Batman: A Film By Richard Donner

0:00 I really cannot believe that we are We're about to do the four hundredth episode. It's it's amazing. We've come a long way, Jeff, A lot of movies. Yeah, we have. We have. Did you realize we've done Richard Donner four different times? Yeah? We have half four Yeah, four different times. I would, honestly, I would love to do another Richard Donner episode. But I like, if you, if you if you were gonna pick a Richard Donner film, that that kind of fits into what we do, Like what would you what would you suggest? Because man, I don't know, there's some really good ones out there, but I can't think anything off the top of my head. But I was thinking, uh, I don't know, if you, like we did Lady Hawk, Me and Amber did Lady Hawk and then doing the research there. I that's when we talked about how he almost did Batman in nineteen eighty nine. Yeah, with mel Gibson. Could you imagine what that would have been like? It would have been different, but I think it would have been it would have I'd love to talk about it, but you know, they didn't make it.

1:04 And the only way that we're going to talk about a movie like that is if we were in an alternate universe. You remember the movie, but that's not who directed it. It's one of your favorite scenes, but that wasn't the actor. You love quoting the character, but that's not how the line goes. You have the right movies, You're just in the wrong reality. Welcome to the alternate universe video store. We have the hit movies you've only wondered about seeing.

1:46 Are we seriously about to record our fourth episode without a name for the show? Hey? I've offered you multiple suggestions at this point. Likewise, and you've shot them all down. Okay, well, director's cut was taken. The hop borks sounded dumb. And do not get me started on the video village. I mean that makes us mean are we really a rental store? But those are real film industry terms. You know this well as someone in the industry, I can tell you that people outside the industry wouldn't understand them. All right, that fine, Let's let's just get to it. Let's talk about a film by Rich whoa, that's it? What's it a film by that's the name of the show.

2:29 Wait, a film by Yeah? I like that, dude, It's perfect. Actually, all right. Okay, So in that case, let's talk about a film by Richard Donner, his nineteen eight nine superhero blockbuster Batman.

3:12 Hello, everyone, welcome back. I'm Jeff Johnson. And I'm Brad Kozo and you're. Listening to a film by podcast. That's right, and we're coming to you live from the back room with the local Sun Coast Motion Picture Company with a new episode in Jeff, it may be the biggest superhero movie of all time. One of the all time greats for sure. Brad, do you do you remember the summer of eighty nine when this came out? Like, I have to believe your parents took you to see this, right, absolutely? I mean I remember seeing this god several several times that summer. I still remember my mom calling us inside and handing me and my brother Batman t shirts, telling us to change because we're gonna see the movie. Did your mom and dad do that?

3:56 Oh? I mean I haven't made them do that. I had that like three at least that summer, every kid had a black T shirt with a bat symbol on it. That's right. So well, let's get into that someone, Okay, Because while the movie is a whole lot of fun. The production was anything, but it's one of the most troubled productions, with hirings, firings delays, and not one but two film scores. Well, as always, we're going to start by catching up with the cast and crew. Afterward, we'll take you behind the scenes with some film real facts, then break down several scenes and themes, letting you know whether we love it or loathe it. And finally we'll wrap up by deciding whether it's worth watching and worth owning.

4:39 I can answer that question right now. All right, Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves. I think we need to start with a brief synopsis. So although I can't imagine anyone not knowing what this movie's about, Brad, what do you got for us? We'll keep it simple. I mean. With his first step into the world of superheroes, I mean, Richard Donner made us believe a man could fly with bright colors, amazing visuals, and a message about hope. With Batman, though, he introduces another kind of hero, one who lives in the shadows of Gotham City, one who is the Night, and his message is vengeance. His Gotham City's two hundredth birthday looms close or a homicidal criminal calling himself Joker, played to gleeful perfection by Robin Williams, wages an all out assault on the city, wreaking havoc on every turn without clear motive.

5:28 Will anyone be able to stop the clown? Prince of Crime? Enter Gotham's Dark Night. Mel Gibson, Star of Man maxim Leath the Weapon plays a centric millionaire Bruce Wayne, a man who has dedicated his life to the restoration of his city by day in waging war on the criminal underworld as the vigilanti called Batman at night. Will Batman act in time to save Gotham City or will a Joker have the last laugh? Nicely done, Brad. Let's catch up with the cast and crew, beginning with the guy who gets top billing talking about Robin Williams playing the Joker. Hello doctor, as well as red Hood briefly.

6:12 Yeah, I definitely want to discuss that scene when we get to love it or loathe it. Yeah, I mean, of course Williams, you know, wasn't the first choice to play the Joker. Oh you okay, So you want to get into the controversy now with Jack Nicholson. No, no, no, No, there was someone else before him too, an actor named William von Hambig. Who the hell is Willem von Hamburg? He is Vehico. Oh okay, uh yeah, the big creepy guy him playing the Joker. Yes, he wanted to, but he was actually contractly obligated to play Vid Good Carpathon and go Esbusters two, and given the production lads for Batman, I mean, he just couldn't do it.

6:57 Honestly, I can't imagine Joker being played by anyone other than Robin Williams. I mean, they think about they've created a look for the character that is absolutely iconic. I mean, and he spends what two hours in the makeup chair every morning. He looks hilariously creepy, and yet somehow he still looks like Robin Williams. I mean, I think that comes down to him knowing how to deliver an amazing performance from under makeup. I mean I watched interviews with him citing like people like Carloff and Long Cheney as inspiration. I mean the manic energy and silliness of Robin Williams doing stand up. I mean it's basically hidden under all their prosthetics and strange voice. But it's I mean, it's it's pure joker though.

7:38 Okay, so the voice you mentioned, the voice the voice he does here, How old were you when you when you realized it was actually a Jack Nicholson impression. I mean, I don't know whether or not I realized it until you know what he did that MTV movie special with Chris Connelly where he was asked about it and then aired about the whole thing about how Warrener brothers trying to screw him. Uh was that the one where they give away a batmobile. Yeah, the Bato build that specifically was without an engine so it could be driven. Again troubled production. If I'm one on a batmobile, I better be able to drive it. But exactly Well, but back to the voice he does. I got that. I found this clip. So check out this clip of him discussing the whole Nicholson thing, and he's doing the voice.

8:22 If you listen closely, you can hear it's like a Nicholson impression. But it's what he ends up doing for the for the joker. It's really cool. Hold on, check this out now. I've all always been fascinated at the roles that actors get, and I know this might be a sore. Spot for you, but. We'll mention and then we'll talk. Okay, well the batman of the Joker role, but. I'm real sorry about it. Maybe I'll send you a couple of T shirts. Smart boy, it happened that way. I'm better than you and I'm bigger, So here you go. It happens. I guess everyone has those stories. Even even Jack's been ripped off a couple of times. So there's parts that you know are either offered. Sometimes they use you as bait and let's say, or sending it out to him and you go for it, and then they give it to somebody else because they're saying, you know, it's out to him, and he said, I had better take it.

