John Schlesinger - Pacific Heights

0:00 I mean I love a good thriller. Uh, Before I start binging horror films in October, I like to prime late August and September with thrillers. Dayton, do you have a favorite thriller. It's it's hard to narrow it down. So I actually came up with two. I had a classic one, which is Psycho and uh, contemporary choice would be fight Club. Those are my two favorites. Fight Club, as you'r as a thriller, man, the end of that movie is a total don't you know? Mine? Mine? Miss? I mean seriously, I considered it more of a thriller than a lot of other movies that people label as thrillers. So, I mean, we had some screen was a thriller, and I'm like, that's more of a horror film. That's a that's a slasher. Yeah, you know, I'm with you. I mean, I'm always I always looked to Rear Window as as the best thriller if you if you if you had if I had to go modern, I'd probably say Cape Fear. Uh that's for Sacy. Yeah. You know, we talked last week. We talked about an awesome thriller from nineteen seventy six. We're talking about Marathon Man. I want to talk about another film by John S. Lessenger, his nineteen ninety underrated thriller Pacific Heights. Hello, and welcome to a film by podcast.

1:42 I am Jeff Johnson. My guest co host today is of no relation. I am talking, of course about Docking Base seventy seven Zone Dayton Johnson. Hello, and thank you for having me on on with an episode that has a movie from San Francisco. I appreciate that all that story you are. You are the guy from San Francisco. You're the fan. Yeah, okay, this worked out good then, glad to have you. We're gonna talk about Pacific Heights today. Before we do, I just want to a quick think. I want to read a quick Apple review, our latest review on Apple Podcasts. This comes from someone user name lt L Comma f t R and they write five stars. Amazing podcast with some very good limited series as well. The eighty six and Films at forty five series have been great to relive all those memories from my childhood and the new Strange New Wednesdays pairs well with one of the best written Star Trek series ever. Listen, we always appreciate the reviews that you guys send. LTL comma ftr. If you are out there, please head over to a phone by podcast dot com. Email us let us know how we can send you a little bit of swag and

3:13 uh because it's driving me crazy. If you're willing to divulge the meaning behind this unique user name LTL comma ftr, I'll even I'll even throw on one of our T shirts because I gotta know, uh Daton, some of our listeners, they gotta know what what is it? What are specific heights all about? All right? Here is a brief synopsis I prepared. Melanie Griffith and Matthew Modine stars a young couple living in San Francisco. They buy an old home in a Pacific Heights neighborhood and with the idea of fixing it up and renting it out and renting out the two apartments to make up the mortgage.

3:54 Things are looking up as home comes together and the first apartment is rent to a nice, older Asian couple. Things look even better when an affluent looking businessman, Michael Keaton shows up to rent the other apartment after a promise of six months of rent in advance, the apartment is rented rented to this charming and a bit mysterious stranger. That's when things start to go bad, bad, even horrible. Our young couple are in over their heads and their lives start to fall apart. How does the movie end for our young yuppie couple? In nineteen eighty nine, Michael Keaton stuns critics, wows moviegoers, and blows the box office away with Batman. He's a hero, and then one year later he's back on the big screen as a villain. In Pacific Heights, Dayton, he goes from savior to psychopath and does it very convincingly, actually, very convincing, very convincingly. Right, oh wow. You know, back in July on our John Us episode, we talked about She's having a baby, kicking off a subgenre of baby themed comedies in the late eighties, Slessinger does something similar here. In the early nineties, Pacific Heights launches a subgenre of married couple meets unassuming threat and terror follows. Right after

5:25 Pacific Heights in nineteen ninety we get Deceived, Sleeping with the Enemy, and Mortal Thoughts. In ninety one, Consenting Adults an unlawful entry in ninety two, Guiltiest, Sin and Malice, which we're going to discuss later this month. In nineteen ninety three, Dating your thoughts on these types of thrillers and do you have a favorite among them? The thrillers, Well, there are good ideas because the thriller the idea of letting somebody into your life and them becoming your worst enemy, you know, befriending somebody or it even could be somebody that you're you're close to and all of a sudden turns on you.

6:09 It makes you uncomfortable, and it because you start to picture yourself in that situation, you know, like with the people in this particular movie. You buy this old house, you fix it up, got an apartment, you rent it out, and you're basically, you know, putting yourself in danger by renting to these terrible people. So I like the idea that it's a lot of people can relate to that thought. You know, even if it's just you're renting out a room, what happens of that person just totally goes bonkers, you know what I mean? So I like that thought. An idea out of all the ones you mentioned, probably sleeping with the Enemy probably registers is probably one of my more favorite ones. But yeah, gotta be gotta be the top choice out of it. Well, Malice, I don't know, I've I don't want to show my hand. I don't want to tip my hand here because I know we're gonna talk about it in a couple weeks. But mal is definitely a personal favorite mine. Unlawful Entry. Yeah, you know, it's been a while I've seen him, but the one I remember most is probably Sleeping with the Enemies. That's probably why I'm picking it. I kind of feel like Sleeping with the Enemy had the most the most tension, and had the most thrill. Oh yeah, you know, out of the thrillers. But let's talk a little bit about the this cast.

