Joseph Ruben - Dreamscape

0:01 Hey everybody. Jeff Johnson here from a Film By podcast with some exciting news before you start today's episode. This Friday, November first, at seven pm, will be joined by actress Tiffany Helm and writer director Nio cavosos Garcia talking about their new Christmas horror movie, Catnip. It's being called Grimlins for grownups, featuring a ferocious band of feral killer cats and the best part is you can be involved in this production. The Catnip Kickstarter campaign is live right now, and during Friday's episode, the cat Nippers will be offering a contest for all the viewers who contribute money to their campaign. One lucky winner will be drawn for a perk package upgrade. You donate one hundred dollars, you could be awarded the perks from the two hundred fifty dollars package.

0:56 Donate two hundred and fifty dollars and you could get the five hundred dollars perks and so on. So make sure you tune in this Friday at seven pm, and remember, when you're donating to the Catnip movie, include the phrase a film buy in the comments of your Kickstarter pledge to participate in this cool contest. The website is Catnipmovie campaign dot com. Just click on the link you'll find in today's show notes and join us this Friday, November first, at seven pm. You don't want to miss this conversation or this contest, David. You and I go way back all the time when we chat about movies. We do.

1:37 But this time, let's go back to the year nineteen eighty four for once. Okay, so we're heading to the theater to see a new movie about someone with the power to invade your dreams and make sure you don't wake up ever again. Sounds familiar, right, pretty Krueger. Right, Well, this killer isn't stuck in the Elm Street kids. Now. He's an assassin for the government and his next victim might be the best President. Oh okay, let's talk about a film by Joseph Rubin and his underrated classic Dreamscape.

2:34 Hello everybody, I'm Scott Hoffman. I'm David Burns, and this is a film. By podcast David. I want to start by thanking a few of our Patreon members as usual, specifically our friend and fellow star Trek fan Chuck Bryan, who recently became a full fledged Patreon member. I also want to thank Chuck and another Patreon member, Amanda Janic for their amazing guest spots on our nineteen eighty six episode Deadly Friend. We'll be sending us some a film by swag their way pretty soon, listeners. For those of you who want to access our exclusive episodes and content through Patreon, just head on over to patreon dot com slash a Film by a Podcast to subscribe today. All you need is an email addressed to get accessed to our free episodes, and if you want more, you can access all the rest for as little as three dollars a month. We're doing several episodes a month and we've got a lot more coming soon. But before we go too much further, I'm also happy to welcome a very special guest back with us. You've often heard him here with us at a film buy and he's also the host of the Apples and Oranges podcast, mister David Wright. Welcome deaf Dave.

3:41 We thank you, thank you very much. I'm happy to be here. I'm excited to talk about Dreamscape with you. Any movie from nineteen eighty four. I am down for a conversation. It is hashtag best year ever. So I hear I love. I love absolutely everything about nineteen eighty four, especially all the movies that came out that year. Thank you for mentioning Apples and Oranges. I had a lot of fun with that. We actually it was a limited run program. We ran from February to August of this year. It was a podcast that I produced and hosted with my eighteen year old son, And as the name might imply, we were comparing things, but we were comparing the discographies of the Beatles and the Beach Boys, stepping through the decade of the sixties, matching albums up against each other in like a series of one v one formats, and then casting a final judgment. So anybody that listens to the album episodes of Surely Can't Be Serious will recognize the format. But we had a lot of fun doing that.

4:40 I learned about the Beatles, and I presented the Beach Boys, and I think, well, I hope I brought to light was how it's such a it is a fair and equal comparison, and the music is deeper, at least on part of the Beach Boys than most people suspect. So we had a lot of fun doing that, and I would encourage everybody to check it out, whether you're a fan of bands or if you're just a fan of the Beatles and you've and you've kind of had a negative attitude toward the Beach Boys, which is something I encounter a lot. Let this show be your tour guide. That's fantastic. Well, we heard that Dreamscape would be one that you'd love to discuss. What does this movie mean to you? Well, to be honest, when I wasn't you you threw me off by saying this was about Dreamscape because Jeff told me we were gonna do a movie that involved the story of the introduction of the PG thirteen rating with a Drew Truzann poster that came out in eighty four with Kate Kepshaw is it with the scene of someone getting their heart ripped out? And I was like, of course, I would be happy to talk about Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom. No, so you're throwing me off with a Dreamscape there. But I do like Dreamscape.