9:11 So I read a funny story about Robin that aggravated the costume department. Do you have you heard the story about the gloves? No, not about the gloves. So, according to costume designer Bob Ringwood, when people would visit the set, you know, you know, exacts, studio execs like friends and family. They you know, they're always going to bring people in. Right, Well, every time someone would go to meet Robin, he'd take off one of his white gloves from the Joker costume. He had autograph it, and he would give them away as gifts, and this got so bad that Ringwood had to tell him to stop. Yeah, I'm sure that went overwhell Well. Apparently, Williams apologizes, he promises not to do it anymore, and then makes it a point to do it twice as often. Bob Ringwood estimates there are likely a hundred or so Joker gloves out there signed by Robin Williams.

10:04 Oh god, just imagine how much of this. No, I'd love to have one. But another tidbit about Bob Ringwood. Do you know the reason why Joker wears orange and black during the you know the scene with the smilex commercial he does, Yeah, yeah, yeah, instead of the purple green. Right, it's it's not because he's a huge Bengals fan. No, it is not, right, Yeah, I will tell you. Early in the production, Williams had asked Bob Ringwood if it was true that he specifically color match Jokers purple to the same purple of the Lakers for Jack Nicholson. So Ringwood confessed that it was true. And you know, he feels a little bit bad about this. So he asks Robin if there was a team he wanted to pay tribute to with some of the colors. It just so happens that Robin Williams is a big San Francisco Giants fan, and that is why he wears the orange and black suit in that scene.

11:02 Oh I thought it was a bank all right. So okay, So we've mentioned Nicholson a few times. I mean, I think and now is a good time as any to dig in into some of the more casting controversy. I mean, do you agree, I do. I think you should tell the listeners though. Okay, So offers for the Roller Joker went out to Robin Williams and Jack Nicholson at the same time, with Nicholson considered by Warnerburg exec as the dream pick. And remember just a few years are he you know, he gave that, you know, great performance in The Shining, So I mean they're thinking, you know, they want more of that. You know, until you brought up The Shining, I didn't see Jack as the Joker, But I'm starting to now. Really, I mean think you can't say really, I mean think I got Cuckoo's nest the way he is in like one flavor.

11:46 Of the Cooper Well, okay, okay, so now I definitely see it. Well, so the problem was that both actors accepted the offer with Williams Ziell put in place first. When Warner Boaters tried to back out of the Williams contract, it got back to Nicholson then, who immediately walked away from the project. This ultimate delays the production starts several months because negotiations with Williams breaks down. Man want a mess, but it's a fortuitous mess because. Because Richard Donner uses delay to shoot lethal weapon to and quietly recruit Mel Gibson back on board to play Batman. Now you yes, you say back on board, which will make sense when we get to Mel Gibson.

12:30 Oh yeah, I mean Mel Gibson aka Bruce Wayne aka Batman. Well, Mel was always the first choice to play Batman, but he was already signed to to return for a Leathal Weapons sequel. I mean, I get contracts and deals, but both of these movies are Warner Brothers movies. So why did why do you think you think they'd figure something out? I mean, right, I mean you, but you're you're talking about also to several hundred people involved in a mood production plus all the lawyers and as exacts. I mean, it's it sounds simple, but it's it's it's kind of a pain. Well Mel So Mel grew up in Australia, so he has no exposure to Batman. Before this movie, producers gave him a copy of the graphic novel The Dark Knight Returns as reference material.

13:20 Yeah, I mean, I know you're the comic book guy. Hear you know between us, But didn't Batman Year one come out before this movie? I mean, doesn't it make more sense from when even just. Read that I won I will disagree with that because, for the life of me, I can't find any similarities between this movie and The Dark Knight Returns graphic novel at any rate. I do want to briefly discuss the actors who almost put on the Cape and cow. Okay, so Mel is the first choice, But then the movie gets delayed several much versts filming on Leath's Weapon two, and now everyone besides Mel Gibson is getting a call from the batfilm about a role of a lifetime. I've got two I want to tell you about. Are you ready for this?

14:00 Who almost got to deliver the line I'm Batman. Well, an actor who had already delivered a similar famous line, that being Bond, James Bond. Pierce Brosnan was briefly in the running, but declined, saying, and I quote, I just couldn't take it seriously. Any man who wears his underpants outside his pants just cannot be taken seriously. That was my foolish take on it. It was a joke, I thought. But how wrong was I? I mean, I think he would have been a great Bruce Wayne, but I can't seem as Batman. But at least I mean, you know, he took on Robin Williams and miss a dautpfire though.

14:43 Yeah, yes it was a run by a fruiting. Yeah, and who is the other actor? Who was the other actor? So the other actor? This one is almost too ridiculous to believe. But Michael Keaton was heavily considered. Michael Keaton as in Mister Mom. Yes, Billy Blaize from Night Shift, Yes, the very same. I mean, I like him, but I'm gonna I'm gonna say now. Well, so Warner Brothers producer John Poppick was saying, yes, he loved what Keaton did in Tim Burton's Beetlejuice the year before, so he sent the script to Keaton, who read it out of politeness because he wasn't much of a Batman fan and Brad Ironically, Batman fans weren't Michael Keaton fans, because they flooded the studio with more than fifty thousand protest letters, one of which was signed by Batman creator himself, Bob Kane.

15:42 Yeah, and I'm telling you right now, the only place anything where Michael Keaton playing Batman makes any kind of sense, it's some alternate universe where they make crazy cast indies. But but I mean, but who knows. I mean, I guess he'd take on Jack Nicholson joker there. I mean, you know, I can't say that whether that be any good, but I would definitely watch it. Okay, So one more thing that Gibson you might not know. I mean, he played a significant role in creating the final look of the batsuit. Yeah, okay, so I know this story, but please share it for the listeners. Okay. So the first time he comes in screen tests, he just wasn't happy. He called it some of the campiest shit he's ever seen. Yeah, say that he tells Dyner if they wanted Adam West, why did they call him?

16:28 So? Bob rang One completely overhauls the suit with Mel's input. Okay, so what I truly love is Mel's idea for the eyes, because he thinks seeing Batman's eyes humanizes him, even with the black grease paint around him. So he agrees to wear white lens contacts, which effectively wipes out his pupils and it is a totally scary looking look. It totally works. Yeah, I mean the voice works too, though. I mean he makes an informist decision to alter it slightly from I mean Bruce Wayne persona and tells Donner that it makes more sense for Batman to say as little as possible and to speak only when necessary, because Bruce would want to hide, you know, as identity as much as possible.

17:12 Obviously, I bet there was some interesting dialogue cut out because of that choice. But I don't disagree with him. You know, Batman needs to say as little. As possible, right, I mean, so let's keep moving because we have we have still plenty of castmembers talk about. All right, well, you can't make a Batman movie without his most trusted confidant. Mm hmm, Lieutenant James Gordon, I. Was thinking Alfred, but we can talk about Gordon. No, no, I'm agree with Alfred. All right. Well Alfred Pennyworth Bruce Wayne's loyal servant played by John Aston. Brad, how about another Bond reference for you. Aston wins this role over Roger Moore.

17:55 So two Bond actors initially involved. I mean, I mean, I'm not saying Aston isn't good in the role, but I mean, the hell does he get Roger Moore? Well, the short answer is nostalgia. So you remember, let me take you back four years, uh, four years earlier. He meets Donner for the first time when he pays a visit to the set of The Goonies, which stars his step son Sean Aston, you know, little Mikey. They became fast friends, and Donner talks about his regret over never getting the chance to direct in Adam's Family TV episode, because you remember, Donna did a lot of TV before the movies, so the producers may have wanted Roger More to play Offred, but once Donner was involved, John Aston was the only actor he had considered, and incidentally, he joins William Peterson and Billy d. Williams as one of only three actors to appear in all three Batman films.

