Darren Aronofsky - Black Swan

0:00 Are you familiar with the French word marred? Marred, marred m E R d E. You you always correct my French pronunciation. So now I don't know. I don't know mad, mad mad? What is? What is mad? It means shit? Okay? Would it surprise you to know that? That is what dancers tell each other before going on stage. They wait, like they say, they say marred like. Yes, you know, like actors will say break a leg.

0:42 Yeah, break a leg, you know, but you don't really want. To say that to a dancer. No, that would not be appropriate. So as like you're going on stage and you do your little pre stage ritual, you know, some of them high five and do a little dance or whatever, and then they married. I'm a I'm looking like Gudenoff in my tights. I'm about to jump on stage and do puirwets and what have you. And you you look at me and you just say shit. Well I say marred, and I'm like yeah. So here's the thing. In late in the late eighteen hundreds, people traveled to the Paris opera ballet and horse drawn carriages.

1:28 So if there was going to be if it was a big show and there's going to be a big audience. There would of course be many carriages and a lot of horseshit right in front of the building, because this is what happens when you have horse drawn carriages. So the dancers would say marred, meaning there's a big crowd tonight, good luck dance. Well all right, all right, Well in that case, let's uh, let's cut right to the marred. I want to talk about a film by Aaron Aronofsky, his twenty ten underrated psychological thriller Black Swan. Hello and welcome back.

2:35 I'm Jeff Johnson, I'm Amber Lewis, and this is a film by podcast. So a quick shout out Amber to Instagram user jj rbs nineteen eighty five. Now, look, I'm gonna be upfront, Amber. I think we could do a lot better with our social media. You know, we post, we just don't post every day. We don't have you know. Yeah, we're researching, We're doing a lot research for these movies. But but I did want to call out jj rbs nineteen eighty five, who had a comment on our post for uh Lee Daniels the paper Boy. It's it's oh my god. It's been been a little bit since we talked about that one, but we did.

3:24 We but because I just thought about that episode the other day because I well because I kept texting you Ballets to watch. Oh that's right, and I was like, if. He says one word, I'm going to be like, look, I sat through ninety minutes whatever the hell that was. He's awesome. Uh. But here I just wanted to I just wanted to call out this uh, this Instagram user. Uh. They commented on our posts, saying, before yesterday, my mother and I were watching The paper Boy on TV. I already had watched this film in the cinema twelve years ago. This film, it's entertaining. So you know, we thank you JJRBS nineteen eighty five because some of us agree with you me some of us might not, but it.

4:10 And I'm glad that you watched and. You shared absolutely. So, speaking of watching Amber last night the ninety seventh Academy Awards were held, I know you watched it, and I'm curious. I predicted a Nora. Your thoughts on it winning Best Picture. Well, you know it was not my pick. Conclave was my pick. But you know that Academy not asked me entertaining. Nonetheless, so right. Yes, yes, for sure. Yeah, you know, The Substance was nominated for Best Picture, and it always makes me happy to see a horror film get nominated. Yes, the Academy has recognized only six other horror films with a nomination for Best Picture, and Amber, I know you've seen all of them. I know you love all of them. I'm talking about The Exorcist in nineteen seventy three, Jaws in nineteen seventy five, the Silence of the Lambs in nineteen ninety one, the Sixth Sense in nineteen ninety nine, and Get Out in twenty seventeen.

5:15 I mean, you've seen all these, you are. All like amazing. But I feel like, you know, even a less than one hundred percent drama can get nominated, But to be a horror movie and get nominated, you have to be like above and beyond the greatest movie ever. So I said six. Uh. I didn't mention The Blacks. I didn't mention Black Swan. It was the fifth horror movie to be nominated for Best Picture. U it was up against Winter's Bone, True Grit, Toy Story three, The Social Network, The Kids Are All Right inception The Fighter one hundred and twenty seven hours and the King's speech, which did win the.

6:00 Oscar Yeah, and then should have. So okay, so you just answered part of my question I was gonna say, is is black Swan a horror film? Sub question? Did the did the right film win the Best Picture in twenty eleven? So clearly you're you're sayingn Inception should have won. Yes, But more importantly, is black Swan a horror film because that's what it's designated as. Yes, it's you would be confused if you were watching it thinking it was a ballet film, because it's tangentially about ballet. It is one hundred percent a horror film, like Rosemary's Baby is on the same shelf. Absolutely well.

6:46 Darren Aronofsky was nominated for Best Director for Black Swan. So let's talk about him for a bit amber If you catch any behind the scenes documentary stuff for features, if you see him on talk shows, interviews, always clean cut, you know, maybe a well maintained mustache, short hair, always got a slick haircut, but he routinely does not shave or cut his hair while shooting his films. And if you watch like the behind the scenes stuff, he is one scraggly looking dude. As long as he bays, I'm sure he bathes.

7:27 Yeah, it's only a matter of time before we see him direct a superhero film, because back in two thousand and one two thousand and two, he worked alongside Frank Miller on a Batman Year one film adaptation where he had hoped to cast Joaquin Phoenix as Batman. Funny how that turned out. To say that ship sailed. It certainly did. He famously was attached to and ultimately left production on twenty thirteen's The Wolverine. He didn't want to be filming outside the country for a prolonged period of time away from his family, which I can I can respect that, you know, and worked out pretty good because James Bengal took over for The Wolverine and it's pretty pretty sensational as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, he was.

8:16 Also coming MCU stuff in Atlanta, so you can just hop on down to Atlanta. Maybe that'll work out for him. He was also considered for two thousand and six's X Men The Last Stand, two thousand and nine's Watchman, twenty thirteen's Men of Steel, and the proposed Gambit film that never happened. So like I said, you know what, Yeah. It's his time. We need like an Agatha, which kind of girl power. Movie like there there there may be a girl power movie coming, but it's not gonna be Agatha. I'm telling you that right now ain't gonna make it. I'm sorry, but he could he you know, he could be DC's answer to you know, maybe a new Wonder Woman. They gotta have a New Wonder Woman film at some.