5:53 I think this retroactively has connections to a lot of movies that people maybe not necessarily think about it. It brings to mind to me everything from Nightmare on Elm Street to inception, And I think there's a lot of ideas that got picked up later in perhaps higher profile movies that we're seeing this movie do first. And so it's really kind of a cool, little hidden gem of like cool ideas, and it has a stellar cast. So I'm a big fan of this movie. Yeah, I can definitely see a lot of kind of connected universe theories that well, we'll definitely get into a little bit later, but yeah, those same things were popping off my head when I was rewatching this David for those who might not know, since it didn't get a lot of traction in the theater unfortunately when it was first out. How would you sum this movie up?

6:43 So into a world beyond your wild imagination where anything can happen. Alex Gardner is gifted and a wanted man, wanted by an old friend for his psychic abilities. It seems that his old friend, doctor Novotni, has discovered something that was once thought in impossibility. It seems someone with a little help can psychically project themselves into someone's dreams and once then can be an active participant within it. However, there is more to this than anyone could imagine and Alex is soon to discover just what that is fantastic. I don't know about you, David. I happened to see this movie not in the theaters but on Uh it had to be on cable, I'm guessing, but I think the first time that I remember seeing this was right in the middle of the snake Man scene. Yeah, and I saw that it was Dennis Quaid and the snake Man.

7:35 I was like, what in God's name is this? What about you? So I didn't see this in the theater. I did see Temple the doomant theater, but I didn't see Dreamscape. This one got past me. I think I cut this on HBO like late eighties, I believe, but vivid memories of that snake Man, which scared the living crap out of me and still does. When I was watching this move again for podcast, I was like, oh, league crap. Yeah, Yeah, a lot of memory came back at nightmares, I should say, with that damn thing. Yeah. Well, and I think there's a lot we'll get into with the special effects. But yeah, it's a it's an interesting image that absolutely, like, like you said, when he first kind of transforms and you see him on the screen. It gives me chills that don't necessarily scare me as much as it kind of brings back this late memory of being terrified at the time exactly. And we've got a dreamcast for this one. So let's talk about the cast first, starting with the role of Alex Gardner Deft Dave. What are your thoughts on Dennis Quaid as our suave psychic.

8:42 Well, I feel like we're getting him early in his career. I don't know what else. I mean, I'm aware of Jall's three and I'm aware of I think it was Little Long Riders right with the head the Western with all the Brothers cast, But I feel like he was still kind of working his way to the A list with this movie. He looks just about like a teenager in this movie, I think. But it's good to see him here. I definitely. I know I was getting kind of a little bit of like Harrison Ford vibes in this. I don't know if if it was just because of Kate Capshaw or what, but yeah, I thought I thought he did a good job. I don't I don't know. It doesn't feel like the Dennis Quaid we would come to really know, but I enjoyed seeing this early performance from him. Yeah, I think, And I feel like was this like his like his first like really like top billing main role where he wasn't in an ensemble or anything like that. I feel like this was early in that kind of lead role for him.

9:38 Pretty sure. It is definitely the first time he's in a drewsters and poster at front center right. And I think there's a lot of parallels we're gonna see with Harrison Ford, specifically with that kind of poster, because I mean, it's hard in the year that Temple of Doom comes out, not to compare the two, because his torch is all over the place in Jones and he still has that kind of debonair, kind of scoundrel aspect to him that I think gives us some callbacks to early Star Wars. Yeah, yeah, David, what are your thoughts? You definitely can see the influences and all of that. Now. It's always nice to revisit actors who you know, go back to when they first started their career or around when they first started the career to see where they became, came from and what you know, they grew to because we know all of the films he has been up to this date, you know, but I always like to go back to see that. I think he did a fantastic talb. But I completely agree with you. He does feel like a Han solo. Indiana Jones character are written for this film, and it's it's kind of ironic that it kind of runs pretty close to Temple of Doom, like it was almost meant to be in my opinion, like they did that on purpose.