7:21 So we got we got Matthew Modine as Drake Goodman and Melanie Griffith as Patti Palmer. They are the proverbial couple that's that's gonna find themselves in some trouble Dayton. Turns out they did not enjoy working together, and we're pretty open about it in interviews. Uh you know, I that's very much a he said, she said stuff, And you know, I wouldn't know who decide with you know what I mean, because I honestly don't know a whole lot about Matthew Modine, you know what I mean, because to me, he was he was He was very much a B list actor, you know. I mean he has he was in some good roles or whatever, but in my mind, he was never somebody that would carry a movie. Melonie Griffith, you know, she was more well known. So maybe it was the whole Prima Donna part of her or the deva part of her that was part of the issue. Who knows, you know, or maybe you know, seeing the Matthew mode we have now and stranger things, maybe that's a little bit more true to who he is. I'm just saying it could be, you know. You know, Melanie has these great performances in Body Double, Something Wild and Working Girl leading up to this, and despite playing the dutiful wife girlfriend role in Pacific Heights, I think she's strong, she's independent, and probably something I love the most about this film is that she takes the lead as the film's protagonist. Yes, very late, very late in the movie, and that's see I struggled with our two protagonists. I didn't

8:56 start to like her until she figured it out, you know what I mean towards the end, when she you know, decided I'm going to do this and trying to figure out what's going on and go after this guy, and I'm like, Okay, finally somebody's doing something right. I spent the rest of movie going, you know, because Matthew Mudin goes from kind of likable to a total douche, I mean in like seconds, and it really was just like, you know, I don't even care what happened to this guy because he did everything wrong, and he's yelling at his girlfriend slash future wife potentially all the time, telling her to stay out of it. I'm like, going, well, dude, you're not really doing such a good job. So yeah, I mean, and to your point. Yeah, halfway through this movie, you know, uh, she kicks it in to overdrive and starts she takes over the movie as as our hero. But even before that, I dig the fact that they buy this this big old house for like seven hund fifty thousand dollars, they're gonna gut it and renovate it.

9:48 And I love the fact that she's the one using the sall using the nail guns. She's doing all the heavy lifting. He's doing the heavy she's doing the heavy lifting. He meanwhile, he's like, hey, someone's gonna brint these apartments. He's you know, to your point, Matthew Okay, So Matthew Modine his earlier work in the eighties, you know, it sees him playing a lot of likable characters, absolutely likable. In nineteen ninety he does Memphis Bell and Pacific Heights, the ladder of which I feel is the start of him playing unlikable characters. You know, we should we should be rooting for Drake in Pacific Heights. But to your point, he's angry. He yells it, he yells at her. You know, he's kind, he's kind of a dick to her. He yells. He's yelling at everybody, you know, including the cops. You know, and by the third act he is helpless, you know, after after being shot then bludgeoned with a nine iron. You know, he basically just watches Melanie Griffith kicked Batman's ass from a hole in the floor. Right. God, yeah, And see that was my issue. I do like Melanie Griffith and quite a few of her roles, like I loved her, her you know, rolling milky like the ones you mentioned earlier, and this one I kind of felt like she really was taking a back seat too, And maybe they're off screen issues were kind of impacting her performance, maybe, you know, because I didn't I didn't believe it. I didn't really feel their relationship. And honestly, from the get go, I was a little annoyed because they're trying to fill out their paperwork for the mortgage and they're acting it was supposed to come off was

11:20 cute, you know, well what do we put here? What it to me just sounded like you shouldn't be doing this, you know, Yeah, you're you're in over your head, right. Yeah. They even asked their friend who pretty much said, no, this is too expensive for you, and they ignored him completely. So it was hard for me to want to like them because I just felt from from the word go they were doing everything wrong. Yeah, they're there. Their buddy h played by Dorian Haywood. I don't know specifically what they didn't really say what his career is, but he's he is certainly like they're confidant and like they're, you know, should we do this? And he's flat out tells them you know, you can't afford that, you can't do this, and if someone one tenant, you know, skips out on rent, you're you're you're upside down on this whole deal. You know. Listen Dorian Harwood. He's from Dayton, Ohio, and Dayton if we know anything about Dyton, Ohio, it said, if you know someone tells you don't do it, you just listen to him.

12:18 I love that guy. He's a he's not to jump to some of our our character actors in this, but I love his work. He's a prolific voice actor on a lot of like Marvel and DC cartoons. You know, good great actor. Love that guy. But let's talk a little bit about the main the main bad guy here Michael Keaton as Carter Hayes the movie. The movie opens with this really sexy scene between him and Beverly DeAngelo laying in bed, and then two thugs bust in with a ball bat beat him severely. I don't know about you, but the first time I've seen this, I'm already on his side and rooting for him, you know, because I'm like, what, you know, bad guy? You know, if what did he do that was so wrong? Like these guys just came and beat the shit out of him, like, and he's and you know, Beverly D'Angelo is upset and she's crying, and you know, he's like it's okay.

13:11 You know he's and you're like, man, I don't know. I think you know. Keaton in this role, he's charismatic, he's intelligent, he's giving off some serious Bruce Wayne vibes when he's pleasant, but when it's the creepy behavior where he really shines in this movie. Yeah, Actually, the opening sequence is really cool because the first shot is a reflection off the little TV screen and I really dug that that was very cool because you can see what's going on but not completely. So I really like that. And to your point, I see him get beat up, but at the same time, he seems like he had that look on his face like Yep, this is exactly what I was hoping for. And so, yeah, you're not quite sure what his deal is and I like that at times, Like I said, he does have a strong charisma coming off him. There is definitely some confidence. And when he pulls up in front of the house in San Francisco and he gets out of his car and you know, he's coming off like he knows their names and stuff like that. So he's like, it's like he's already working in the con but I'm already looking at this guy.