9:03 Point, so Superman as well, reboot them all. For rebooting Superman, Batman, the whole Gang so Amber. He claims that his one DVD, if stuck on a deserted island, that he could watch over and over again, would be Time Bandits. Not a bad choice, not a bad choice, I think right there. It does. It does. Back in twenty seventeen, speaking on the state of cinema, he was quoted as saying, if we want something new at the movies, you give them something new and they say, what the hell is that. The more these films succeed, the more chances we get weird ones made.

9:47 I love that. I love it too. And when you think about his filmography, and I know you and I are gonna clash a little bit on his filmography, but it speaks to his work, I think, especially for Black Swan. Right, yes, yes, it's not like anything else. Well, for the listeners that need a refresher or maybe aren't aware of this film, you want to you want to give a little synopsis. Sure, Nina is a talented but unstable ballerina on the verge of stardom. Pushed to the breaking point by her artistic director and a seductive rival, Nina's grip on reality slips, plunging her into a waking nightmare. So Aeronovsky had read the Double a Petersburg poem by Fyodor Dostovsky, and you would like the linguistics thing.

10:43 I can't help. That's that's one of the reasons why you were hired to make the proper Okay, who is it again? Is it Fyodor? Is that right? Dostoyevsky? Doss All right? Anyways, a Russian guy wrote a poem. He liked it, okay, But he sees Swan Lake and learns that one dancer is performing both the White Swan and the Black Swan, and he loves the duality of it. He makes the connection to the poem and the idea for this film is born. Now I know we're in your wheelhouse. This is I mean, it's I thought it was my wheelhouse because it's like a psychological horror film, but it's more your wheelhouse because we're in the world of ballet. And I might have had this as like a little little footnote, a little hey, let's talk about the background of the film. But I'm putting it front and center here. And if you don't know what I'm talking about, I'm talking about the dance double controversy because and I'm gonna quote here. Let me, let me, let me, let me just pull up your.

11:52 Message as say, scroll back in your text. Yeah you wrote bruh. I'm just for warning you do not not all capitalized, by the way, do not fall for the propaganda that Natalie Portman did all her own dancing on this episode. It's just going to devolve into me yelling at you. So I was like, well, I guess we're gonna just get this out in the open immediately. So Portman's body and dance double Sarah Lane, made a public statement in twenty eleven that she was instructed not to give interviews until after the Awards season to ensure that Portman would get all the attention and dancing credibility.

12:40 This is this weekn agree on right, yes, okay, because the last thing you want when you know she could Portman, you know she's she's in the running for Best Actress. They don't want n She's not. In the running for Best Dancer. Okay, okay, let's I get it. The Academy does not have that award yet, but they don't want to take away from her performance. I get that. You know when when actors and actresses go all you know, they delve into the world of their characters and they learn something or they do something insane to get the part. I get it. I get it now. However, to your to your point with how much of Nellie Portman is dancing and how much of Nlly Portman is not dancing, my research indicates that choreographer Benjamin Millipi is a Millipie Millipede all right, co star Milacunas, and the director himself, Darren Aronofsky, they all debunked the claims that most of the dancing scenes are Sarah Lane. Millipede said quote. There are articles now talking about her dance double, Sarah Lane, that are making it sound like she did a lot of the work, but really she just did the footwork. The is it in quick? What's what's a fuet?

14:02 It's a turn where you kick out. You're standing on one foot and you kick out your other foot. Okay, pivot you around, Okay, so on point. And here's the thing in Swan, Like in every ballet, there's always like one step sequence that's really a signature move for that ballet. That's like, that's the move for Swa's the. Thing that everybody likes kind of waits for. Well, not just a fuet thirty two Okay, you're on one foot turning thirty two times. That's that's way too many times. But so he's he again, let me, let me finish his quote. He says, but really she meaning Sarah Lane did the footwork, the fuets and one diagonal phrase in the studio. Honestly, eighty five percent of that movie is Natalie. Now that's his quote, now me, Lacunis said, quote, Lane wasn't used for everything.

15:00 It was more like a safety net. If Natalie wasn't able to do something, you'd have a safety net the same thing I had. I had a double as a safety net. We all did. No one ever denied it. And then lastly Aronofsky said, quote, here is the reality. I had my editor count shots. There are one hundred and thirty nine dance shots in the film. One hundred and eleven are Natalie Portman untouched. Twenty eight are her dance double, Sarah Lane. If you do the math, that's eighty percent Natalie Portman, So you know, eighty eighty five whatever. Now I want to what's what's what is your your rebuttal, miss Lewis, Well, my. Rebuttal is nowhere in there does anybody talk about how much of Natalie Portman is her shot from the waist up? Okay, So anytime I think they're all just spinning a tail to make her sound fabulous. She did work hard, she did train for a year, she did do a lot of the you know, presentation, and she looked like a dancer and she moved like a dancer. But anytime you see her in a mirror from the back, from far away on stage, that is not her. That is Sarah Lane with Natalie Portman's face digitally imposed.

16:27 Over top, digitally posed. Hold on, now, this is this is a famously low budget for this film. You're saying they spent money on digitally, But. It's not like a close up where you have to really, you know, have it perfect. It's her from like fifth Row Orchestra, and you're looking at the stage. You know you can't see that well, so they don't. It's not like it's that hard. And Sarah Lane looks remarkably like Natalie Portman. If you're watching the movie the scene where uh Nina is after she gets the part, she's walking to the subway and she passes a girl walking past her, that's Sarah Laye.

17:10 Okay, would now be a good time to expose the fact that you and Sarah Lane are lifelong friends. You danced together, you skated together. I'm kidding, all right, Look, I don't know. I'm gone, like I say it. I think Natalie Portman, I think she did work her butt off. I think Neilakun has worked her butt off, you know, But there's a difference between being able. I mean him saying it's quote unquote just the footwork, like are you kidding? Just standing appropriately alone as hard? Like, well, just the footwork. Can I ask a question, We're gonna cut to a We're gonna we're gonna cut to a break here in a minute, But do you want to ask one more question since we're talking about footwork? What's uh? You know?

17:56 You you come from this world? What what's the deal with the scene where they're taking these brand new shoes and they're just basically just they're they're like destroying them. I don't understand what's going on there? Can you can you walk me through that? Yeah? Is that a real thing? That is absolutely a real thing. You go through a pair of shoes like every couple of days. What, Yeah, And what you do is every dancer is different. So some of them, you know, like you rip out the inside, you mark up the bottom, you bang the toe box on the ground to soften it. You'll sew stitches around the point to help it grip on the floor better.