18:53 Right, so back to Lieutenant Lieutenant Gordon. Now, William Peterson, can we can you try to imagine a better choice, because I'll sit here and wait. I mean, the thing is he went in to read for Harvey Dent because the early draft of the script had James Gordon character portrayed much older and already in place as police could mission. Yeah, well at that point, I believe they were considering Richard Krenna after seeing him play Colonel Troutman in the Rambo films. I mean, I love Peterson in this role. I mean he's almost pulling off from his Will Graham character and Manhunter one of your favorites. Yeah, I love it. I mean it's it's not that he wants to apprehend Batman or even stopping. I mean, he just simply wants to kind of understand it. I mean that's what makes his performance.

19:38 Is Gordon so compelling? I can't I can't agree more. Billy D. Williams has a minor role you mentioned Harvey Dent. Billy D. Williams ends up as District Attorney Harvey Dent he beats out Don Johnson, Tommy Lee Jones, and I suppose you could say William Peterson, although we know Peterson got another role. Yeah, I mean it's not a big role, but it's important one because it ultimately sets up you know, the Two Face down the road. So for him to you know, to matter to us later, you know, ability Williams has to build this character up. I mean, we have to like him as the hero in this movie so we can love him as the villain and you know Batman and Robin kpe Crusaders.

20:20 Yeah. Yeah. He agrees to play the role on the condition that he'll get to play Two Face if they decide to make a sequel. So Warner Brothers signs him to a three picture deal, and Williams is on record saying he was grateful for the chance to move past his role as Lando in the Star Wars trilogy. So question, Brad, if you can only have Billity Williams, he can either be in the Star Wars universe or the Batman universe. Which do you choose? Mmm? I mean I'm gonna say Batman, you know, because I mean, when it comes down to it, I mean, I don't think any of us talk about actors immediately when Star War Wars is mentioned. I mean we talk about the special facts, the creatures and space ships, all that stuff.

21:04 I mean, Star Wars has amazing characters, but I think you remember the bigger stuff first. I mean, Batman doesn't work without strong realistic performances, so I think he has more to do and more to offer in the Batman movies. Plus he's in all three Batman movies, I mean, Starman and Star Wars. It's just the you know, I mean half of the second and then just some of the third. Okay, that's that's a good point. You may even say four Batman films because he did the voice for two Face in the Lego Batman movie in twenty seventeen. M Jeff, let's talk about this film's fem fatale. Sean Young is socialite Selina Ka.

21:44 She is bringing that blade runner smolder and steaming up every scene she's in. I want to run down the list of actress who were in the running and tell me what you think. All right, Okay, so Sean Young wins a rollover. Kim Basinger, Kathy Moriarty, Michelle Pfeiffer, Daryl Hannah Melissa Leo, and Angela Bassett. Okay, yeah, all right. I will acknowledge that it's truly a shame that Sean Young doesn't return in nineteen ninety two's Batman at Robin Cape Crusader's because she is Selina Kyle. Now, having said that, we obviously know that she ends up being replaced by Michelle Pfeiffer, So you know, put a pin in Michelle Pfeiffer.

22:32 As for the others, Melissa Leo, she's all wrong for this part, Kim Basinger, Daryl Hannah. It's interesting choices, but if I had my pick overall, it's definitely Angela Bassett. I mean, for everything Sean Young is doing in this movie, it is kind of the same. She was, you know, relegated to the love interest role and we you know, you never really get to see her in the costume is cawwoman. We saw it and it was a train wreck. Did you see Maybe you didn't see it, but don't you remember the Joan Rivers talk show thing? No? I I mean I heard about it. I never I never saw it. I mean, is it is it on the world Wide Web?

23:17 Sadly it is? I'm sorry? Okay, I'm sorry for getting off topic, but as we all know, she's not in the sequel because during pre production on Batman and Robin cape Crusader's she breaks her collar bone in a horseback riding accident. Why are you going horseback riding during pre production of the biggest blockbuster sequel whatever, So they have no choice but to recast the part, and new director Tim Burton is directing the movie. He looks at audition tapes from this movie and he stops looking once he sees Michelle Pfeiffer. Okay, but what this Joan Rivers thing though? Oh? Okay, yeah, so so Sean Young is desperate to win the role back, so desperate she shows up at Tim Burton's office in a homemade catwoman costume to get the rollback, and he has her escorted off the Warner Brothers studio a lot, and then she takes a bad situation and makes it much worse by going on the Joan Rivers talk show in the early nineties in the same costume to publicly call out Tim Burton for not letting her have the rollback.

24:27 There is one actress who refuses to give up. She is the only she says, real Catwoman, and she's going to join us today with a message to the director. So we're going to see this is a real Hollywood actress and big time. You'll all know the name. When we say so, Catwoman strikes again. A message for the director of Batman too. How dare you not make time to see the Catwoman, not even so much as granting me a meeting? How very rude of you. After all, I was in the original Batman. How dare you not even return the cat Woman's phone calls? I don't make phone calls very often, and after all, business is business, and doing good business means that you return your phone calls. It's a pretty simple formula.

25:18 It's Batman, but she's batshit crazy. You know what. I don't want to I kind of don't want to watch that clip because it'll probably change my perception over I mean, I really like her, especially in. This Well, you know, I think I think Hollywood's perception changed, you know, because looking back, she was a hot commodity throughout the eighties and then and then after this stunt. I mean, she's always she's always continued to work steadily. Don't get me wrong, but name one Shong Young movie post Batman, that isn't ace Ventura. Yeah, yeah, I don't know. I don't think I can. Yeah, okay, but back to the bad guys. I mean, I know it's a small role, but Joker's main Bob.

26:02 You, oh my number one guy. Yeah, a character actor named Tracy Walter. Now, are you aware how he was cast in the film. I would assume Donna liked his performance in h as he played the cook in City Slickers. No, no, no, that wasn't out yet though, But he didn't even audition for the role because he was Yeah, he was cast after his close friend Jack and Nicholson mentioned him to Richard donner Man. Nicholson is all over this movie. Yeah. Tracy Walter often jokes that this is the film that immortalized him. But has character having an action figure with a power kick. I mean, I don't. I don't recall Bob Goon kicking Batman at any point or anyone else for the matter, and during the entire movie.

26:52 But well, you know whatever, I had those I had those figures. And yeah, the Bob the Goon figure, did he had action kick? I don't understand it. But only one other bad guy I'm guessing you want to. Talk about, well, I mean crime boss Rupert Thorne, who's played by a guy named Frank a Leader. Now, I actually last week or this guy is. I looked him up and he's pretty much a TV jobber, showing up in about a dozen of old television shows. But you said there's an interesting connection between him and Richard Donner. I have been waiting for this, So let me take you down a rabbit hole, my friend. Now we're talking about Batman, so let me take you to the bat cave, my friend. Frank A Letter starred in a television series called Danger Island.