14:16 You know, if you pay attention. This is one of the things that really bothered me about Matthew Madean's character. He's not paying attention. You know. He says all these things that are obviously misdirections, and as soon as he threw out that six months of rent idea, suddenly well okay and yeah, and it just didn't work. But the fact is, Keaton is the star of this movie. He has the best performance, he has the most interesting character, and yes, he is an awful person, awful person, but at the same time, he's fun to watch. He's he does so much. In some of these these quick scenes where he's supposed to be creepy, he's downright. I mean he'll make your skin crawl. Like the when he's just sitting in the garage, he's first of, yeah, like you said, he rolls up, I mean serious, Bruce Wayne vibes here he comes up and that like that seventy seven Porsche nine to eleven. Yeah, and just like, oh, I'm gonna be on business. How about I just give you. Yeah, he's totally giving you the Bruce Wayne effect there. But when when she's trying and when Patty's in the garage trying to you know, figure out the light switch and all that kind of stuff, the power yeah breakers and she's he's just sitting in the car and she's like, you know, mister Hayes. And then he's like, he's like, he's kind of what is he like, he's like kind of fidgeting with that razorblade. Yeah, he does that quite quite some times. Right. Yeah, he spoke his cigarette just watching her. Now, see this kind of

15:50 felt disjointed because wasn't he supposed to be in Seattle at that point? He told mother Bodine. Yeah, he told Drake, well, yeah, I'm gonna be in Well his said that's where he was, yeah, Greg, Yeah, And again more misdirection because you're like, right, he shouldn't be here, so why is he there? You know? You know when he has the roaches they crawled off over the TV, and you're kind of like, I love I love the movie, but man, every time the roach scene comes on, I just feel I feel itchy. I feel my skin like crawling. Ever, that's Tracy Walter Man. I never but he's he's stomping on him instead of using his tools. He brought another another great character actor. You know, we we know and love him. Uh you know bat Well, he's Bob the goon and yeah Batman, you know, he's just he's just worked with with the uh Michael Keaton. So I wonder if Keaton got him the role. I could see that. You know, you need someone I got. I got a friend. You know, I got a guy. You know, he was great, you know, comes in for a day's work, he's fun. I love that guy. I love Walter. I always loved him as as Cookie in a City Slickers, the ranch hand that there was the cook or whatever. Yeah, he's a great he's a great actor. Speaking of great actors, there was one person that was trying to get the role of Carter Hayes. Yes, yes, I read that too, Christopher. So Christopher Reeve approached John's Lessenger personally for the

17:26 role and was turned down. Now look, I know everyone's going, well, yeah, Superman, Superman can't be a psychopath. But you gotta remember think about him in Sidney Lummet's death Trap which we covered. We covered that one a while back. I could totally see Christopher even this role. I could too, But I don't know. I don't think it's I don't think it feels the same. I'm not so sure. Well, to be fair, nobody thought Michael Keaton could be Batman, and here he did it. So you know, it's interesting. I don't hate it. I don't hate it. Yeah, it's you know, ultimately, it's it's one of those rare moments where Batman defeats Superman off screen, off screen at least, so one way or the other, one is going to be a DC hero, got it? Yeah? Exactly? Yeah, you know we mentioned a couple of Uh, there's some great character actors in play here. We already talked about a couple of them. Love seeing Mako. You know, he's he's the good, the good Tenant, you know him and his wife. That guy's fantastic. You got Dan Hadea, Jerry Harden people probably know from X Files Dayton. How about how about Lorie Metcalfe playing attorney Stephanie McDonald. Is it fair to say you're not getting your money's worth when you hire this attorney?

18:45 You know what I don't know. I don't think it was her fault because if if you know, Matthew Made's character is my client, he's screwing everything up. He literally made the job harder on her. Noah, Okay, that's true. If he just if he just if he just knew the rules, he wouldn't have needed her to begin with. See, I don't know those things that bothered me about this couple. They're jumping into renting stuff and they don't know the rules. Yeah, I don't know, man. I mean Carter Hayes, he's he's one con artist. But but this lawyer that she plays, you know, immediately she's like, here's my base fee, here's my hourly fee, and if we go to court, here's the other. She's like dropping all these fees on them. And then they get the court and the judge is like, yeah, let's let's move on, and she's like, uh yeah, let's wrap it up, you know, and even mathemdes like the hell just happened? Well, like I said, it was because he turned off the power that caused everything, and he didn't tell her that. So it's I don't blame her. And besides, I've talked to enough lawyers. That's pretty much how they talk. This is what's gonna cost you before I get it, and this is what's gonna happen.

19:56 You know, I'm just not all of them. I don't want to insult d Sorry, but I wouldn't know. I I all the lawyers that I that I'm friends with. Uh, I think they would do a much better job than than this woman here. But Dayton, let's a couple of cameos worth noting. Did you did you catch a couple of these? Uh? The director pops up at the was at the hotel in Palm Springs or whatever. Yeah, So there's that tense moment. It's a great scene where we kind of talked about Melody Griffith is there is tracking Carter down to figure out how to get even great. I love that scene. Uh, fantastic moment where she kind of kind of turns the tables and then there's that brief and kind of like they bumped shoulders. She's leaving, he's coming off the elevator.

20:38 He turns around and it's like, oh, did he see me? In that tense moment, you know she's banking, you know, she's just frantically tapping the button for it to close, and that hand stops. Just it's okay, just just some old guy. And that old guy happens to be a John's lessenger doing a little cameo, right, I think, awesome cameo has got to be Tippy Hedrod. Yes, it was. It's awesome to see her in this. Well, you know, it's one of those that I didn't notice, Like I'm watching the movie, I'm looking her when she looks familiar? Why does she look familiar? And that's what the creds like, huh okay, I got it now. Dating For those listening that aren't familiar with the name Tippy Hedron, you want to you want to break it down, like, why is she? Why should we know her?

21:22 What's she famous for? Tippy Hedron was probably best known for her one of my favorite Hitchcock films, The Birds, And of course she appears in Marnie as well, which unfortunately I have not seen that one. That's a fun one. That's what I've heard. I haven't gotten around to it. I feel terrible since I am a fan of his. You want to know what she's what else she's she's known for? What's that she happens to be the real life mother of Melanie Griffith. That's right. Okay, they were in the movie Roar together, only Griffith and Tippy Hedron, which used untrained lions. Okay, no, thank you. Yes, so she does the birds that terrified her and then she does a movie called Roar with Melanie Griffith where there's real untrained lions. So as far as a career choice, I don't think that works. No, Daton, I'm gonna put you on the spot here because you are you are, You're known for your excellent music taste.