10:45 Yeah, well, he's definitely you know, he's kind of manipulating the horse track, right, he's getting away with things. He's running away from people that he owes money to, and he's trying to get out of trouble with He's trying to kind of make his moves on Kate Capshaw. So there's definitely a lot of parallels there. Speaking of Kate Capshaw, it's a busy nineteen eighty four for her. It is she's doctor Jane Devrez in the same year when she's in the Temple of Doom facing the threat of the Black Sleep of Kalli. So she's got a lot of dream based things going on this year. She did two years before we see her in Space Camp in nineteen eighty six, about seven years before she married Steven Spielberg.

11:35 So my question to both of you is which Kate from eighty four is best? Willie Scott or Doctor Jane. Doctor Jane. I'm not even gonna beat around the bush on that one. I'm sorry. A screaming Willie just grinds my gears. Yeah. I love her character in Temple of Doom, but just her scream just got to me. And I'm sorry. I'm a big Marion fan, so when they replaced her for that film, I did not like Willie at all. Sorry, it's it's the doctor who's syndrome. Yeah, when they replace a companion, it's like, Nope, not any story. I can't do it. Definit Dave, what about you? I feel exactly the same way for the same reasons. I can defend Temple of Doom and I'm ready to have that conversation with people. But what I will not defend is her portrayal of Willie Scott. I think her screaming and whining was easily the worst thing of that movie.

12:25 Yep. And when I realized she was in this, I was a little anxious, like what are we in for? But I think she's actually she's actually great in this movie. Yeah, I think she I got to see the real Kate capsule of the actress in this and so it's an easy call for me. I'm definitely taking Doctor Jane. My understanding is that this is not really a studio film. This was produced independently, financed independently, and then shopped around and the studio picked it up, like, acquired it because Kate Capshaw was in it, because anticipated she would be hot off of Temple of Doom and they wanted to kind of catch that a little bit. So I think she's probably a big part of why this did get picked up and got good distribution.

13:14 If this is the Willy we would have gotten Temple of Doom, it would have been so much better. Yeah. Maybe maybe she's kind of a Dona Noble Dave, like she's gonna eventually get that redemption, but we never really see it. No, Yeah, and there they're not. You know, def Dave, you had a great point there, Like you've got two big names on there already. I mean, Dennis Quaid is aspiring, but he's definitely got the charisma. You know that he's going to be a star. Kate Catshaw is on her way. Max von Seadal as doctor Novotni is no no exception, right, he's ever from Flash Garden, right, we know him today three ied Raven from Game of Thrones, among many many other things. I think he does a great job as doctor Navanne.

14:05 You feel for that character, you really. At first, you don't. You feel like he's out to get Alex Gardner and use him to his advantage, and he kind of does. But when you find out what's really going on behind the scenes with Blair, then in what happens to actor Novotny, you really feel for his character because he was taken advantage of. He was really just you know, being that doctor, that professor, you know, and you know, wanting to test the boundaries and see how far he could go, and he needed people around him who could do that. But he was just being taken advantage. Yeah, for sure. It's interesting that he and doctor Jane have it seems like they they know what they want to do or need to do with this program, right, They're genuinely just trying to research the science of it and help people along the way. Ye. Unfortunately he's got this you know, favorite a star pupil on the flip side of the Dennis Quaid coin. We've got Tommy Ray played by David Patrick Kelly.

15:09 Let me tell you something about this character. Okay, Yeah, I had forgotten about this character. I had forgotten about this realtor, David Patrick Kelly. And when I went to revisit this film for this for this episode, when he popped up on screen, I'm like, oh my god, that's where this guy from. Yeah, completely forgot about it. I remember how much I hated this guy. Oh wait, you know, and he does his job, so I'm not blaming the actor. Great job for, you know, playing this guy that I cannot stand, but I can believe forgot that he was in this movie until he popped up. Again, which is fascinating because I mean we see his you know, we've seen his face in forty eight hours. Obviously, Dave, you and I talked with a Patri Ramos on a film at forty five when we saw him in The Warriors yep, and obviously in The Crow he's he's pretty unfreettable there and Commando and Commando thank you so deaft Dave.