18:38 There's a scene you see her spraying it with water that loosens the satin. You have to sew on your ribbons. Then you dig the toe box into some rosin to roughen it up. You've bought like men's dress shoes before, like they're slippery when you first get them, so you have to kind of suffer scuff up the soles or you go flying and fall on your butt. No, I don't scuff them up. I slide across the dance floor in the you know. But okay, so I from the world of baseball, I can I can tell you. You know, I'd buy a new new glove and into it, I would massage ma shaving shoes came into it, and then I'd throw the ball into it. I'd wrap it up with a rubber band.

19:23 With a rubber band. Yeah, it's the same. Well, I mean that makes sense. But like that you you know, it makes sense because you played baseball, you didn't dance. I'm just saying, like, I'm like, what I just assumed as she didn't like her shoes, and she's like, well, okay, because she's like destroying them. Like there's a scene with like broken glass. I was like, yes, the last time I seen that happen, it was Van dam and Kickbox here when yipping his gloves and glue and broken glass to fight the guy. Like, so okay, that's a real. Yes, that is a real thing. You distress your your. Ses, all right. Well, more on tow shoes and toes when we return, uh after these messages, welcome back, we are discussing Darren Aronofsky's Black Swan, so Natalie Portman playing Nina Sayers. According to Aeronofsky, I mean he's giving her a lot of credit for this film. The film was made due to her dedication and enthusiasm. Amber. You mentioned she had trained extensively for this. We're talking about dancing five hours a day, six days a week for a year.

20:27 She paid for it all because at this point there's no movie. That's just the idea of a movie. And I'm sure it didn't help. I'm sure it didn't hurt that she she trained as a ballerina from ages four to thirteen. So yes, you know, here's what blows my mind. Though. We we've watched her grow up on film, right from the time of the professional leone. She's always had this this slender physique. Right, She's very tiny. I think she's only like five feet tall. Yeah, and she loses twenty pounds to look more like a ballerina. And when you're watching this, like you can literally she's I mean obviously she's clothed. You can you can count her ribs.

21:10 Yes, she is so painfully thin. Yeah, I like she's living off of carrot sticks and fruit or something. Well, I mean you have to be because you're an athlete, but yeah, I mean that much athletic work, it just takes down nothing. It's almost sad to see her though, like so emaciated in this and I salerinos are supposed to be really tall, very tiny, but wow, I mean, I. Think that's something that's kind of fortunately not what it used to be. It used to be, you know, you needed to have an eating disorder, where now it's companies have embraced more athletic looking dancers, more fit and strong dancers.

21:56 They realize the health benefits of that. Okay, but I think it also fits her character as well. Her character has anyting disorder. Her character has an anxiety disorder. Her character has a lot of disorder. Character has a lot of disorders we'll get to. I'm just looking at her and the physicality she has in this role. I'm reminded of another awesome dancing movie. I wonder Showgirls. Oh I thought you were gonna say Flash Dance. I was like, I'm talking about Showgirls, where like there you know, like the the guy running the show is like he's weighing the dancers and tell him they got to lose weight or they're fired. Is that? Is that a thing that happens in the world of ballerinas.

22:39 I mean a lot of times they'll say, you know, you might want to visit the nutrition. You know, they try to phrase it in that way. But I'll tell you the the most real toxic for me moment one of them, anyway, is in the first company class that she takes. Yeah, when Vincent Cassel comes in and he's talking about Swan Lake and he just starts tapping dancers on the shoulder, and you can watch Nina like having a breakdown because he didn't tap her. Do you have no idea what that means? What does that mean? Is the tap good? Is it bad? What am I supposed to be doing? And then you find out the taps were bad if you didn't get tapped.

23:21 Yeah, the room he reverses, and that. Happens so often. It's so sadistic. Oh my gosh. Well we'll get to him in just a minute. I have thing to say about him. Uh but Natalie. So, Natalie routinely sustained injuries, usually involving her left toe, that would delay production. It happens so often the crew referred to them as a Natalie Portman's left toe delay, and then later it was shortened down to portmanteau. Wait are we are? It's the word for suitcase, so it's a little pen they made there.

24:03 Okay, okay, her character suffered. You mentioned she's got all kinds of issues. Her character suffers from dramatillomania or compulsive skin picking. I think it's used to horrific effect in the film to convey her metamorphosis into the Black Swan. Yes. Do you think it also serves a dual purpose in betraying her nervous breakdown or part of her nervous breakdown? Well, I think it is one of your You get a lot of clues early on that she has severe anxiety problems. Yeah, you see her like vomit early on.

24:50 You see her scratching at herself early on, and it's all of that is clues to her need to control in her obsession over being perfect. And even in that, like I said, that first dance class, the ballet mistress is walking around and she's like, Nina, you're perfect, relax mm hm, And you can just watch her go like her face is like relax. What does that even mean? I don't understand Vincent Cassel as Thomas Leroy. Has this guy ever not played a jerk? Like I meet him so much. He shows up an any movie and like I gag a little bit because I'm like, oh God, what's he gonna do this time?

25:33 I'm so elated to hear you say that. I thought we might clash a little bit here. I was prepared for you to go, oh, he's so dreamy or some full shit. And he I mean every time I see him in a film, and you know, because I I kind of looked at his filmography and basically every time he's on screen, I just want to I just want to punch him in the face. Same now. And that's he's supposed to be a sliine ball in this movie. So having that reaction, I think is a testament to his acting. Possibly, yes, but Antonio benders and you Jackman were both considered for this role. Could you imagine the film with one of those two knowing their backgrounds and dance by the way, I mean.