22:25 There's one other cameo in this movie. Uh did you catch the band? Uh? Sound Garden is on the TV? Yes, and there's a I haven't I haven't figured out yet. There was a metal song playing on the radio when they saw the car all taken apart in the garage, and I can't place it. It's been bugging me. I have to go look it up. But there was Yeah, but yees, sound Garden was on the TV. Yeah, same same thing. I couldn't tell who was on the radio in the garage. I recognized it, but I couldn't place it. Yeah, but but sound Garden, the Soundgarden's unmistakable when you hear Yeah, when you hear Soundgarden, you know it. I'm like, So, Drake might not be that likable, but at least he has a good taste, you know when he's watching music videos. Right, yes, Dayton. Uh, not a whole lot to dig up on this movie as far as the film background goes, what do you got? Well, we already mentioned the possibility of Christopher Reeve playing the part, but the writer his name pines Daniel Pine. Daniel Pine right. Apparently he actually had rented an apartment out and the tenant turned out to be awful, probably not quite as awful as our villain in this one, but it was that experienced it too that set him to writing the screenplay for this movie. Now, this is one of his first big breakthroughs as far as a screenplay goes for a feature. Yeah, that's what I saw too. Fun fact, you know, where'd this guy come from? It just so happens. He wrote one episode of the Equalizer in nineteen eighty six, then wrote from Miami Weiss from eighty four to eighty

23:57 eight. So some of his other his other screenplays, I know you've seen these movies, Dayton. He wrote doc Hollywood. He did the Sum of All Fears. When they tried to reboot the whole Clancy thing. He did Fracture, which I think is an excellent film Anthony Hopkins. And and he co wrote Any Given Sunday with Oliver Stone. So not a bad not a bad group of writing credits there, No, not not not too bad. Right, I got a fun, fun thing here for you when this one came out. So, Carter Hayes is a character that knows how to manipulate people and the law. In an article for the Chicago Tribune, famed San Francisco author and real estate investor Jack Reid said this movie should be used as quote, a legitimate training film to show leasing agents and prospective owners the importance of tenants screening. Yes, I'll tell you right now, watching this movie, you know, if I ever had a thought of I think I'll buy a place, fix it up, and rent it, this movie immediately turns me off to that that idea. Yeah, my parents owned a condo for a long time, and once they moved out of state, they had somebody looking after it, and then they came back a few years later to check on it, and the place was destroyed. So I've I've seen it firsthand.

25:22 I'm like, yeah, no, thank you, no, thank you very much. Indeed, like like run down destroyed or was it Carter Hayes destroyed where like the fixtures are gone, the bathtub's gone. Not quite that bad, but there were holes in the wall, the carpet was destroyed and things like that. It was, it definitely was, you know, you know, let's try to clean it up and just get rid of it. Wow. Yeah, I'll tell you what, Dad, And we're gonna take a quick break. When we returned, though, we will discuss the movie's pivotal scene, give you some background on John's lessenger, and we'll discuss some of his impressive philmography. Hi, I'm dating the host of the Docum Basivity I podcast. We talk about everything from Anthrax to the Muppets to West Side Story. All Right, boys, buckle up, because we have hit the bottom of the barrel. Because he slaughters all the Tuscan Raiders. The fact that she stays by his side, that that tells me everything I need to know about these women that write letters to the serial killers in prison. You know, it makes it made sense, you know, Moby Young sad always dumped Tim. That was the theme song. You know when you listen, Tim, did you have the volume on? The witches are definitely much more nightmare fuel, but the fact that they look like the Texas Chainsaw centerfolds.

26:45 If Jango Fett is so awesome, he's hired to be cloned. Why the hell isn't he doing the job? He like my clients getting impatient? Well, you slack ass mother, won't you do it? You know you're just check us out on Apple podcast, good Pods, pod Bean or wherever you get your podcasts. Okay, Jason, test of our friendship? Which is better Van Halen or Van hagar Man? Honestly, I think Van hagar has better music. Oh no, no, no, no, it's Van Hampy wrong. What about Michael Jackson's bad album versus Michael Jackson's thriller out Thriller obviously best seller ever? No, no, see people tricked themselves and believe that it's actually bad. Okay, Trading Places versus Coming to America. Trade Places is the funnier movie out of this down. No, We're Coming to America is the funniest movie of all time. So if you find yourself backing one of us or the other of us. You need to be listening to the Sureley you Can't Be Serious podcasts. That's right. We have a friendly discussion.

27:36 D and I are best buddies, and we take a deep dive and look at the behind the scenes stuff, the history and the fun facts of all these wonderful movies and music from our youth. It's really just an opportunity for us to geek out about the things that we really loved growing up. For example, do you know the actor that was in Star Wars, Batman eighty nine and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yeah, Chris Harrison Ford. Harrison Ford was in Batman? Oh yeah, Billy D. Williams. Billy D. Williams was not in Raiders of the Lost Stark. Who was it. Well, you've got to tune in to the Surely you Can't Be Serious podcast. When we discussed Raiders of the Lost Dark Presses back to the future to find out the answer, we are back with Dayton Johnson. Dayton, let's talk about the pivotal scene in Pacific Heights. And I'm not talking about like the climactic moment, you know, I'm just talking about a scene that you know, really tells you a lot about this movie without telling you a lot about the movie. You got something like that in mine. Yeah, actually, the we kind of briefly mentioned it that. In my mind, the scene that really makes the movie better and kind of takes us to the end is when they finally evict Carter Hayes and they open up the door and to get into the department and it's destroyed. I mean, like you mentioned, the appliances are gone, the toilet, I mean everything. There's holes in the floor, there's nothing but trash in this apartment that they that they spent so much time and effort and money to fix up. And the look on you know, Melie Griffin's faith face is it's a little heartbreak. It's actually that's at the moment that I started to like her, and oh yeah,

29:07 it's it's also like you can see the look on everybody's face it's in there with her, like they're like, oh my god, I can't believe what we're seeing. But it's that moment that jump starts the last third of the film. You know, it's when she goes, I'm gonna go find out where this guy went. I'm gonna do my own investigating because at this point, you know, Matthew Medean's character is in the hospital. You know, he's useless, he's been shot and everything. He's just useless. So it we finally get to see what her character is capable of, and you know, she goes and finds him and then breaks into his room and does all that stuff, which is great. You know. So I really like that scene because when they opened that because you're because you want to see what's in there. We've been hearing noises and stuff like that. We know the roach is coming from there. We want to know what it looks like.