27:41 Have you heard of it? So? It ran for one season from nineteen sixty eight to nineteen sixty nine. The series also starred Ronnie Troop and a young a very young jan Michael Vincent. Now just listen to this synopsis and tell me you're not dying to track it down and watch it. Okay, all right? He may looking for his brother who disappeared. Searching the South Pacific for the lost city of Tobana, Archaeologist Professor Erwin Hayden, his daughter Leslie, and his assistant Link Simmons seek a treasure chest on board a sunken ship near an island in the South Pacific, which they hope will provide clues to the missing man's whereabouts. They are pursued by a gang of heavily armed modern pirates and three different tribes of cannibals. A native named Chango joins forces with the archaeologists to save them from perilous situations. Now anyways, Frank Altdor played the main character, Erwin Hayden, the adventure seeking archaeologist professor. Hmm Does that Does that sound like a family? Does that sound like a familiar concept?

28:58 I Uh, I mean okay, what does he have to do with Richard Donner? I mean or Batman? Well, Brad, All twenty six episodes of Danger Island were directed by Richard Donner. So you're telling me that Richard Donner passed up Brian Denahey and Sean Connery because of Danger Island. That's what I'm telling you. Hey, Donner is loyal to people he works with, and I'm willing to bet if a letter wasn't available, he probably would have got that guy, Steve Kahan. But Brad, I do think we've got one last cast member to mention before we move on to the crew. Right, River, Phoenix is Dick Grayson.

29:42 This is a big year for River. He's playing young Indiana Jones and Robin the boy Wonder. I mean, technically he's playing Dick Grayson because all right, just like Calin, we never seen him in the costume as Robin. I mean, don't get ahead of yourself. Not true, but but we do see him in the red and green certain Disulay costume is. One of the flying Grayson's, Yes, but not as Robin. All right, okay, you got me again. This is a pivotal moment in what has become an iconic career. He's only eighteen at the time of filming, but he's convincingly playing fifteen, you know. And Brad, it's a comic book movie and he's in a supporting role. But damn, the gravitas of the film is in no small part due to rivers performance.

30:33 Right, you know, and we know that Donner knows how to work with kids. I mean, he's just a few years off of Goonies at this point. I mean, but it doesn't matter because Phoenix has never carried himself as a really a child actor. I mean, even when he really was. I mean, so so Donna is a smart thing and he never treats him like a kid basically, And that's important because when you think about it, Dick Grayson never really actually had an actor child and you know, Diddy, he didn't really have a childhood. Well, my childhood didn't involve deathifying high wire acrobatics. So you've got a point. And as unusual as the circumstance is, he then witnesses the murder of his parents by a crazy clown firing explosives directly into the circus crowd.

31:15 I know you hate when I call out your acting roles, but I have to this time because it ties into the conversation today. So back in ninety one, you did a film called Dogfight, Yes, with River Phoenix and Eg Daily and Lily Taylor. You played a small part. What Dogfight, buddy, You're credited with. Some like that. Yeah, I think that's what it said. Tell Okay, well, Brad, hey, listeners, Brad's great in it. But Brad tell us the smoke break story with River Phoenix. Okay, all right, So we're basically we're waiting for him to finish light in the set. He walks up and he asks for a cigarette so we sat there just they're just kind of bullshitting about every day things, the weather, the nice crew and stuff like that. And I ended up asking what's it like to work with those Harrison Ford and melk I mean, I never thought i'd get a chance to ask him. Might as well, right, I have to?

32:16 Yeah? Yeah, So he said, you know, it's like being around your dad, who will let you get away with some things, and then spending time with your uncle, who lets you get away with everything. I mean, he smiled, he put his cigarette out, and he walked away. And I've always wondered between Harrison Ford and mel Gibson, who's the dad and who's the uncle? In that answer, Dan, that's such a great story. You've got so many cool stories like that, But that is a great story. I love that one. Yeah, but did you know that River wasn't the first choice for the role of Rob. No. What Stuart's first choice is Keith for Sutherlin. And he was only nineteen at the time.

32:56 Are you serious? Yeah? Yeah, now get this. He turned them down, saying he didn't want to do a goofy movie running around in tights. Well, clearly he didn't even read the script because As you mentioned, we never even see Dick as Robin the boy. Wonder right, But I mean I'm sure he knew you know it was coming, I mean it did you know? We get Robin and you know, of course in the next two movies. I'd say that covers the cast of nineteen eight nine Batman. We're gonna take a quick break and then talk about the talent behind the camera. Welcome back to a film Buy podcast. We've been talking about the incredible cast of Richard Donner's Batman, and now it's time to discuss the talent behind the camera.

33:41 So just a rundown of the major players. Donner is directing the film based off a story by longtime friend Tom Makinwitz, who you'll remember co wrote Superman with him. The film is written by Sam Ham and Jeffrey Unsworth. Another frequent Donner collaborator is the director of photography. I just want to jump in and say, this film, I mean, despite the amount of necessary darkness and shadows, is a beautiful picture. I mean. Unsworth is the guy that shot two thousand and one A Space Out to See Okay and Superman, and he's responsible for some of Donner's I mean best looking films.

34:22 You're not wrong. You're definitely not wrong. Speaking of Donner, I just can't fathom how he took on such a tremendous workload, because there's there's a significant overlap between the production of Leath the Weapon two and Batman and Dude. The fact that he didn't collapse on set either set is a miracle. Well, yeah, so time Warner CEO Steve Ross. He's had a Warner Brothers in the late eighties. In eighty seven he sees Superman for the question piece. It's like totally tank in the box office. I mean, obviously it's time for something different, it's time for Batman, but you have to make sure it's in the hands with somebody with experience and a truven proven track record. Call Richard Donald.

35:10 I mean the bulk of his filmography is with Warner Brothers. I mean, it's makes sense. Donner agrees to terms for a two picture deal, which includes a sequel to Leath the Weapon. So the plan is to shoot Batman and then head into production on Leath the Weapon two. Six months later, he calls Steve Ross with two requests. One absolutely no involvement with the sal kinds of any kind, and two he wants Chris Ree for a cameo, thus creating a shared universe between the two superheroes, and Ross agrees to both requests. Okay, so we talked about Lethal Weapon two starting basically before Batman to the various delays, and thankfully, Donner has a very smooth time working on the shoot, so much so that they nearly wrapped when work on Batman starts.

36:04 I mean, it ends up being about a six weeks where the you know productions are running, you know, you know together. Mel Gibson said during those six weeks he didn't know if he was coming or going. I mean, now, the thing is like, as an actor, you you you have to embrace that character. And here's a situation where you're playing Martin Riggs one day, Bruce Wayne and Batman in some cases on the same day. I mean that that's a tough one. So I came across a great story this morning that ties to that quote of Melson he didn't know if he was coming or going. If we got time, yeah, we got time, go ahead, all right. So they had some pickup shots to do for Lethal Weapon two, and they needed Donner and Gibson to shoot. The scene where Riggs goes into like that rage mode after they try and drown him, and uh he discovers Rica underwater already dead.

36:57 Have you heard this story? No? Okay, So I'm talking about when they when they kill Patsy kinsit's character. Oh by the way, by the way, she was up for the role of Joker's girlfriend in this movie, but they felt she looked way too young for Robin Williams. But Donner liked her so much that he he cast her as Rika von Hogendas in Liethle Weep too. But anyways, I digress. So I'm talking about the scene where Riggs, you know, he escapes and he kills the bad guys on the dock and he carries her body off, right right, yeah? Yeah, okay, yeah. So the scene originally continues and Riggs has this complete emotional breakdown. He just loses it. He's crying uncontrollably. He's yelling at God about his wife Victoria Lynn, and he's about Rica, like the man, give the man the oscar?