16:01 What are your thoughts on Tommy Ray as our main villain? I I will echo what Dave said. I thought that Kelly did a fantastic job of bringing the character to life. I mean, it's easy to hate him. He's arrogant. He at first, you just think he's just like just arrogant, little prick, and he just thinks he's mister Big Bad because he's in the psychic program. And then you find out what he's really doing and you realize, oh, okay, he's just this sicko that the government has been able to leverage. And it's just interesting to me. I mean, I think his height actually plays a part in this. You know, it's like he has short man syndrome. Because he gets into the he gets into the dream world, he's just like kicking everybody's butt. He's like taking out everybody.

16:43 He's you know, he's he's probably been picked on a lot in the real world his whole life. And of course he has he killed his dad or something like that in the real world. That's his character history. And then like he's able to just cut loose and let out all this anger and stuff in the dream world. And and and I'll love it, like I love the fact that he's got into the dragon posters all over his wall and then he goes into the Dreamscape and he's like, you know, mister Ninja, and you know, it's the nunchuck scene. It's weird because he looks a little funny doing it the same at the same time he's doing it like he's really doing like that's not easy. So hats off to the actor for that too. So I thought I did a really good job of training a god that's not likable and would be somebody has that profile that the government could use for these for these you know whattworks.

17:35 Yeah, he's he's definitely the Draco Malfoy of of Dreamscape. Oh yeah, for sure. And he's one of those one of the character first makes his appearance. You really, I'm not gonna like you, and yeah, you just do it well. And he there was another I know we've talked about Elma Street inception. We'll get that in a minute. There's another movie that crossed my mind. When we first meet Tommy Ray. He reminds me of Kent from Real Genius. M hmm, because he's in that position where he's like, Oh, I'm the star pupil, I'm the guy who's you know, running this university or whatever. It's supposed to be and then gets super jealous with the new kid in town, very much like you know, he's a nervous, pedantic lab rat until he's in the dream world and yeah, then he's you know, with these spike nun checks that you have to be careful with if I mean, with the spikes on the ends are a bit much to say the least, but like you know, it's gotta be tough to do that that scene there. Yeah, and he definitely had some some of Freddie vibes, especially in the Enz flicks those I'm like, that's on the nose, but okay, all right, it's coming out at the same time, so let it go.

18:51 Well, one thing you really shouldn't do is let him know what you're afraid of or what freaks you out, because he's always going to use that to his advantage. I mean, Alex didn't know at the time, you know, when you let him know about the snake Man, those kinds of things. But yeah, that's ooh that guy who. Yeah, well, it seems to be a little bit of a reveal like Dennis Quad's character seems to have this Professor X trifecta of powers, like we first see footage of him moving a ball bearing back and forth, So a little bit of telkenesis. Obviously, some mild telepathy because he's able to read cape capture his mind when he's you know, going through the Ghostbusters card scene, and clairvoyance because he's able to see the future with the horse races. Right. Yeah, it doesn't seem like Tommy has that range of powers, Like he only knows about the Snake Man because he happened to see the sketch from Alex.

19:44 I feel like that's part of his character. That's kind of tragic in my opinion. I feel like he is stuck there in that university, even though he wants to be there because he's this strong individual there. I feel like, you know, he didn't go out there to get his potential that he could possibly be like Alex did. Alex escaped it, you know. Yeah, that's true. That's true. Tommy didn't. He's still there, and I think that's why Alex has that more capability than Tommy did. Well, and I know we've got one more villain to round things out, Christopher Plumber. I love to see Christopher Plumber whenever he appears on stage. We recently talked about him when Jeff and Amber talked about Mike Nichols Wolf being another sinister character. I always think of him as the Pagan Preacher from Dragnet Tom Hanks and dan Ackroyd. Yes, like Orange Katty, Here we Go. Yeah, there's things that are wrong with that movie, but I love the movie anyway, and David, you and I love him for Star Trek six the Undiscovered Country.

20:49 Absolutely, we do. Without a doubt. Everybody comes back to Star Trek. It always does, you know. Honestly, this role reminds me a lot of general change from Undiscovered Country. Yeah. Yeah, both both characters are interested in stopping the peace process and keeping war going. So I definitely had shade a Trek there for me. Yeah, is I think I know the answer to this is Christopher Plumber, one of our favorite villains. He's the perfect kind of sleazy. You know. It's like, yes, he seems like he would be a good guy, but you just don't trust him. Yeah. Yeah, He's somebody who will put his hand around your shoulder with a knife in.