29:52 And when that door opens, and I'm just like, oh shit, yeah, that's terrible. That's awful. On day one, we're hearing incessant banging, like banging from a hammer and she's like, was it what were you? What were you hitting with a hammer? He's like, wasn't me. I didn't do that, you know. And then and then it's power tools at all hours of the night, and you yeah, you're right, man, You're just you can't wait to see, like what has been going on in this movie, in this in this apartment, his his associate Greg, who's always opening the door for him. That's uh, that's Luca bervo COVICI sure, well he's he's I don't know if you I don't know if you knew this. He's actually he's a director. He directed Ghulies in nineteen eighty four. Okay, love Gulies. I just you know, as soon as I saw his face, as soon as I saw his face, I was like, hey, I know that director. I just assume all this, all that hammering and sawing and cutting. I just like, he's just building sets for another movie. But yeah, but man, when they bust open the the door finally to force forcibly evict him, you know, the cop and the locksmith, they're like they're covering their nose, like clearly there's a there's a stench in there. And you're right, man, your your heartbreaks from Melanie Griffith in this moment because the look of devastation on her face.

31:17 She was the one that put that place together. She's the like I said, she's the one with a nail gun. She's the one painting and put it all together. I was so happy to see what she does. I'll tell you, speaking of Greg the associate, I think for me, the pivol scene was when Drake was in the crawl space and he's spying on Carter and Greg and learns Carter's true motives as a con artist that destroys people's lives for profit. I mean, think about this, because we you know, at this point we're starting to put it together. Carter Hayes's he doesn't need money. You know, he comes from a pretty significant family. He's got a trust. I mean, he is legitimately he is evil. He's just doing this just to do it, because that's a psychopath. It's terrible.

32:06 It's terrible. So Dayton, how about a little background on our director, John s Lessenger? Can I can I? Can I offer you some stuff before we get into this phimography? Sure? All right? So John s Lessenger was it was an Oscar winning director who got his start in filmmaking on the battlefields of World War Two while serving with the Royal Engineers for the British Army. That's how about that for a start and film that's impressive. Yeah. After his tour duty, he continued making short films with the Oxford University Dramatic Society during his college years and throughout the fifties, he worked as an actor in British film and television, but he gives all that up in the sixties to pursue a career in directing. Nineteen sixty one, his documentary Terminus wins a British Academy Award, and several of his projects gain him critical acclaim on the film festival circuit. Nineteen sixty nine, he reaches international fame with his film Midnight Cowboy, for which he wins the Academy Award for Best Director.

33:13 And if that wasn't enough of a prestigious honor, in nineteen seventy, at the Queen's Birthday Honors, Queen Elizabeth the second appoints him Commander of the Order of the British Empire. That sounds impressive. I don't know what that means, but it sounds impressive. Look, we he's got thirty two credits to his name. As far as as far as directing goes. You know, we're talking TV, we're talking talking film. We're not gonna talk about all of them. Let's let's let's focus on a couple just because they were they're big, they're a big form, right, So let's start with nineteen sixty nine. Dat and I gotta believe you've you've seen Midnight Cowboy. Yeah, I have it. I have a copy of him myself as well.

33:53 So yeah, it's you know, it's one of those movies that I think, but if you're a you know, a cinephile like us, moving Nerds or whatever, it has to be in your collection, you know, you have you have to know it and seen it in multiple times. And yeah, it's a big deal. It was. It was a very high point in the sixties early seventies the wave filmmaking was changing, you know, so that was a big one. It's a big one. Would you say, is it fair to say that this kind of launched the careers of Dustin Hoffman and John Voight? Uh? Voight? Probably because I can't think of anything before seventy one that these guys were in that that were that big. Right.

34:36 When was the graduate? Oh? Yeah, you know what, you're right, the graduate? Uh, I think it's a little before that Graduate might be a little bit before. Yeah, yeah, it was around the same time. So yeah, but either way, you got but that's two very different Dustin Hoffman's too, That's true, two very different. So yeah, did uh did you happen to see in nineteen seventy one, he does Sunday Bloody Sunday. Did you happen to see that one? I have not seen that one. I'll tell you what. I want to see it for a couple of reasons. First off, he's nominated for Best Director again. It's stars Peter Finch, who we talked about a few weeks back on our nineteen seventy six series Network Great movie, Great great movie, great movie.

35:19 And also and co stars Murray Head. Yeah that Murray Head. That that that did that gave us one night in Bangkok. Oh right, oh okay, gotcha? Yeah I had to place that, okay, Yeah, oh really I didn't. How about that? That's interesting. I'm putting I'm putting a Sunday Bloody Sunday on the list to watch. It's a cool title. It's a cool title. It is a cool title, right, interesting, interesting premise of the movie. Do you do you even know what the movie is about? Very little? Very little? Yeah, it's one of those obviously. It's character driven. It's a it's all about a polyamorous relationship between a young artist and a male doctor and a frustrated female office worker that could go places, you know, they could definitely want to definitely want to check that one out. Obviously, nineteen seventy six, we've all seen marathon Man, right, Dayton, is it safe? Another another Dustin Hoffman, you know, I mean another you know, yeah, pretty much can do everything, Kenny. We yeah, we talked about it on the marathon Man episode.