26:17 I think Antonio Benderis would have been really good, because he's a real good But I would never have been able to look at Hugh Jackman the same like it would have taken me a long time to get over Hugh Jackman playing this well. As much as I would have loved, yeah, as much as I would have loved to have seen either one of those guys in this role, I gotta be honest. I think they're a little too good looking. And I'm not saying Vincent Cassel is Quasimoto. I'm just saying he's got that look of like euro trash douchebag. Yes, just enough to where you could understand why someone would want to be with him, but you could also see how he's He's easily repulsive. You know he based his performance on George Ball Is it balachine or balachine balanchine? Okay, I'm over three. Uh this is this is the guy that co founded the New York City Ballet. Yes, Cassell said Balasin was a control freak, a true artist, using sexuality to direct his dancers. So I guess you know you understood the assignment. If that's if you're basing your role on him, Amber, Let me let me educate you a little French chas last the little the characters last name uh L E r O Y, which you know is Leroy. It's not it's a nod to the French LeRoi,

27:47 which means the king. Yeah. This is significant since he is accustomed to referring to his angu as his little princess. Which, if that doesn't make your gag. Yeah, and more more to help you with your French Angenoux also happens to be a French word, which means it describes a young, innocent woman in film or literature. So I get it. I did some of my French homework for. You and you said it well too. Thank you, thank you, thank you. Uh. Milakunis playing Lily, the adversary slash frenemy slash understudy. Okay, I have a thing, Okay, go for it.

28:29 First of all, she's perfect, yes, absolutely perfect love for in this movie, like so sexy, so perfect, everything about her. Her attitude. Here's the thing. Yeah, I'm telling you, Lily is only real in like three scenes. Okay, Okay, the. Rest of of Lily is like an imagination. I'm with you. There's a lot of weird shit happened in this movie where you're like, did that was that scene real? Or is it very like gaslight? Yeah? Did it happen? Did it not happen? I'm absolutely with you. That was what I decided on this most recent like four times watching hit this week.

29:13 Yeah. Well so Blake Lively and Eva Green both auditioned for the role, didn't get it, and I'm glad. Yeah, nothing against it. They're both great actresses. But Miela is fantastic. She is. The minute you see her dancing with her hair down, yeah, I was like, that's it. That's the girl. That's it right there. Yeah she Now. Nalie Portman suggested her for the role. All she did was a video chat on Skype with aeronofsky They have they have a conversation. He offers her the role over Skype. Didn't didn't see her dance, didn't have her read. She just gets he wasn't casting dancers, so that's true.

29:55 Now, she trained with the ballet instructor for three months. She goes five hours a day, seven days a week to learn how to dance end point on point, yes, on point? What's okay? I listened clearly, I just on the toe Okay, that's what the with the toe box thing? Yes, okay, all right now. She also had some experiences with ballet as a child. Is it do all little girls go to ballet classes? I mean I think it's pretty common. Okay, all right, like you know, you try things out and. Yeah, you did ballet, right. I did? I did. I did ballet because my hips turn in uh huh. And the doctor thought like I was gonna have to have surgery and all this drama.

30:40 And my mom was like, mmm, let's parr in ballet and see how she does. Because my grandmother was a ballerina. My mom was a ballerina. So my mom's like, let's try to naturally just train her body to do what we wanted to do and Powa tour because that was absolutely the way to go. See, it's March third, we're at the start of women's history months. So clearly we're going to discuss a film where an actress is gonna win the Oscar, and clearly we're gonna have a female co host. But all that's moot. It's a moot point because you're here because you're you. You you were a ballerina. Who else am I gonna talk to you? I can't talk to him God Hoffman, right, he could surprise you, he could he. You know, there's there's male ballet dancers, yes.

31:28 Well, and football players famously often take ballet, because. That is true. They need destretch and leap and do all kinds of. That is absolutely true. Now like her co star Noli Portman, Milikunas also loses twenty pounds to look more like a ballerina, which again she is a small actress already. And I just it kills me that these women are subjecting their bodies to. Well and famously. You know, the camera adds ten pounds, so can you imagine how skeletal they looked in real life? Like Mela, Mila Kuna said she lost the weight by crash dieting and chainsmoking.

32:12 Yeah she did. She did not take a healthy route. But you know she didn't. But when when she wrapped, she stops, she stops smoking. She said that was the best decision she ever made in life. So good for her. But she didn't give up the alcohol because she was so certain she wouldn't win the Golden Globe for her performance that she didn't even bother to write a speech. And she claims she did plenty of vodka shots and a limo on the way to the ceremony. So kind of kind of I feel like like Lily and Me and and Mela, maybe the same same person. She's just blind herself. Yes, very relaxed, likes to party. Yeah, someone who is not very relaxed or likes to party.

32:54 In this film, Nina's mother, Erica, who is played with gusto by Barbara Hershey. Yes. Now, Meryl Streep was initially considered for the role. No, thank you, No, you know you're not you and I agree, we're not big Street fans. Barbara Hershey is so good. She is just so subtle and diabolical and the things that she brings to give you the history of their relationship, it's just amazing. Can we can we talk about the the online fan theory about her character? Have you have you read this?

33:39 I mean my theory is that she was sexually abusive to Nina. Well you have just hit yeah, so that there's this fan theory that suggests that Nina was or is being sexually abused by her mother. You know the bedtime and when you think about it, like the bedtime routine is is a little ritualistic. Well, and she dresses and undresses her and then there's like one scene where she's like kind of wearing like a sexy bedtime lea nightgown robe, kind of thing, and she says like, are you ready for me? Yeah? Are you ready? Yeah? I was like, what are you wearing? Like that's something I would wear for if I had a guy coming over, like.

34:23 A little obsessive to my. Adult child's bedroom, which I wouldn't be going into my adult child's bedroom anyway. Yeah, like messing her undressing my adult child. Like Nina has to find the way to wedge the door so she can't open it. Oh my god, that's a sexual predator. Well, when she's in the bathroom, she has to put like the clothes hamper in front of the door, like, yeah, you have no privacy, Like she never knocks, she just walks in. And then the whole thing with the cake is really toxic. Yeah, But then there's the little things like like did you catch it? Both Erica and Lily referred to Nina as sweet girl. And then there's like the flashes of the face.

35:04 I knew that Erica did, so I didn't know that Lily did. I don't want to jump ahead to note worth these scenes. But after their supposed sleepover, Yeah, when Lily's kind of being condescending and joking with oh, sweet girl, did you have a fantasy about me. You know, Oh I missed that. And that leads to your whole your theory of like some of this stuff with Lily maybe didn't happen, you know, because there's the whole flashes of faces, like you'll see her mom, or she'll see Lily and then all of a sudden, she'll see her own face or they'll switch. You know, there's a lot of weird shit happening here. Yeah, she is just breaking completely down.

