks, his mullet, No shirt. He's like, how many times am I going to tell you no shirt, no service? It's America, baby. Learn the rules. I think Enid says it best. Oh my God, that guy rules. He does. He's just marching to the beat of his own drum.

43:24 That guy, that character, he's right at home here. He's right at home in Napoleon Dynamite. Do you I almost feel like these movies happen in the same universe. And Doug is the connective tissue. I can see Doug going to school. Like Doug went to school with Napoleon dynamite is what I'm thinking. Yeah. Just another, another weird guy, right? He's, he's my, he's, He's one of my favorite things about this movie. Oh, yeah. No, I was like, oh, God, this is going to be funny. And then, yeah, then I didn't see any. More of him. I was like, oh. You want more Doug. I'm like, I miss Doug. And, you know, speaking of other characters, it's so funny how the memory works. Because it's like I have a hard time remembering, okay, what did I just do? What did I do yesterday?

44:05 Or whatever. But as soon as I saw the character Josh, I was like, isn't that that guy Brad Renfro? That's Brad Renfro. I'm like. I'm like, isn't that the guy who unfortunately died when he was younger? And then I looked up and I'm like, yeah. Yeah, this was towards the end. He had a couple movies after this one. Yeah. And sadly we lost him. But yeah, it's just so weird. Just the things that are lodged into my brain forever. But yeah, but I still recognize him. Dave Sheridan, the guy that played Doug. Yeah. He auditioned. They didn't ask him to cut his hair into a mullet. He showed up with the mullet. How great is that?

44:49 That is ballsy. So good, by the way. He reprises the role later in a Red Hot Chili Peppers video. I think it was for their song Hey Yo. How great is that? That's funny. Wow. Angela... Jerry's Wig Off does not have a very extensive filmography. I know we do the recommendation. This season it's kind of reversed because we're basically saying written by, directed by, or possibly even starring. Which underrated project would you suggest by this director? I'm going to go out on a limb.

45:35 I'm going to assume that you've probably not seen any of his underrated movies because you've probably seen Bad Santa. Yes. But that's not underrated. But it's not underrated, yeah. That was one of those do one for them commercial movies. Yeah, that, yeah. I've, yes. By the way, do you know why, what it was that made him say yes to doing Bad Santa? The very extensive language used in the movie. I can only imagine yes. It's like, wait, this is a Christmas movie, but we get to. Say F a lot and also talk about anal.

46:16 Yeah, he's... Settle down, Angela. We're not on the Clerks episode again. The Clerks 2 episode. No. But, you know, it's so funny that we. Yeah, my brother and I every night, because I remember when that first came out, we watched. That one together. It's fantastic. And the whole scene, yes, when the kid is in the car with Billy Bob, I was like, are you. Are you fucking with me? Oh, anywho. Sorry. I digress. Before we set ourselves up for a Bad Santa episode in December, let me make a recommendation for you. 2006. He does a movie. He directs a movie called Art School Confidential. Have you ever seen that movie?

47:02 Yeah, I did look that up and I saw the cast and I was like, okay. That one I would Angela, John Malkovich, Angelica Houston, Adam Scott, Jim Broadbent, who defeats Steve Buscemi for the Golden Globe. It's a fascinating dark comedy that examines the competitive world inside of an art school. Okay. And I promise you, if you watch the trailer, it'll make your watch list. Okay. It's even, currently it's available on Tubi and Pluto. I don't know, that's like the third or fourth time I've shelled for Tubia, they need to give us. Yeah, I feel like they need to give us some. We need some advertising dollars from Tubia, I think.

47:42 Right. Well, next time on A Film By... Going to switch it up a little bit. David and Wayne will share their top five favorite scores from composer John Debney. Angela, so far this season, we've done composer episodes for John Carpenter and John Williams. It's now time for another John. But listeners, we want to know what your favorite John Dempsey scorers are. Go to AFilmByPodcast.com to send us your answer. We may just give you a shout-out on the show and, as always, send you some AfilmBy swag. Please join us on social media. You can find us on YouTube. Please subscribe. Instagram, Facebook, X.

48:22 We love interacting with you, sharing opinions, taking your requests for future episodes, and debating great movies. Angela, it's good to have you back. Thank you. I knew you weren't going to say no to this month because we've got. Oh, we've got so many good things. We've got 300 happening on Patreon. Yeah! Oh, yeah. Oh, you just had me at Gerard Butler. Yeah. We'll hear your thoughts on Gerard Butler. And the Brave 300. I may have to have my mom come over for the viewing of. That one just to see our fun. Before we do our podcast. We've got... We got Lord of the Rings happening towards the end of the month. I know you're not going to miss that. No. And it's been so.

49:06 Long since I've had a good revisit with that one, so I am looking forward to it. Let's nerd out here for just a quick second at the end here. Are you a, I watch it every, every Christmas and it's the extended version or is it the theatrical version? Which, which one, which cut? I don't watch it every Christmas, but when I do put it on, I do prefer doing the extended. You're going to get, you're going to spend, what is it like 13 hours in middle earth? If you do the whole trilogy for the extended versions. Yeah. Yeah. It's a whole day. Yeah. We should do a group watch. That'd be fun. Settle in, guys. Get comfortable. 13 hours.

49:47 Not because I'm bored. I'm like, I just feel so relaxed. Yeah. And I finally get a rest. You're going to have your alcoholic beverage. You're going to have your blanket. Yeah, that's right. My pillow. Yeah. You'll nap in and out of the trilogy, I think. Wake me up when Carl Urban shows up. Yeah. Yeah. He's showing up next month. We just got back from Scarefest not too long ago. Now we've got Steel City Con, Galaxy Con. So is he legit going to be at. The Steel City? Yeah, he's Steel City Con, Pittsburgh. I'm not his agent, but he is slated to be there.

50:30 I've already met him. We've met him. I know. Well, you can meet him this time if you want to go. We'll take you. I told you, I've been waiting for the deets, man. If I can swing it, I will definitely do my best to make that happen. All right. Well, while Angela is making that happen, we thank you. I'm coming, Carl. We thank you guys for making it happen for us, for listening to the show, following us on social media, subscribing to the Patreon. We absolutely thank you.