36:22 Hoffman didn't even like the book that William Goldman did, but he took the role mainly, you know, because he wanted to work with the John Slessinger agin right, and you know, secondarily just to slight Alpacina, who he was competing with quite a bit back then. But which to me, I don't I always thought that was a very interesting rivalry because to me, they don't look they don't. I'm not looking at one, you know, I'm not looking at them for the same roles. So that's what not really not really you know, well, okay, let me it's okay. So it's it's the early seventies. You've got this role, and In walks early seventies Alpaccino, thank thank god Father, Thank god Father one right, right, and then the graduates, you know, Dustin Hoffman walks In, I mean, they they similar build around the same age Yeah, they got that everyman look, but that also could be a lady man. I don't know, Man, I could I could say I can understand why they would be competing for the same roles. Yeah, I still see My brain seems to go to later movies more than anything. I And also I love the Graduate so much. I see that Dustin Hoffman, and I see like Dog Day Afternoon, al Pacino and stuff like that. So I see them very differently.

37:42 Okay, that's fair, that's fair, Dayton. Let's skip ahead. Uh, let's let's blast forward into the future. Nineteen eighty five. Have you ever seen the Falcon and the Snowman once on cable years ago? Years ago? I had, I have, I've always thought once. I'm gonna tell you right now. I saw this for the first time last week. Oh yeah, yeah, Timothy Hutton and Sean Penn. This is this is a very young Timothy Hutton, Sham Penn, Shaan Pen. I think this is like what three years after Fast Times at ridgment high. Yeah, this is yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm telling you, still very very early in their career. Still. Yeah, And I know, like you said, I know you said you haven't You probably haven't seen this in a while.

38:27 But man, the performance that Sean Penn gives that that voice that he kind of puts on. At first, I was like, what's he doing? And then and I was all in. I was like, you know what, I buy it. I believe it. It wasn't it wasn't annoying. You know, sometimes that actor will take on a certain tone or a voice and you're like, what what are you doing? Right? And this I totally bought it. You know, based on a true story. You know, the two friends, you know, kind of grew up together, grew apart, and then uh, you know, one's working for the government, one's working one's a drug deal and they become they become spy. They become like informants. You know, they're selling government secrets to the Soviet Union.

39:07 This movie is fantastic. It's it's a talkie, uh to quote Brad Cozo, Uh, it's a talkie. But it's also it's also like a legitimate, you know, spy thriller kind of a kind of thing going on. Right. I love it. I thought was awesome. What do you think I like it? Well, like I I want to remember it. But I did appreciate the fact that Sean Sean Penn at that when I was trying to get away from Spacicoli, you know, because he was uh and he's proven himself to be a very good actor, you know what I mean. He was, Yeah, he was more than just that surfer guy. And at this point he decided to leave that all behind him and do the hard stuff, do the very dramatic turns. With the exception of Shanghai's Surprise, but we won't talk about that. We won't talk about that one.

39:52 But I'll be honest for for anyone that has seen Sean Penn, the adult Sean Pen and something like Mystic River or Dead Man Walking and and there and they and they look at him and they go, holy holy cow. That guy was Spaccoli. You know, how how did he get from Spaccoli to these incredible performances? And I'm telling you right now, if you want to see the transition, it's in nineteen eighty five The Falcon and the Snowman where he plays Dalton Lee. He says, this, this this character, it's it's him, just just you know, taking it to eleven. I love it. I absolutely loved it. You know. It was nice and and you know, and I know, I know you're probably not remembering this, but uh, you know, you got pat Hingele in there. This It kind of kind of for me for a minute because like this is a very in shape pat Hingle. You know, he plays uh he plays Timothy Hutton's dada former former FBI guy. And I'm like, Wow, there's you know, Commissioner Gordon, you know, back to Batman. You know, there there's commission and there's we just can't get away from that, can't we.

40:57 Yeah, there's there's Bubba from the Dixie Land, you know, drive in maximum over drive, but he's he is in fantastic shape here man, and he's he's it's a great performance. You know, there's some there's some powerful scenes between him and Timothy Hutt and the whole father Son, you know, dynamic, great film. You know, I should probably stop talking because you know, people are gonna be like, is this a Pacific Heights episode or a Falcon Stoneman episode. Let's let's move on. Two years later, in nineteen eighty seven, he's back at the thriller genre with the believers. Yeah, this one I have not seen. You haven't seen this one? No, I seen it once. When I was a kid. You know, it only been out, you know, so I probably saw it maybe eighty nine, eighty eight, eighty nine when it was on cable. It's one of those it's spooky and it's it's a thriller because you don't know what's going on. You know, there's some child there's a cult involved, and some child sacrifice stuff happening. Martin Sheen just at his Martin sheenist in this movie.

42:01 Well yeah, I read the description. I'm like, Okay, maybe I need to look this one up because this sounds interesting. I tell you, you know, please check it out. I think I think you'd be happy with it. Plus, you got Robert Loggia. You know he's getting everything right. Yes, yeah, yeah, you can't go wrong with him. No, really really cool movie. I think you'd like that one. I didn't want to keep talking about it because I don't want to accidentally give something away, because I know you want to see it. You know, we've been talking about Pacific Heights. This episode, which came out in nineteen ninety. This is where you know, he starts to dip back into the TV movies a little bit. Shows back up in nineteen ninety six with yet another thriller, talking about Eye for an Eye did not like it? You didn't like it? No, I did not like it? Why not it?

42:52 I don't know? Okay, So is this I mean, given the subject matter, is it is it? Is it just kind of touchies? You know you're a father of a daughter. Is it? Did that kind of play a part? And you're like no, no, because I saw it. I saw it back in the day, and I remember sitting through it and going, I just don't like this movie. It just seemed silly. It seemed it wasn't interesting for me. I mean, I'm all about you know, you know, revenge and stuff like that. But to me, it just kind of felt like it just didn't It didn't flow, It didn't string together very well. I just didn't really care when movies all the day whatever. Really, I'm surprising, man, I see. I kind of looked at it as you know, this is like the female version of death Wish, and it's from from someone very unassuming because it's Sally Field.