21:32 It just exactly. The Well, any movie with Christopher Plumber and Maximum Saido in it together, it is automatically you know gonna have to be taken seriously. For sure, without doubt. All Right, well, let's take a quick break when we come back. There's one more character I want to talk about, a theory related to Wes Craven. All right, welcome back. We're chatting about Joseph Rubin's Dreamscape. What is what other members of the cast that caught ora in this one? Uh? Well, for me, the little kid I forget his name, was a buddy or something like that that was suffering from the nightmares and they were trying to help him.

22:13 That actor's name is Corey Others and that last name the Others really struck me, and so I looked him up. He's actually the real life brother of Tina the Others who played uh Jennifer Keaton on Family Ties. Yeah, oh wow, I did not know that. So that's that's that's his that's her brother. He only acted in like the first half of the eighties. He did mostly episodic television, but here he is in Dreamscape. He seemed a little familiar, and I wonder if that was it. I wonder if I was kind of picking on some TENA others similarities there. Yeah, And once I knew that I could see the similarity. So yeah, and I love seeing George went in a bar, you know, his natural.

22:56 To escape. I thought he had a great character, I thought at first when he was kind of lurking around. So he plays Charlie Prince, an author that I think is supposed to be kind of a Stavid King paralle Yes, and it seems like he's another government spy, right, somebody who's kind of lurking around. Turns out he's a horror author. And I've seen this movie several times and I just recently caught an interesting detail that actually ties him back to Wes Craven in another way. So when he introduces himself to Alex in the bar, he shows him his best selling book Stab. The name and the logo are very familiar because it's the meta version of Wes Craven's Scream that we see in the opening of Scream two when they make a movie of Scream in the Scream world.

23:47 So if he's a Wes Craven like character in that universe, what if he was working on his own nightmare on Elm Street before he died. What if this is a Wes Craven character that was working on that because he's doing research. My brain thinking about that, does that theory hold water? Does it does? Yeah? I could see that it. Yes, it does help with water. I have another theory though, that would break that, and that's just that I feel like Nightmare and Almstreet three, I think it's three Dream Warriors. Yes, treads a lot of similar ground to Dreamscape. Where were they entering the genreams and going after the killer? And I you know, you can you can make the case that that after Dreamscape, somehow this program continued even though it's supposed to be shut down. And then we're actually seeing that work continued in Dream Warriors. So that part works for me.

24:39 Interesting. I really like that. I thought that that's fantastic. That is interesting. A lot of offshoots there. Yeah, maybe they could have found the kids who were able to achieve dream control be part of this program. Wow, wow, that would be that would be deep funny. You mentioned that because the writers on this movie, we've got Joseph Rubin obviously, we've also got David Lowry and Chuck Russell. And Chuck was the writer and director of what you just mentioned, my favorite ELM Street movie, Nightmare three Dream Warriors. There you go, there's the connection there, you go. So apparently he caught the attention of the crew behind Nightmare, which is a good thing because apparently when it came out, the franchise is faltering a little bit. They were a little worried about what they would do with it. And Dream Warriors was amazing and hopefully we need a chance to talk about that in the future.

25:39 You know, this movie has so many vibes going for it when you really look deep into it. When Alex gets picked up by the people to take him to Thornhill College, that whole sequence when he was in the station wagon that they were taking him there and the music going on had some serious Halloween vibes going on. Oh yeah, it really did. Yeah. You mean when he's being chased by the bookies. Yeah, and then when the station wagon, you know, they come get him and they see them coming towards then he jumps into the station wagon with them, So hey, I'll go with you. That the whole sequence just felt like Halloween at times with that music score. Yeah, but he's almost kind of kidnapped on the family truckster from vacation. Yeah.

26:21 Speaking of screenwriters, David Laurie had he said Laurie. David Laurie, he was actually not happy at all with how Dreamskate turned out and wanted to disown it. I mean, his name didn't get removed. He's still on there, but he was very like unhappy with the final product. Apparently, but ironically, William Shatner was looking for a rider for Final Frontier and was impressed enough with David Laurdy's work on Dream Skate that he hired him to help with Star Trek five. So you know, perhaps Shatner and Laurie had different standards of what made a good story. Clearly they did. Yeah. Yeah, wait, you talk about disowning one of those movies, right, let's talk about.