35:45 I I only wish, you know, I'm happy we're starting the month of March off with this episode, but I wish there was a way that I could have pushed this one back, because in three weeks I get to meet and speak with Barbara Hershey, oh my gosh, and I definitely am gonna be I'm gonna be asking her about the role of Erica. Yes, you know, me and you we got to talk off off Mike. If you if you got anything you want me to mention to her or ask her about, I'll absolutely do that for you. Moving on, uh Wanona ryder blink and you miss her almost She's she's playing Beth McIntyre. She's like the She's the Angenoux that has aged out of the star role for uh Leroy. Yes, she's only on set for ten days to film her role and she's only, like you counted, I think she's in like four and a half minutes maybe.

36:37 But let me tell you, she makes an impression. Hell of an impression, doesn't she. Uh. The others considered for the role were Parker Posey, which I don't think so, and then former Aeronofsky Leading Ladies Rachel Weiss and Jennifer Connley. I could have seen either one of those do it yes but and no offense to one own a writer. If it would have been one of those two, I would have wanted to see them a lot more in the story. Yeah, I feel like they would need to build their drama where Winona is great at just coming in and like she's throwing stuff in her dressing room and getting drunk at the party, Like she just comes in like a wrecking ball, and I feel like that's more her style.

37:23 Yeah. I do love their moments together. I gotta be honest again, I'm gonna call it showgirls like you got you got to know me and Cristal and then this is. How you and I are different, because do you think show Girls. I think all about Eve. Yeah, that's I see you. We're going different paths here. I don't know. I'm watching this and I'm like, man, i might watch Showgirls after this, all right, before we just evolves into debauchery. I'm gonna call it one other one other guy here, and again, such a small role we got, you know, Nolly Portman, who will become Thor in the future. She's going up against the Winter Soldier himself.

38:09 Sebastian Stan is in this playing like a club guy Andrew yes, trying to pick her up. Weird to see him, wasn't it. I know he's so young and innocent. He's you say, you say innocent, and I'm thinking sketchy because he just looks like creepy club guy. No, I've got his friend looks sketchy. He charming to me. All right, Uh, he's in one scene. But it was just It's one of those things where you go back and watch a movie. I mean, this movie is celebrating what it's fifteenth anniversary, so that's right. It's it's kind of cool to think, Wow, fifteen years ago, we didn't have Sebastian Stan. We did, we just didn't know it. Yeah, so he was just random guy number two at the bar.

38:53 Yeah, there you go. Let's talk a little bit about the film's background. Well, before we get to that, you got someone else, all right? Who you got? That we sort of mentioned already. Nina's dance partner, Benjamin Millipede, her husband. He married her. He is the cher for the Paris Ballet and they fell in love making the movie and got married. And then how dumb is he cheated on her? And why would you cheat on Queen Amidala? Kind of horror, Like it's it's kind of a thing.

39:35 Dancers can be very free. Yeah, it's a bummer, but I love that she was just like yeah, bye. Well good for her for for leaving the guy. Yeah. Can you imagine, though, cheating on Queen Amidala. No, I you know, I mean I never had the option to date Natalie Portman, So had I had I had that option, I definitely would not have cheated on her, like like like mister Millipede, you know. So well, let's talk a little bit about the film's background. So the film screenplay originally titled The Understudy, which immediately makes me think of Seinfeld. It began as a story about the New York Theater where I guess they could have said break a leg instead of what was it? Shared married? Yeah, mid but they changed it to ballet after Aeronovski saw Swan Lake, which we talked about. The planned budget for filming was just under thirty million dollars and in the end they only secured thirteen million to make the film.

40:42 That is that's a very low budget. I mean for two thousand and ten, that's that's pretty low right. Well, and that tells you that nobody got paid anything. Yeah, well, that's why I mean, I guess that's why Nalli Portman is paying for her lessons a year year out before the movie's made. And speaking about Portman, we kind of discussed how she had multiple injuries. Pay for like the physical therapist. Well in a way, so she actually she dislocates a rib during one of these lifts with mister Millipede and she calls for a medic and the producers tell her they didn't have a medic on set because they can't afford it. So she obviously this upsets her a little bit, so she sells them, if you can't afford a medic, then get rid of my trailer and hire a medic, and the very next day her trailer with all its frills, it's gone, but they have a medic on set. They actually brought a physical therapist in to examine her. Aeronofsky asks her to stay in character and let him film it, and they include the shot in the movie the final cut, because you know this, see I'm talking about where they like, oh, yeah, this woman is digging her fingers into her like like her fingers are like knuckle deep into her, like into her rib cage. I'm like, yeah, please stop doing that.

42:06 To Natalie Portman, that looks like it hurts a lot. She says her diaphragm was like clenched so like she basically had like a Charlie Horse in her abdomen. It it looked painful, but I thought I thought it was kind of cool that she was. She's a good sport. And she's like, yeah, film it and put it in the movie. If you want pain, that's real. Like you dance broken, you dance no matter what, like I Bershakoff danced with a broken ankle one time, like. Who Mikhail brishnak Oh, Yes see, I know I know a little bit of Boulet. I know one guy. I know a guy I know Alexander Gudenoff. I know him, yes you did. You don't know him for his dancing, though, yeah.

42:48 I mean I know him for three awesome movies, you know, Witness, the Mighty Pit and Die Hard. Moving on, though, It's been speculated that the body horror aspect of this film was strongly influenced by David Cronenberg's nineteen eighty six classic The Fly, which amber we obviously covered on our limited nineteen eighty six series. Yes, and luckily you did it without me, because that movie makes me want to barf like a chicken. I wouldn't I wouldn't ask you to watch Brundo Fly. I don't think you could handle that'd that's a lot. Yeah, no, I can't. Even Like I'm glad that I've seen this movie so many times because even having had some of these injuries like the split toenail and everything, like, I cannot watch it. It's so awful.