43:39 Yeah. I love Sally Field, but I just you know, she wasn't enough for me to enjoy this movie. Oh she didn't have to be enough, because, like you know, you know, she it's tragic. You know, her daughter is raped and murdered by Keith for Sutherland, you know, he plays the villain in this and he is he is just he's chewing through the sea. He's awesome, especially in their courtroom scene where he you know, he kind of you know, he challenges Sally Field, but also kind of mimics her daughter's stutter. You know. Oh, man, See, Okay, I gotta remember, at this point in my life, I hated him because after all, that's right, you've got a whole key for sells and hate things. Well, he was such a horrible person stand By Me. I didn't like him in Lost Boys. So at that point I'm just kind of like, I'm you know what, I really didn't give a crap what he did until he just started doing the TV series twenty four.

44:31 At that point I'm like, Okay, at least he seems like a decent person. I hated him at this point. So yeah, it just I don't understand it, man, because stand by Him. First off, you know, for listeners that loved our eighty six series, you did proclaim that stand By Me is the best movie of nineteen eighty six. Yes, I did. I understand you hate his character, but I mean, is it is it? Is it okay to you can hate a character but love the actor because they were so good, right you? Him? I started to get the feeling that he was a little bit too much like the people he's playing. So so I was just like, ah, I had to I had a mental block. I had a mental block in him for a very long time. So just just why don't you do like a Young Guns double feature? Because he's he's a he's so heroic as Josi, a duck skirlock, you know. Yeah, but he's not the reason I like those movies.

45:20 So he's fine, he's better in those. But yeah, and I just didn't do it for me. It just didn't do it for me in general. All right, let me ask you, Okay, so let's talk about Slessenger's last film, because I want to know if you know what your thought? Did this one do it for you? Because this one was very divisive with critics and the audience. I'm talking about. In two thousand, he does the next Best Thing with Madonna and who was it? Rupert? Uh? Yeah? Whatever? Ever? Yeah, yeah, okay, So I love Rupert Everett. He was he stole the movie in my best Friend's Wedding by far, even though he was barely in the movie, he stole it. But to me, I remember, I remember watching most of that movie and I wasn't engrossed enough to finish it. It was one of the things that was on cable and I started watching it, and then I just kind of was like, yeah, right, whatever, don't no, you're you know what you were right, because while Rupert Effort, you know, I mean, you know, like you said, he steals a show on my best friend's wedding, he's steal in the show here, you know, arguably is he is it kind of the same character? Maybe you know it's the girl's best friend. You know, your lead is Madonna, though, and unless you've got unless you're gonna surround her with a great cast like you do in a league of their own, right, Madonna is not going to lead. She's not gonna carry a movie just bottom line, right, which she's never been able to. She she didn't carry a legue of their own

46:51 that was a great Ensolvell cast. So yeah, no, that's I just that's a that's a great movie that just happens to have Madonna in it. You know, yes, I don't. I would never say, oh, that's a Donna movie. If anything, it's a Gina Davis movie, you know, you know, yeah, I don't know the next best thing. You know, you got Madonna, because this is believable Madonna. Who looks this is prime Madonna? Right, this is two thousand. Can't find a guy? You know, she's pushing pushing forty or whatever if I remember, right, and you know, just wants to have a kid, and then, for reasons that are ridiculous, has a one night stand with her gay friend played by Rupert Everett. Oh guess what, They're having a baby, you know, and then it's the whole you know, he's got to play the whole protective I'm her best friend, I'm I'm the kid's father. You know. Yeah, it's like you can't even you can't even be like, you know, Benjamin Bratt, who you know again? Nineties nineties Bratt, two thousands Bratt? How are you going to say no to that guy?

47:52 He's he's he oozed his charm, right, he was. He was like the next lou Diamond Phillips. So like, how is he not good enough for anybody? Right, it's my question. But I don't know the movie. It didn't do, it didn't do well. I'm with you, though, I just like great premise for you know, a great story, great premise, but you got the wrong people involved. I think. Yeah, honestly, if you look going back to his filmography and just with the ones I've seen, Honestly, in my mind, he peaked with Marathon Man. Whoa, that's the name. One's better than that name. One after that, that's better than that old I'm not on trial here, man, I didn't say you were, but if you look, if you look through his filmography, and I just don't think he made a movie better than Marathon Man after that, because it certainly is not better than Marathon Man. Just it's okay, No, I'm not I'm not gonna say. I'm not gonna compare Pacific Heights to Marathon Man and say which one is better? Because we know, you know, Marathon Man is the is the better of the two.

48:53 Let me ask you this, you know, talking about his talking about filmography, you know, Brad and I usually talk about like, you know, here's what we want to see next from this director? You know, sadly, you know I mean Slessenger has been gone what twenty years now? Yeah, sadly you know we're not going to get another another movie from him. But let me ask you this, if we took let's just talk about John S Lessenger thrillers, if if I take Marathon Man out of the out of the lineup, Okay, now we're left with the Believers, Pacific Heights and Eye for an Eye given your keep for settling disdain. I don't know if we're just talking about two movies, what's dating what's the best thriller in the lineup? There? Can I pick when I haven't seen Okay, you're gonna pay Believers. You haven't seen Believers, but you'd picked that over Pacific Heights.