27:05 That said this time soon. No. I saw that, and I think that kind of surprises me because yes, there are some things that I probably change about it, but I don't know if it's worth disowning. I mean, this is when we've seen David, You and I have seen this a few times at least. Yeah, absolutely, and it doesn't disappoint. There might be some things that I would shift, but it's not necessarily something out right cut out. No. I mean I thought the movie had good pacing. I mean it's got a decent story to it. It pulls you into it pretty quickly. The characters I thought were well written and enough depth there that I wanted to know more about them and where it was going and the whole sequences of them going into the dreams and stuff like that. I wanted to know more, and I thought it did a really good job. So I don't know why he would have, you know, anything to do with this. I loved it.

28:02 I even think that the special effects hold up just fine. I don't think the fact that they all take place in a dream world and are not supposed to be real anywhere correct, Yeah, kind of insulates it from like being dated by special texts technology. Yeah and so yeah, so yeah, maybe the backgrounds in the video or obviously processed, or it's an obvious green screen, or it's an obvious stop motion, but whatever, it's the dream. Who's to say that that's wrong, you know? So yeah, I don't. I wouldn't just own this movie, not at all. No. I mean the whole re harry House and stop motion animation that we get in this. I love that. Anytime I see that in the movie, I just I get giddy.

28:43 I really do. You're absolutely correct about that. The fact that you know, these are in a dream. These are in a nightmare, so it can look any way it wants to look. It doesn't matter, you know, because it's in a dream. So you're right, they can get away with that, and it doesn't date it at all in my opinion. No, I would say for me, some of the things that don't necessarily work as well are to at least two of the scenes related to sex. So the one is the jealous husband's dream, which you know, it takes a beat to look for a funny moment. I know it's not the same guy, but mister Webber reminds me of the guy that says, oh, buy that for a dollar on Robocopa.

29:27 But with his kids there, and it just that was real. Yeah, And like the friends under the bed and all kind of stuff, it just seemed like it was taking a little bit too long for that. It almost looked like a bet Benny Hill sketch. Yeah, and I know where you're going with the other one, the other scene I'm going to talk about on the train. Yeah, Yeah, this hits in a different way when you have modern sensibilities and you look at it as he's essentially projecting himself against her will, yeah, to trying to have sex with her in the dream, and he tries to play it off, and it's just like, nah, that's crossing a line. And I know there there was a time or at least there are versions of this where they they either cut that out or just cut out the nudity of that. But what are your thoughts on that?

30:17 Does sex work in this movie? So their relationship they get to towards the end of this one is fine. I kind of understand to a certain point. I know what they were trying to do because they wanted to tie it up in the end with the whole crane thing again and the guy taking the tickets and stuff like that. I do kind of get that. But it's funny, Scott, we had this similar conversation about on Star Trek Nemesis and Phaser set that's done with Deanner Troy and what happened with her in that movie. So this this really seems like familiar ground when we're discussing this of you know, taking advantage of somebody in a dream like this, because you know, it still would be considered rape in my opinion, you know. Yeah, So I struggle with this scene looking at it through today's you know, society and stuff like that. Even when I was watching this movie again, I felt really like, are we really going to go there? You know, I didn't remember that scene very well because I hadn't seen it in a long time. But when we got there and I'm like, this doesn't feel right at all. So yeah, I didn't like that scene at all.

31:21 Well, I'm gonna dare take an opposing view there, and I want to say up front, you know, just the real world issue of rape is something I take very seriously. I've had it strike close to home and I would not treat it lightly in any way. But in the context of this movie and what we see on screen, it's not like the dream version of herself is resisting in the dream. She's consenting, okay, And after they get out of the dream, she says, well, it doesn't take a genius to know something we both wanted. So that's enough for me to not have a problem with it. Really, So it does a weird vibe once you're back in the real world, like, you know, what what you know?

32:04 I know you experienced that too, and are you still going to say no? Now you know, but I don't. I don't think the raziny line that was actually cross oa. That's fair well, aside from the the things that maybe don't work as well. What were some of the other favorite scenes from this movie? So? I obviously when they were in Buddy's dream is my favorite because a lot of that felt like a Twilight Zone episode. Yeah, it really the first one where he first meets the snake Man. Yeah, so like going down, like you know, there's really awkward steps and you know, all the kind of things that were going on in that dream, you know, getting the silhouette of you know, the father there and then they're going away and you see the snake Man basically killing his dad, but you don't see it, you hear it, you know, the shadows and stuff like that. That whole dream sequence I felt straight out of Twilight Zone, the movie that Steven Spielberg and stuff had worked on. That's what it felt like to me. And that's like my favorite sequence of the whole movie. And plus snake Man's there because it's still scarcely well.