37:48 Right now? Why would they cut that? I mean that sounds amazing. Well the scene ends, Donner calls cut and the ad says, Dick, we got a problem and Honor has been at it for like fourteen sixteen hours straight without even looking at the guy. He says, don't tell me we weren't rolling on that, and the ad says, no, we got it, but well, look at Mel. And it's at that moment where an exhausted, overworked Richard Donner looks over at his star and sees that his tear stained face still has the black eye makeup on from when he was in the batsuit like an hour before. Once Mel realizes it, he and Donner just start like laughing, you know that cry, laughing like I can't believe this, and Donner says, that's enough for today. Good night people.

38:40 Oh god, I would Oh that would be hilarious to see. That'd be great. Me too, man, me too. I want to talk about the film's music though, Okay, the score or the soundtrack both. Okay, you know I love the songs we all you know, we all do, But go ahead and tell everyone wire just as crazy as the joker with your unpopular opinion. I'm sorry, I'm sorry, but Michael Jackson's songs for this movie suck. They just do. And when I think about the soundtrack we could have had it just makes me mad. You would honestly prefer Wham? Really, who come on? Okay, it wasn't Wham. It was George Michael and you know it. Oh and let's not forget Prince.

39:26 Well, I mean, at this time, if Michael Jackson wants to do this chund track, you don't say no to him at Night nine? Okay, yeah, but they should have because originally they had the chance to get George Michael, Prince, and Michael Jackson to provide songs for the film soundtrack. The idea was that each artist would provide a theme for a character, So George Michael was going to do the love theme for Bruce and Selena, Prince was gonna do this crazy Joker theme, and then Jackson would do the Batman theme, except he strongly suggested that he do the entire album, So Warner Brothers drops all conversations with George, Michael and Prince. Is it as good as Thriller or bad? No? But it's still good. I mean, you can't tell me that you hate.

40:12 Every Gotham getting it my Dark Night jokes on me, Brad, These socks are trash. The only decent one is Scream And even he knew that one could do better because what was it? Years later he re released it as a duet with Janet Jackson, his sister. Well you know, they sold eleven million copies. So I mean, i'd say you're in the minority here. That's fine. I'll be in the minority with Richard Donner because he didn't like Michael Jackson's stuff either. You know, if you'll recall, he was heavy into the whole synthwave pop of the time. And let's be honest, the only reason why we got an all Michael Jackson soundtrack is because John Peters thought was a great idea, and that guy does not have great ideas ever.

41:04 So let's move on to the score, because I know you're a big Chad Cochran fan, and I know how much you love his Batman score. Oh absolutely, I want to spend a few minutes discussing the score because it does have an unusual story, beginning with John Williams. Yeah, I mean, John Williams probably the greatest composer of all time. I mean, he's Donner's first choice, but he's unavailable due to commitments on I mean, got so many other projects at the time. Well, I have to imagine it's not easy for him to say no to Richard Donner, but he's already said yes to Steven Spielberg and Oliver Stone because this is the year he's doing music for Always Born on the fourth of July and Indiana Jones in The Last Crusade.

41:47 Yeah. Now where it gets unusual is that this film actually has two separate film scores. I mean, just like the situation where they hire Jack Nicholson and Robin Williams played a joker, they hired two composers too, only this producer is in checking in with that producer, and before you know it, we have two well he completed soundtracks. You know. The thing is we've seen this happen before, but usually it's on purpose. You know, maybe a director or a studio head doesn't like what he hears and they go get someone else, or maybe the director won't let go of the temp track. You know, think about Ridley Scott's Legend. The US release has that score by Tangerine Dream, and then the international release has the much better score by Jerry Goldsmith.

42:30 Right, and so here we have two guys who get their start playing in bands. Danny Elfman from the band Wo Blanco and Chad Cochrane from Yeah Yeah, I mean, do you want to start with Elfman? Sure? And let me just say his version isn't bad. I'm betting the majority of people listening have never heard it, but it's good. I just don't know if I just don't know if I think of a Batman when I hear it. Let me play a bit for the listeners. Okay, I think it's cool. It's less scary than the Cochrane score, but maybe too big and bold. I mean, what do you think?

43:32 Come on again, It's not bad, but I don't know that I see Batman when I hear it. All in all, Elfman is a great composer though. Yeah, in this case, not greater than Cochrane, though, because Warner Brothers says, here's your check. We love it, but we're not using it, so thanks anyway. You know, it's not total loss for him, though, because they do ask him to do the music for Batman, the animated series in the nineties, and if you watch that cartoon, you know how good the music is because it really does add to the brilliance of that of that cartoon. But now then the Cochrane score.

44:42 Okay, now, This is Batman. This is the music a guy needs if he's gonna dress up like a bat and beat the crap out of criminals. Yeah, I mean, criminals are superstitious and kywardle a lot. I mean they have to be because of it. If this music is playing, m they're about to have a bad night. So brat My only gripe here is what this score did. The Chad's involvement with Dysomnia, because you know, I love the band. I'm a big, big fan. Uh We've seen them several times. Do you remember back when they co headlined with Metallica ninety one mm hmm, yeah, yeah, but see, they just they were never the same after Chad left to pursue scoring movies. And I mean, I get it, you gotta follow your passion. And I'm not. I'm not, you know, challenging Chad Cochrane on this. I mean, that's not who am I to do that? But you know, over the years, and you know, over the years he has recorded some new stuff with Dysomnia. I just wish there were two Chad Cochran's because I wouldn't trade his film score work, but damn I miss his Dysomnia stuff.

45:44 I mean, well, no way would I give up bone scores for more death metal. I mean, after Batman, you got introduced some even greater stuff. I mean seven James caeron Spider Man and his music for Spartacus Blend saying I mean the I mean, those are just some of my favorites. Though you know, I was actually looking at Chad's MySpace page. In The big announcement this week is that he's involved in the new Friday thirteenth film. Now, I know he's a fan, and I dig the fact that he does everything from blockbusters to indie films and now good old fashioned slasher horror films. So he did a piece for a Revolver magazine. He was talking about Dysomnia's last tour.

46:28 He's talking about the all the music scores he's done, and when they asked him about Batman, he had this to say. Let me read this here says when I was approached with doing the score, I certainly couldn't believe it at first. I never thought someone who spent a lot of years in heavy metal would ever get that call for the score. I tried to blend the tragedy of Batman and the Jokers ongoing struggle with the dark heart of the city. It has its heroic moments, but this is Gotham, not Metropolis. The dude's awesome. Love his stuff, Jeff. Are you ready to divulge some film real facts?

47:09 Brad? There is so much and I'm ready. I quote the Joker staring down the shotgun of Rupert Thorn Tinchman when I say, give me both barrels, baby. So Batman was released on June twenty third, nineteen eighty nine, right in time for the fiftieth anniversary of Batman's first appearance in Detective Comics number twenty seven. Now, we may not have had the World Wide Web in nineteen eighty nine, but we did have magazines like Starlog, Fantastic Films, and of course Fangoria to Feenix, movie rumors and gossip. So I mean fans were aware of the trouble is behind the scene, you know. In order to combat that negativity, the theatrical trailer was hastily assembled to be distributed selected theaters.