43:38 I'll tell you some of the some of the scenes, like like the nail clipping scenes just unnerved me. Breaks me out, Like who clips their figernails with those scissors like that? Like little surgical scissors. She's and bar her she's doing it so she's she's literally clipping like yeah, like aggressively carefully cutting. She's ugh, yeah, he meant like the split tone. Now look, if you want to see Nalie Portman, uh you know, don't watch it for sexy Naaley Portman. This is a broken, emaciated Naly Portman with some very bruised looking feet. Yes, not my thing. This film was the Academy's thing though. Twenty eleven Academy Awards, it's nominated for five Oscars, be it Best Picture, Best Directing, Best Cinematography, Best Editing. Portman was the sole winner. She beat out Nett Biding, Nicole Kidman, Jennifer Lawrence, and Michelle Williams. I can tell you the Academy got it right.

44:42 Oh yeah, that's an impressive list, though it was. I mean, I'm not saying she blew the doors off of all these other amazing actresses, but I'm saying, you watch what's her movie? Like, I agree with it only winning that award. Yeah, when you watch her performance based off the other actresses I just mentioned, she clearly, I mean the Oscar was hers. I think I think at the beginning of the season when everyone's like, okay, for your consideration. I don't think anyone realized like that they had a chance against her, right. Yeah, And I think it was one of those I'd have to look, but I feel like it was one of those where she won everything leading up to it as well.

45:23 So let's discuss some noteworthy scenes, which will of course include what we think is the pivotal moment I'm gonna cheat, You're going I'm gonna for once, I will break the rule. I'm just looking at my notes. My first note all scenes with her mother giving me a real Carrie vibe. Yeah, I mean it's a very dysfunctional mother daughter story. Yeah, like Carrie's mom, I feel like hated her. And I don't think I feel like she protected her. She was overly detective and hated her for what she took from her. You know, but Barbara Hershey has there's a there's a great moment where, you know, as Asnally Portman's character is becoming the black Swan, you know, she's getting a little more aggressive and she makes that snide comment about what what career?

46:20 What career? Yea, Barbara Hershey should have been a little more shitty about it. She should have been a little more with mov marri marrired, she should have been a little bit more marrid about it. But she has this like hurt, like this this hurt in her voice where she's like the career I gave up to have you, you know, and we know, like Carrie's mom was like, you know, kind of betrayed, like the guy left her and yeah, I don't know, I. Just yeah, they're both nuts. They're both nuts, right, yeah, so exactly exactly, All right, let's talk about uh and Leroy. I came to ask for the part. So she approaches Leroy, you know, after you know, she gets to our audition. It doesn't go as well. She goes into his office wants to ask for it, and then he kind of forces himself on her because she because again he's a slide ball, and she instinctively just bites him. Yes, but he likes it, I mean because he's.

47:23 Yeah, I wanted to cheer her a little more, but it really wasn't her standing up for herself. It was like just a knee jerk reaction kind of thing. But I'll tell you what that scene happens. All of the time. It's I mean, you feel you feel sad for Nina because what she she's there, she's not trying to be a whore, you know, no, no, And the other dancers they're all like, yeah, what did you do for the rule? You know? You know, Beth is like how did you get? You know, they're also they're also mad about it, and you just feel your heart's breaking for this, this, this this Nina who at this point is a victim. She is the victim of the.

48:05 Yeah, and you really do feel like I feel at that point like is there anybody that is on her side? Is there anybody that's not going to abuse this person? And then later on she's on the subway and that random guy is being disgusting. It's like ride the damn subway, Like, come. On, that's the If there's one thing I'd like to change about the movie, that's the subway scene where that guy is just being absolutely gross. It would have been nice to see like a little bit of the the Black Swan come out of her and maybe do something. That guy Well, then I think it like primes her for the next Yeah, so. It does it does? Uh? You gotta listen, we gotta we gotta do it. We gotta talk about uh, Nina and Lily spending the night.

48:52 So my pivotal scene is from the moment she leaves with Lily until the next oh okay o. That whole sequence for me is like this is the hinge. Okay Yeah, because Lily comes to apologize, her mom goes super creepy for a second, and then she's had it. She grabs her jacket and she's off to go clubbing with Lily. She's taken. I forget what drug it was, but she's she's dancing. But I don't, probably never do, so I wouldn't know. I'm not. You know, it doesn't matter what I think was going on. It's not my place to tell you. Took a happy pill, is what she took.

49:35 That house music's bumping, and you know, we got the lights and everyone's just sweating up on everyone and making out. And she gets home and then uh, there's a moment between. Yes, it seems like she returns with Lily. Yeah, and she has another confrontation with her mom and then they go to her She and Lily go to her room and yeah, some time together. So I gotta tell you. I in twenty ten, I was dragged to the theater by my girlfriend to see this, and I'm like, I just I gotta take one for the team here, I gotta watch a movie about ballet.

50:22 And when this scene came on, I looked over at my girlfriend, who was just awe struck, and I had the biggest grid on my face. And I leaned in and I said, this movie's awesome. And she put an elbow into my rib cage that I probably needed the physical therapist that now, like Portman needed to fix my diaphragm. Yeah, it's a it's a it's graphic. I mean, let's let's be fair. It's an adult taste. It's an adult movie. Yeah, don't watch it with your kids. But it's shot tastefully considering what they're doing. Portman stated it was really uncomfortable to film the sexually explicit scenes, but she believed they're necessary to show Nina's discovery of self pleasure as part of her evolution. I agree with her. Yes, you know, this is her coming from art.

51:12 Yeah, going like at the beginning of the of the movie, she's like the equivalent of like thirteen years old. Yeah, she's very repressed yet. And she's becoming a person, becoming a woman, becoming herself through this whole you know experience. Even even the creepy director Leroy, he says, hey, I want you to go home and touch yourself as part of her like her research, and you're like, someone punch him in the face. Yeah, But then she goes and does it, you know, and that that's a that's a horrific scene just because it ends with her mom. Ugh, let's move on. Let's move on. Yes, I'm gonna agree with you though, by the way, that's that's the that's definitely the pillow.

51:56 She's a completely different person afterwards. After that scene. She is black Swan as far as I'm concerned. Let's talk about Nina. By the way, listeners a negative thing. No, it's not a negative thing. No, I mean, let's talk about Nina visiting Beth in the hospital, Okay, where. She's one hundred percent thinks she killed her. Okay, well, hold on, slow down. So I love this moment because she's in a panic right because you know, she has you know, I know how it feels. Now what do I do? Because she is now convinced that Lily is out to get her and take her role and now she she relates to Beth, you know, washed up has been Beth.