49:44 Pacific Heights. The best part of this movie is Michael Keaton. Then that's in the rest of it, which is not so good? If yeah, so no to me. I remember why watching it on cable when it first hit cable years ago, and you know, the my early twenties self thought that was a really well this is a good movie, and then watching it again for this I'm kind of like, yeah, it's not. It's one of those that nostalgia didn't help it I just I was so annoyed with these people that kept doing the wrong thing the whole time, and it's a con is only really awesome when you're fooling people that aren't easily fooled. The You know, Matthew Medean's character was an idiot, he really was, so tricking him didn't take much, you know, and he wasn't likable, so it's hard for me to root for him. Like I said, when they opened up that apartment and Melie Griffith is devastated, okay, I started liking her and was rooting for her. Honestly, I didn't care, you know.

50:49 I was kind of hoping that, you know, Emodean's character did get murdered by the nine Iron because wow, okay, so so you're not rooting, you're not rooting for the movie. It's a recommenda. You wouldn't recommend this one. I would say watch it for Michael Keaton. His performance is really good and he is a great villain. So if you watch it going, if you go in going I'm gonna watch this because of him, then yes, but there's no other reason to watch this movie. In my mind, I will respectfully disagree. I will I will agree. I will agree with you that Michael Keaton is electrifying in this role. He's awesome to watch, but I will respectfully disagree. There's a whole lot more than Michael Keaton.

51:31 This is. This is a slick thriller that puts ordinary people uh in jeopardy against a realistic antagonist. You know, you can watch you can watch a slasher film and and not be too scared because there is no boogeyman with an axe or a hatchet or a machete that's gonna stalk you. Michael Keaton can stalk you. And he's smart because he knows how to bend the law to make it work for him. He's great at manipulate people. And there are people like that in society today and that's what makes it that's what makes it scary. Uh. Yeah, I'm I'm definitely. I mean, I'm all in on this movie. I like we talked, we talked about that sub genre of you know, married couple meets unassuming threat and then gets terrorized.

52:17 I think this is one of the better ones when it comes to that. So I say see it. It's streaming on Stars and I know it's available to rent or purchase on Prime dayton As. As you preach on your podcast, physical, physical media is better than streaming. I happen to have a DVD of Pacific Heights. I'm gonna ask you, how did you how did you get this one? Watch it onoo Oh it's okay, so it's on vodoo also okay, good good to know for the for those that use Voodoo dayton I want to thank you for for stopping in a lot of people, a lot of our a lot of our new listeners probably wouldn't know that.

53:00 You know, a couple of years ago you you you started off here. You know, yes, uh, like our review mentioned some great series that we do. You are a a strong voice on on a couple of our our limited series. I know you have. You've been in the co host chair once or twice for us, so it's always it's always happy to have you back man and again. Back to our limited series. Right now we are we have we're like three or four episodes into our new one nineteen seventy six, where we are looking at the iconic films of nineteen seventy six. You got you got your own limited series happening though on a docum Base seventy seven. Yes, what's up? Well. The genesis for this series was I was looking for playlists on Spotify and I found one Best Songs in nineteen seventy six, and I started listening to it pretty frequently, and my brain just kind of went off, like, man, there's a lot of great music from that year. So then I looked up all the albums that were released in seventy six, and I thought that is a great year for rock music in particular. So I decided, you know what, We're gonna do seven episodes focusing on a single album each time that we're all released in nineteen seventy six. And so far we've talked about jail Break from Thin Lizzy, we talked about Steve Miller band Fly Like an Eagle, And the next one on list is twenty one twelve from Rush. That'd be that'd be tomorrow, right tomorrow. Awesome. Yeah, I love it. It's a great

54:34 series. You know, I've been loving it obviously. Uh, those of you listening, if you're a fan of movies from nineteen seventy six, there is no better companion series than uh than Dayton's and Getting the Music from seventy six so and for those of you that maybe maybe you missed here in Dayton on the show or your new and you you want to hear more of him. Uh, stay tuned because next week there is a a super episode that's a that's a big collaboration. We've done this once before, we're doing it again. Next week. We'll be giving you eighties movies? What was the best year? Happy to say, Uh, it's me, It's Dayton.

55:24 It's Jason Colvin from the Shirley Can't Be Serious podcasts. It is def Dave Wright from the American Soccer Quick Kicks YouTube show. And he's you know, we've had him on the show before Dayton. I think you've had Deaf Dave on twice. I know he's been on Shirley. This is the guy. You know, Hey, you need a good opinion on music or movies from the eighties, you called Deaf Dave right, He's he was fun to talk to you, and we got we got John Reid from the thirty something podcast to kind of keep us all online moderate this thing. Yes, but we're gonna talk about you know, obviously I am a champion nineteen eighty six, Dayton. You want to tell him your year nineteen eighty one, nineteen eighty one, and uh we got Deff Dave defending nineteen eighty four, Jason Colvin talking up nineteen eighty nine. It is gonna be a fun one, Dayton.

56:16 You're you're streaming it also next week? Right, yeah, I'll be dropping it on my stream as well. Yep, okay, yeah wow. Whether you're a fan of Docum Based seventy seven, a film by show, you can't be serious like it. Wherever you're listening on next Tuesday, you're gonna catch that episode. So it's it's gonna be a lot of fun. Speaking of fun, we always love hearing, uh hearing from you, so so please reach out. Let us know what you think about Pacific Heights, if you've seen it, if you want to see it. You know we can talk about Michael Keaton a little bit more. You can do that at www dot film by podcast dot com. You can always reach out to us a film by podcast at gmail dot com. And you can check us out on social media at a film by Podcast on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter.

57:01 Dayton. Where can they hear? How can they get ahold of you? On docum Base seventy seven, We are streaming free on every platform you can imagine, even from iHeartRadio to Amazon Music of course Spotify. Wherever you can find us, and you can find us on social media. We are on Twitter at docu BA seventy seven Pod and Facebook at doc seve Podcast. Awesome stuff. All right, well, dayton I uh I'm gonna get ready for this. Uh this is uh this eighties movies uh battle that we're about to have. I will see you next week, sir, absolutely thanks for having me on