47:51 One such trailer was seen in Westwood, California, where it debuted to an unsuspecting audience. The ninety second trailer received a standing. Ovation in a movie theater. Yes later it would become a popular bootleg at comic book conventions. Domestically, it was the highest grossing movie the year, you know. Worldwide, it finished just behind Indiandroin's Last Crusade again River Phoenix having another great year. Comic book fans will recognize the opening of this film from a popular Batman story now, although a different scene was initially shot. Robin Williams gets his hands on the graphic novel Batman The Killing Joke, which DC released in nineteen eighty eight. During the film shoot, Williams loved the Red Hood origin story so much that Richard Donner convinced Warner Brothers to let him reshoot the opening to the sum of three point seven million dollars. That's three point seven million in nineteen eighty nine.

48:51 Mind you. There's a great behind the scenes segment on the laser disc about designing the look of the Red Hood with Donner. That's really great. I mean, does he at least say, how goofy the face covering red cylinder helmet looks? No, But he does say that when mel Gibson first seen seen Robin Williams wearing it in costume, he couldn't keep a straight face because Williams kept repeating Nanu from under the helmet. I mean Mork from work. That's great. How about some details on how Batman gets around town. The Batmobile had a fair share of tinkering done to it before cruising out of the bat Cave. It was built on the chassis of a Chevy Impala, with the Impala engine, the tail lights of a Ferrari, the fuel caps of a London bus, and jet engine parts from a Harrier jump jet. The sliding cockpit was also inspired by the Harrier, with the slim windows of a gun emplacement.

49:53 It was art director Terry Acklin Snow who added the headlights of a Honda Civic to the vehicle after noticing their appealing look on his wife's car. Oh and when he's on foot, Batman, that is a fun fact. Because John Peters wanted a collaboration with Nike for product placement. A close look at Batman's boots reveals that they are in fact Nike Air Trainer threes, but they're all blacked out and Brad, No, you cannot have your own pair because they were never released to the public. Nikes that you can't buy good good, good product placement John Peters wait to be on top of it now is Jeff. This is the only live action Batman film to feature a just one solitary supervillain. But that almost wasn't the case because when Tom mckwitz was trying to crack a story, Donner's original idea was for several villains, with a mind to cast Willem Dafoe as the Joker and Joe Peshi is the Penguin.

50:54 Peschi as the Penguin would have been amazing. Yeah, I mean they reached out to him, but he declined, choosing to do, of course, Goodfellas instead, And speaking of good Fellas, at one point during the production delays, producers made three separate offers to Ray Lioda. First it was Blay Harvey Dent, then The Joker, and finally for Batman. He turned them down each time, stating he wanted to work with Scorsese on Goodfellas. Your boy, Scorsese, Yeah. Jeff, I've got a big what if for you? But before I drop it, if you know you have any other surprises As a matter of fact, I do. Uh. If you had to choose one line from this movie as the most famous, the most quotable. What would you say it is?

51:42 Oh, that's easy. I'm Batman. That line wasn't even in the script. The original line was I am the Knight. And this is going to blow your mind because the only reason we have the I'm Batman line is because of Michael Keaton. Oh come on now, I'm not making this up. During his reading, he questioned the dialogue, so Richard Donner challenged him. Listen to this quote about the line change from Donner. Let me read this here quote. Oh yeah, the line in the script the punk is, you know, he's terrified by this freaking a bat costume and screams, what are you Well.

52:28 Mike looks at the page a moment, then looks at me and says, Dick, this line doesn't work. So I says to him, so make it work, and he pauses for a minute. Then this look came over him and he dropped his voice down low and says, I'm Batman, and boy, we just ate it up. Well, I mean, who knows, maybe Michael Keaton might have been a good Batman. Oh yea man. And since I'm quoting the director, I actually have just one more thing, a quote from another big director Tim Burr at this point, you know, he was briefly considered to direct Batman, but ultimately Warner Brothers didn't have enough confidence in him. Right, So years later he was asked what he thought of the first movie, and he says, quote, I liked parts of it, but the whole movie is mainly boring to me. It's okay, but it was more of a cultural phenomenon than a great movie.

53:24 Well it's Tim now, if you can say anything nice, right, And. Of course he ends up directing the sequel Batman and Robin cape Crusader's in nineteen ninety two. Kind of makes you wonder what Donner thought of his Batman films. Yeah, all right, so listen, you teased a big what if I'm ready to hear it. What do you have for us? Okay, I've got three Batman movies that Warner Brothers almost made, And as the Joker said in the movie, you ain't seen nothing yet. Okay, So burst possibility. Steven Spielberg directing with Harrison Ford as Batman, Michael J. Fox's Robin Tim Curry is the Joker, Dustin Hoffman is the Penguin, Geenet Davis as Silver Saint Cloud. She was a love interest from the comics Bert Reynolds's commissioner Gordon Martin. Sheen is Harvey Dent and Richard Dreyfuss as gangster Rubert Thorne.

54:23 I need a moment here to absorb how epically awesome that movie would have been. It's just maybe it's just too big though. Yeah, it's very eighties now. But the second film that almost happened was going to be directed by Joe Dante, who had John Lithgow as the Joker. Okay, now that I like, But who was Dante's Batman? Get this? He wanted a movie that solely focused on the Joker, just the Joker. There wasn't going to be a Batman in the movie. I mean in the end, lift go Ou wasn't sure it would work, so he talked Joe out of casting him, which freed him up to do Madame, Butterfly and Bot basically Broadway.

55:08 I I love Joe Dante, but that is a terrible idea, is it. The I mean, think about it for just a minute. I don't need to you. You can't make a Batman movie without Batman. It doesn't work. Even in an alternate universe where mister mom is driving the Batmobile. A standalone Joker movie would fail. I mean, what's next a Batman TV show that doesn't have Batman? Is it just a show called Gotham? Nope, sorry, Joe, We're moving on. Okay, Well I left the weirdest one for the last. I mean, okay, how about Ivan Rightman doing a comedic take on Batman with Bill Murray as Batman and Eddie Murphia's Robin. It was in development for a while before I mean before completely fell apart. I mean what happened.

55:59 Yeah. Bill Murray gave an interview in which he put out all the blame on Murphy, you know, saying that Murphy refused to play rob because he wanted the lead role. He went on to say that vanity was the reason basically the film fell through. Never have I ever been so happy to hear that ego killed a movie. Apparently they argued who should be Robin. Murray said, I talked to Eddie Murphy about it, and Eddie wanted to play Batman. That's as far as the conversation went. I don't want to be the boy wonder to anybody. Maybe much earlier when I was a boy, but it was late in the you know, for that in the eighties. Also, I couldn't do the outfit. Eddie looks good in purple, and I look good in purple. In red and green, I looked like one of Santa Elves. There was just a lot of vanity involved in the production. It wasn't going anywhere.