52:37 Everybody's out to get you. Everybody's out to take what you have. Yeah, So, so Beth is not going to offer you emotional support, much like Crystal would in Showgirls when nobody goes to visit her in the hospital. Yeah, after causing her accident. More on show Girls later, maybe yeah, no. My friend Dan would love it. Okay, Well, so Beth responds with a nail file where she basically just starts jamming in her cheeks. Yes, now here's you have a theory, and I'm with you on your theory because I think you're right Natalie. You know, as Nina runs out of the out of the hospital room in terror, but when she gets outside, she looks down and in her hands, she's got a bloody nail fire file. So she kills her, right, I think it's kind of left open her. Maybe she killed her, maybe she didn't. You know, But this movie, it's it's taking you for this weird, twisted ride because there's a lot of stuff going on, like you think it's happening, but maybe it didn't happen, Like like Nina and Lily spending the night together and her her sexual awakening. As it were, it didn't happen, or at least Lily tells us it didn't happen. So I don't know. I think I think she killed Beth, though I'm with you. Yeah, So that leads me to this. Let's talk about the film's ending real quick, you know, ambiguous or not. Now there's something going on here. Portman wasn't happy with the placement of the blood on her tights from the stab wound, commenting

54:11 that it looked like she was having her period now. Aronofsky then explained to her that he intentionally wanted the blood there to symbolize that Nina had become a woman. Therefore, Natalie Portman suggests that Nina does not die at the end of the film, seeing the wound as symbolism for the character maturing into an adult woman. So my question to you, does Nina die at the end of the performance or does she live and become the big star that takes Beth's place. What's happening here at the end? Well, I don't hate the menstrual period theory just because I know it makes men squirm and I would love for that too. In the movie just to make that gardal, I think it would be hilarious. But no, one hundred percent think she died.

55:00 Okay, so. The self harm. She's been doing self harm, anxiety. Escalated and stabbing herself, and and also like she was like never happier than when all of a sudden she's in pain and she's crying and. And she finishes. Yeah, because back when. This was not a perfect performance. She fell in her ass, so you couldn't say, like this was the best white Black Swan that ever happened, you know, But she. Gets the standing ovation, she. Gets the ending, she gets Yeah, yeah, I totally think she died.

55:45 Darren Aronofsky agrees with you. He says, look, think what you want, but she died. And I know you haven't watched the film, but her ending is very similar to Mickey works ending in The Wrestler. Oh really, now, his. I'm gonna you know, we'll get to it here in a minute. His is much more well, it's probably grosser, No, it's it's much more uplifting, it's much more motivating. We'll talk about that when we come back. Let's take a quick break, Amber, Let's let's let's wrap things up here. If someone was unfamiliar with Darren Aronofski's work and they had just watched Black Swan and they look at you and they say, hey, you're the voice of Reason. What other films should I be watching that this guy directed?

56:39 What are you gonna tell him? I'm gonna tell him to ride the Black Swan wave and go on YouTube and find American Malay theaters black uh Swan Lake with Jillian Murphy and sit there for an hour and a half and just be completely mesmerized. That's what I'm gonna. Say, listeners. There's a scene in Black Swan Amber had alluded to where she she falls. She she messes up the routine, and there's a cut. Actually hold on her partner screws up and. Either way, either way, either way, there's a there's a scene where they screw up on opening night. They cut to Vincent Cassel's character off stage looking at them furiously for screwing it up. And if this was a video episode, you'd see me looking furiously at Amber for not recommending. Yeah, well, here's the thing.

57:37 I usually get really excited when I see a movie like this and I totally love it, and I think it's completely amazing. I don't want to watch everything that this person has done. And then I look at Arnovsky's filmography and every single other thing he's done turns my stomach and I'm like, ew, I don't want to see any of that. Okay, So this is like this weird thing that I've never seen anything else. Okay, So you mentioned I know, when we were talking off my couple of days ago, you mentioned Mother with Jennifer Lawrence, which I thought was terrible. I will never watch that the hell? Oh see, I thought I thought you were saying you did watch that, and you were. Whoa gad what happened?

58:19 And said not a good movie. So listeners, don't worry. For those of you that don't want to watch a bunch of ballet, I'm here for you. Let me hold on you. You had your time, madam. I wanted you to talk about Darren Aronofski, and you didn't, so well I cannot. Here are three films I would recommend to anybody that wants more Darren Aronofsky because obviously you and I both are are in sync that this movie Black Swan is fantastic. Yes, and he's you know, a great auteur with a great singular vision. It just other than this movie. His vision is not.

58:59 For me, okay, But I'm gonna try and convince you, all right, you and the and the listeners. So here's my first recommendation. In two thousand, he does a film called Requiem for a Dream. Now. Ellen Burston was nominated for Best Actress for her role. She loses to Julia Roberts that year. But I'm telling you right now, Ellen Burston gives a tour de force performance, and Amber, that's that's more French for you. Tour de force. Yes, good job. You will never see Ellen Burston do anything better than what she does in Requiem for a Dream. Now, Well, I do love her, okay, Amber, I'm gonna I got two things to say here. First, you, Amber Lewis, do not watch this film, which is currently streaming on tub and Pluto TV, because Amber, You're not gonna survive it.

59:54 It's all about like people that are drugs. It's it's it's about it's it's the lives of four people interconnecting that are all suffering from addiction. With some, with some it's heroin, with some it's its diet pills. Now, if I can contradict myself. Amber, this is a must watch movie, and I would love to hear your thoughts about Aaronovski's incredible direction, this beautifully damaged cast. But more more than anything, you should watch it for Ellen Burston. She's so amazing in this I don't think you can handle it. No, listen, she is blowing Ellen bursting, and Requiem for a Dream is blowing the doors off of Ellen Bursting in the Exorcist. Man, I just if there was a supercut of all just her scenes, I would I would find that and and let you watch it.