56:48 Hold on, so they both looking him purple? So was it Joker he's talking about? Or Batman? Honestly, I can't tell you. I mean, maybe Bill was a revered the detail is wrong, or maybe iron rightman head pat Man wearing purple. We'll never know. Well, one thing we can know is what we think about several key scenes and themes worth mentioning. Join us after the break for our Love It or Loathe It segment. Welcome back, listeners. We have talked about the cast and the crew. We have taken you behind the scenes with our film real facts, and now it's time for Love It or Loathe It? Are you ready?

57:30 Brad? All right, let's do it. Let's begin. So we briefly mentioned it earlier. Let's talk about the film's opening. It's kind of a prologue, if you will, showing us the Red Hood heist that goes horribly wrong. Now, is this is right from the Killing Joe comic book? Right? This is like straight from that? Uh mostly yes. So in the book it is definitely Batman that's involved in the accident, but here we don't see Batman outright, we just assume this shadowy figure is the Batman. I mean, damn good job finding a guy that looks like young Robin Williams too. I mean it's it's it's Robin Williams' voice. I mean they did that with you know, Superman with Christopher y voice and you know, the young car Lark Kent. It's a great action sequence. You know, the mudic colors are nice touch.

58:20 You know. It sets the tone for warden Folds, which is basically a detective story. Batman is first and foremost, I mean a detective. I mean I love that. I love that. I never would have thought the red Hood looking that comic accurate would work, but it really does. You know, he's got a real sinister appearance. It translated beautifully on screen, and I only wish we had more time with him. I definitely love it. Kay. Now, this actor is the same actor we see in Bruce's Nightmare, right, because Donner keeps saying in the shadows, but I mean it it looks like him. Oh yeah, it's him. I'd say it's him.

59:00 Okay, So then the story does imply that Batman and Joker are responsible for creating one of another. I mean, Donna really doesn't come right out and say it, but you know it's what we're meant to think. I mean, how do you feel about that? You know, coincidence I mean or irony? I guess I suppose. I'll cheat and say that While I loathe the idea of Joker being responsible for the death of Bruce's parents because it's because it kind of steps on the Red Hood stuff, I do love that it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. I could I could see people walking out of the theater nineteen eight nine questioning whether it was Joker who shot his parents or some random mugger. Now, let's let's talk about the Gotham on Ice fundraiser. We've got another scene with Thorn, we get mel in the tuxedo showing why he was the perfect choice to play Bruce Wayne, and then of course Brad Enter Sean Young's Selena Kyle bringing all the.

1:00:00 Heat and the first thing I love about this scene is discovering who Selena Kyle is. Now we know that she eventually becomes Catwoman down the road, but this scene is great because we're watching her move this exhibit slash fundraiser, looking at all these priceless diamonds and jewelry, and we're listening to hushed conversations whispers from other guess gossiping about her, about her family scandal and questioning whether wealth you know, where's her money comes from. It kind of feels sorry for her, But I mean that shot of her looking at the you know, the huge blue diamond where inside the glass, you know, looking out at her, and then you know, Bruce approaches her and she spins around. Only now it's Bruce's point of view and we're looking at her as they walk away. We hang on the case just long enough to see the diamond is missing. I mean, it's almost like a magic trick and we immediately understand it.

1:00:56 But she's there. To Robbie, I love it too. Uh. Selena meets Bruce and then we transition to Thorn's guys getting a little rough with her. Uh. That guy is maybe a bit too handsy with her for a PG rated superhero movie. You know what I'm talking about. Yeah, yeah, yeah, retrieving the diamond from where she was hiding it exactly. But the purse gets opened, all these rubies and Jim spill out. It's a great shot because the lightning strikes and we get Batman's shadow off the pavement, which it kind of looks like the bat signal, and he he trashes like what four guys, the last one of which gets the I'm Batman line.

1:01:40 It's it's awesome, absolutely awesome. But how about jokers attack on cert Di Sola? You know, the Grayson family death. I mean, it's it's funny in a question nowadays? Is because you know, Circo sol is like this, you know, huge attraction, you know, even in Vegas. I mean I think they, yeah, they have a residency there. But I mean as a kid, I I don't see Circus like that. You know, where's the where's the elephants, where's you know and all that stuff. You know, I understand it. It's weird. I looked it up. Uh. Circus Lay actually premiered in June of nineteen eighty four, so it was relatively brand new and never seen before. I gotta say, I think Donner using them instead of a regular circus gives Gotham a kind of other worldly vibe, I don't know, futuristic, maybe ahead of its time for sure. Yeah.

1:02:35 And when you think you think of that now and you think of yeah, this stuff they did in Batman. Yeah, uh and this, well obviously this is this movie put them on the map, and mad made that attraction of like super popular. Right when Robin Williams emerges from the other clowns in that moment and reveals himself to the crowd, I mean he's really at his absolute best. I mean right there, Oh, the the very acrobatic clowns didn't I didn't know Robin could move like that. You know that that is definitely not Robin. That is a good old fashion just you know, hammer trickery, you know. But the cartoony fireworks shooting gun, I mean that that that's pure joker. I mean, I love the gimmick because you do have to laugh, but then you stop laughing and he aims it at the audience. And basically Golf's the front row and dazzling fireworks and you know Engulson in Flames.

1:03:31 Well, meanwhile, River Phoenix and the Grayson family are just sert deslaying all over the place. They're taking out joker thugs until it's Bob the Goon. He kind of he kind of draws jokers attention to him, and then a big burst of green and red fireworks explode and they're dead. I honestly think this scene has more action than the Big finale, to be honest. I mean another thing that works is that you see Bruce Wayne jump in action help but there's that much you know, he realizes it's got to restrain himself a little bit. You can't move and jump and you know, be punching around like Batman, you know, wearing a you know, your quarter zip sweater because people are going to connect the dots. And that slight hesitation look on Mel Gibson's face just in his mind he knows his hesitation caused the death of the flying Grayson's.

1:04:21 Well, it's perfect for the character development because without that guilt, it honestly doesn't make sense for him to volunteer to take Dick Grayson in. And plus River Phoenix is just so damn good in the moment, he's taking on all the responsibility for not acting fast enough. I love the dialogue between them. Here. Bruce says, uh, I'm sorry, son, I wish I could have done more to help. I should I should have, and River Phoenix gives the line, don't feel bad, mister Wayne. It's not like you're trained for this life. I am. I'm the one who should have done more. Brad Robin the boy Wonder is born in that exact moment. Bruce Wayne knows it and we know it.

1:05:07 Okay, do we love Bruce's nightmare? I mean we see his parents gun down, you know, love it or loath it? What do you think? Love it? If only for the fact that they had Adam West and Julie Newmar playing Thomas and Martha Wayne, that is just fun fan service. And hats off to Adam West for that amazing mustache. I mean I love it too. I mean I love the offered stuff here. You know, Brewster is awake, Sweeny sweating, panicked, and there's Offerd just making him a drink. I couldn't confirm it, but I'm almost positive that's an old fashioned right. I think he's making it. But I'm sorry, continue continue.

1:05:50 I think it would have been easy for them to just let offer be in the background, you know, just the butler, but this scene shows he's more than that. He's family. And yeah, I mean I wasn't overly kind about John Asten when we talked about casting, but he is really good here. And the fact that Alfred is the one responsible for Dick Grayson being brought into the Bat family is a nice touch. I mean, nothing to really lose, you know here at all? Oh, agreed, Absolutely agreed. I've got one more scene, so do I Oh, okay, well, I think I know which one you're going to mention, so I'll go first with the big finale talking about Gotham City's two hundredth anniversary parade. Wow, what an epic set piece.