1:00:43 But but I'm telling you, I don't think you can handle the movie. But damn is it I I I'll say this about it. You watch it and you immediately want to take a shower because you feel kind of dirty and scumming. Huh. If you're drug free, you know why you're drug free. And if you are on drugs, you know that you're about to quit them forever because of what you watch in this movie. Wow, it's dark. It is dark. It's a great watch. I'm not gonna say it's a rewatchable. You know, watch it every summer, every winter. I'm gonna watch it and then I watched it again just a prep for this, and I was like, ugh, all right, moving on. No Madega two thousand and eight, he does a movie called The Wrestler. Both Marissa Tomey and Mickey York were nominated for Academy Awards for their performances, as they should have been. Amber, this movie will break your heart, but it will also lift your spirits. You know, I grew up as a kid, I watched wrestling. I loved it.

1:01:42 And this is one of those See this is one of those movies that kind of gives you like a peak behind the curtain on the sadness, you know, the things that happen to these guys that weren't smart with their money and weren't smart with their deals. And Mickey work just doing amazing work. Here has an ending kind of like Black Swan, where he he he goes for his his glory, he goes for the glory, goes for this big moment in this match, and you're like, he's gonna die and maybe he does, and maybe he does it. You just don't know. It's it's ambiguous, kind of like Black Swan. Lastly, I will tell you Amber, and I think you would like the Wrestler. Like I said, some really good performances. I think you'd like. It has a really good song by Bruce Springsteen on the soundtrack. Lastly, twenty twenty two, A twenty four did a movie called The Whale with Brindey Fraser. Amber nominated for three Academy Awards.

1:02:33 I know Hong Chow never stop crying. Hong Chow Okay, Hon Chow nominated for Best Supporting Actress. She is absolutely amazing in this movie. I wish he would have won. She should have won. Honestly, That's that's where I'm on it. Uh. It does win Best Makeup, which if you watch the movie or if you've even seen the trailer, I'm immediately concerned for Brendan Fraser. I'm like, what happened to Brendan Fraser? Because it does not look fake. I mean, the makeup effects in this movie are outstanding, and of course Brendan Fraser. He wins the Oscar for what I will say as one of the greatest performances I've ever seen. Wow. I mean, you know, everyone's talking, like like when he go out the Oscar for this, everyone's talking about, oh he's back, you know, and it's like we got the Brendan Fraser renaissance, you know, kind of kind of similar to Keiho Kwan's. Yeah, it's and you watch you watch the Whale, and you ask yourself, why the hell did we miss out on Brendan Fraser's last ten years? Where why wasn't Hollywood giving him all the roles? Because he is so good in this it I'm gonna tell you something.

1:03:40 It will it's upsetting and it will break your heart, but it's motivating. It's motivating in the way The Wrestler is where at the end of this movie, I watched it, and after I took a couple of days to absorb it, it made some better help. It made some better healthy decisions in my mind. You know, I start thinking, like, I don't want to have a stroke or a heart attack or this or that, And I see where choices that maybe you're making now can lead to his character's life and his and his fate in this movie. But I'm telling you not just him, and you know, not just Hon honk Chow, but Sadie Sink, you know from Stranger Things, Yes, she plays his estrange daughter in the movie.

1:04:26 Because the whole movie is about him. Trying to connect with his his daughter. He's this reclusive you know, the. Kind of synopsis and it just sounds so heartbreaking. It is, but I would I would say give it, give it a shot, because it is gonna be heartbreaking. You're gonna be You're gonna cry. But I think you're gonna love the film. Honestly, Amber, I know you love Black Swan. I need to. Yeah, actually, I I own this. I got I got the I got the Blu ray on this. It's got some cool behind the scenes stuff on the more physis of the Black Swan on the direction art director is in there a lot. The cinematographers in there a lot giving you all kinds of tricks.

1:05:08 Something I didn't pick up on the first time watching this, or I should say rewatching it, because I definitely wasn't paying attention to it in the theater. The use of mirrors, yes, in every scene, every scene. So hard to film. Oh gosh. I would tell you listeners, if you if you like this movie, get get a get a physical copy of it because the behind the scenes stuff is so cool to watch. The art director she is basically building the set. They block the scenes and then she has to go in and switch the set around to where they know, like, hey, the reflective surfaces won't matter, and this won't be seen, and this, you know, really some really cool stuff on there. I can't I can't recommend it enough, honestly, And as far as the film goes, you know, like I ever said, you know, I might put you in the mood to watch all about Eve.

1:05:57 I think if you're a fan of the highly underrated Paul Verme film Showgirls and you want to see a darker, more psychological take on the story, Black Swan is for you. Yes, all right, Amber, clearly I know what I'm about to watch. So listeners, what do you think of Darren Aronofsky's Black Swan? Have you seen it? What's your take on it? Let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for all of our film and TV articles, as well as our entire library streaming free. You can write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some of our film by swag. So Amber, I want to thank you for starting off the month with me here with such an awesome film.

1:06:48 Yes, this was such a good choice. I loved it. We're about to have a whole bunch of Amber Lewis because you're you're with me again. I know we're going to talk about the forewarning you. Yeah, now we're gonna talk about the intern. I know, I know you're gonna show up on Phasers at the stunt. So we got some fun stuff with you coming coming this month. Yes, super excited. Uh what it surprised you? What it's? What it? What? Did it excites you to know that the curtain has not closed on our discussion about ballet. Oh my goodness, why I what are we doing? I was recently speaking with our good friend Jason Colvin about the film career of director Taylor Hackford and Amber.

1:07:31 As you know, we've yet to cover any of his work, and that's when Jason reminded me that one of his films will be celebrating a fortieth anniversary this year. Do you uh, do you know which film? I'm referring to. Myself in that head. I'm sure you will join me as we celebrate the anniversary of Taylor Hackford's White Knights starring Barishnikov. It's been forty Oh my god, this movie is so good. Have you seen it? Yeah, of course I have. You want to do it right? Oh my god, yes, you cannot do it. Without me, Okay, I wouldn't dream of it. Listeners, look for our episode celebrating White Nights with Mikhail Baryshnikoff and Gregory Hines later this season. Ambreau, as always, thank you so much.

1:08:23 Oh, thank you. Oh my goodness, I'm so excited. Yeah, and to all of you listening to the show, following us on social media, and subscribing to our Patreon, we thank you. There