1:06:39 Yeah, and to think that that whole city scene is about four feet tall. This is nineteen eighty nine, and the set design and effects honestly shouldn't look this good, but they do. I mean, I'm not saying I want to live in Gotham, but you you just you never get bored with the architecture in this film. Yeah, I mean, you know, the moment when Joker releases the SMILEX compound all the green mist is just I mean, it's it's everywhere. Yeah yeah, I mean they lost two days of filming because the tie mixture was you know, wrong of course, and everything and everyone was unexpectedly turned yes screen, yeah yeah, they said. Robin william showed up on it set an hour later. He looked around and said, wait, what am I doing? A Batman movie or the Incredible Hulk?

1:07:26 You know he oo from around. He has to be the most fun you can possibly have on a film set. Uh. And I give him credit for his physical stunts because you do see that it's Robin Williams taking some of those tumbles during the showdown with Batman. Tell me you caught that best of times? Not? Uh? No? Okay, So when Batman is down and Joker takes off his jacket, he does the Jack Dundee dance scroll. I mean you didn't notice that? Whoa, You're right, it's it's the one where he does he does it for his wife and the best of times. So yes, Jack part smoking? Yeah, holy cow, how did I miss that?

1:08:08 I've seen this movie so many times and I still appreciate that what we get here is a believable fight because Batmanager. I mean, yeah, the Joker is fighting dirty, but that's to be expected. You know, Brad, he kicks him in the bat nuts. It doesn't get dirt, It doesn't get dirty than that. You know, I've never understood Selena Kyle. She just happens to be there. I mean, but I guess we have to see Sean Young, you know, one last time. You know, Lett Dinans know she's still here. I mean, I don't mind it, but I mean, to be fair, it doesn't make sense, but it didn't take away from the scene. And with that there is just one last scene to love or loathe? Am I right? Uh?

1:08:53 Yeah, okay, I mean you my best William Peterson impression. We're not the same pal. I'm I'm a badge, You're a bat William Peterson as Lieutenant Gordon confronting Batman and kind of laying out some ground rules. Yeah. We so we can see that Batman is injured and but Gordon has kind of got him covered. He makes the choice to protect him because he knows, I mean, think about he knows that his daughter Barbara would not be alive if Batman hadn't interfered that Gotham harbor. So you know, I like what you said, like about the ground rules because they they kind of define what will become their modus operande moving forward. Absolutely love it, Yeah.

1:09:35 As do I you know what I load though, I mean it's something we really haven't mentioned. What about one of these scenes? No, no, no, no, just just in general, what's that Mel Gibson is Batman. I mean, he's he's amazing in this. He's more amazing, of course than nineteen ninety twos Batman around and Cape Rusader's. But they don't bring him back in ninety five for Batman or A. I mean, Warner Brothers should have made that happen. Hey that well, it's on him though, you know they wanted him back, but he was ready to move on, and instead of a third Batman film, he chose to direct and star in Braveheart, which is an incredible movie.

1:10:19 But I'm with you. It's always tough when they change on an actor for an established character. But I thought he was contract you know, like contractedly obligated to do it, though, I mean that's what I thought. Well, he so he was, but Warner Brothers restructured as Batman deal, so instead of him doing one more Batman film, he had to do a three picture deal and those movies ended up being Conspiracy Theory, which I thought was great Edge of Darkness, and then an uncredited role in Father's Day, which technically did see him reunite with Robin Williams. But I'm with you, I would take another Batman over those three.

1:11:03 Yeah, it's too bad him and Donner kill off Riggs at the end of you know, Leath the Weapon two, because he could have done a few more of those. I mean, so leith a Weapon three, I mean with an absolute critical, huge commercial bomb that could have worked with ris. That Leith the Weapon three, that is one bad movie. I mean, I think having Murta still not retired but promoted the police captain kind of worked. But then having two cops on the edge being forced to work together and see who was going to out crazy who? That was just kind of stupid. Well, I mean, what's done is done. I mean, I mean, I'd say we're done for this episode.

1:11:46 All that remains is whether Richard Donner's Batman is worth watching and worth owning. Clearly the answer is yes to both. Ah, But the question is, my friend, are you ready to upgrade from that tired, worn out VHS copy you own in favor of the amazing thirty fifth anniversary Collector's Edition laser disc. No, I told you I like look. I like my movies looking like the way they did when I saw him in the theater. Okay, I happen to like the film grain and the sound that occasionally pops and crackles. I know, you guys think it's crazy, but that cinema in its purious, you know, purest form from you know, this cinema nerd eye.

1:12:30 But you're missing out on so many extras, the featurettes, the audio commentaries, the deleted scenes. Ah, but they're so big. I'll tell you know, I'll tell you this. When they finally come up with a laser disc that's maybe the same size as a you know, like a CD. They will never be able to do that. You're you're talking about compressing way too much data onto a seat, like something the size of a CD. What what would you even call that? I don't know. I mean VHS? What does that stand for? Video home The mean video home system? Yeah? CDs or compact this digital video disc? Yeah, something like digital digital video disc. But a DVD that that sounds absurd.

1:13:13 They would figure it out. They come up with a cool name you know for it. It would work well, Listeners, If you'd like to figure out where we got all this incredible information and these great stories from behind the scenes, We're happy to send you straight to the source. Tell them about it, Brad. Okay, this episode would not be possible without a copy of Dark Knight Silver Screen, A History of Batman on Film by New York Times best selling author Van Allen Plexico. I gotta say it's it's the most comprehensive book ever written about I mean, all three Batman films. I have my copy. Also a quick nod to mister Plexico.

1:13:53 I happen to be a huge fan of his heist books, which means I'm beyond excited about Miami Heist coming out this summer, which is based on the first book. That was book. I saw that preview. I mean the Naxi Gold in the casino with the guy from the from the James Bond movies. That's the one. Listeners. We hope you've enjoyed our conversation about Richard Donner's Batman, and we welcome all of your questions and your comments. That's right. We love talking film with each and every one of you out there, so add to the World Wide Web and find us on MySpace, Friends, Sir or Brad's movie blog, Cinema. Nerds, and next time on a film buy.

1:14:50 Yeah, so I got a. Question for you. Yeah. Yes, it's weird that Warner Brothers have have been sitting on the Batman fran chis they haven't really done anything with it. Think about what Paramount did with with Tom Cruise in that Iron Man movie. Like people still want superhero movies, right, Yeah. It's still a bankable commodity when it's done, rights, James Cameron spider Man, perfect example. Perfect film, perfect film. I think the big hope was that everybody wanted this dream world where you got Iron Man and four and Hulk and everybody cross singing over give. Do you realize how much money that would cost?

1:15:32 Well, there's no chance that we'll never see that because the movie studios, all the movie studios are not gonna get together because Fox owns one and right, you know, Paramount owns everyone everyone had like Marvel when they when Marvel went bankrupt and went out of business, they sold off all all the characters that don't ever like like an Avengers movie is is impossible? Never Yeah, maybe you know, maybe one day, maybe one day for like our kids. Yeah, only in an alternate universe. My friend Leonas