33:04 What I what jumped out at me about that scene in that in that particular dream scape that they were in was the sets, you know, were exaggerated, like the windows in the wall. They weren't square, they were they were out of whack, And to me, that immediately brought to mind like the German Expressionism silent film era from the early twentieth century, German expressionism was a was that was something they did, was they warped the sets as a way to reflect the state of mind of the protagonists, because it was usually some kind of horror story, and so they would they would play with reality by messing with the dimensions and the angles. And I saw them doing that in that scene. So that was something that I thought was was pretty cool, and I was gonna name that as my as my top choice there. But since you took it, I will. I will whatever scene it was, And to be honest, I don't have a clear memory of it. It had to have involved Christopher Plumber.

34:02 But when we first get the plot that oh, okay, now they're gonna use all of this which seemed to be for the good of humanity, We're going to try to kill the president. And once that was introduced, then the story kicked into a different gear because now we had stakes, and then we had a villain and so it took that to bring the story together and to and to make it compelling. So and I feel like that comes a little late in the movie. You know, they spend enough time introducing the characters, introducing the phenomenon, the research. They take the time to help the little kid first, and it's like, Okay, this is great, but what's at stake? And then we get the assassination plot and then that's where that's where it kicks up. So I'll name that one.

34:46 Because even the move the movie even opens up with the president's nightmare, but you really don't put that together yet, you know, you're just say, oh, this is this. You know, he's having a bad dream and he is the president because they call him that, but you kind of let that go at first, and it really doesn't come back until a little bit later and later in the film. So yeah, you're absolutely right. Yeah, and I think Eddie Albert does a great job as the president in this one. Obviously they're going for Ronald Reagan kind of vibes, but it's very interesting to see a president that is plagued by nightmares of a nuclear war of nuclear disaster. I feel bad for his character because obviously he's trying to do all that he can to try to stop it, but he's being manipulated by the Joe far kind of character with Christopher Plummer's Bob Blair, and just knowing that he doesn't necessarily have a resolution to his nightmares. It's not like when they end the movie that he's cured of the nightmares. He has to live this responsibility for the rest of his life.

35:51 I think that's an interesting angle to talk to take with this, that it wasn't just like a high ranking government official. It's it's kind of looking at the president's view At that point, I got to take a moment to mention the practical effects crew on this, specifically for the Snake Man. So on the human scale side, you've got Craig Reardon, who was behind the special makeup effects for Poltergeist and apparently was the makeup creator for Sloth and the Goonies. He's got his pedigree nice joined by stop motion puppetry by James Operaly and hopefully I'm pronouncing that right, who worked on The Thing and Creep Show and another movie that we've mentioned a few times, Nightmare on Elm Street three. Specifically, he did the stop motion when Freddy becomes the marionette. It's a gruesome scene. It's a very coolest scene, and another place where I think stop motion puppetree still has a place like whenever we see the Ray Harryhausen. You can see stop motion when it's there, but I don't feel like it ever loses its luster. So I think that did an amazing job on this one.

37:07 Absolutely did, And. It still looked a little bit like David Patrick Kelly you know structure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We almost had a different Tommy Ray, which surprised me a little bit, mentioning how much his you know, his face is captured in the Snakeman sequence, how sinister a villain he is. He was almost Kevin Costner. Oh no, I can't imagine that here. Number one. I can't imagine Kevin Costner versus Dennis Quaid. It seems a little odd. Yeah, but I think we'd get a completely different feel from Tommy Ray with Kevin Cotton.

37:48 We absolutely would. I don't think it would work, in my opinion, not at all. They got the casting right there, I have to agree. Yep. Well, and I know that he had said he doesn't want to be a supporting actor, so that's why he had kind of bowed out of it. I think we're better for it. I mean, we've already talked about David Patrick Kelly and his other roles. I think each one of those is an example of why he's born to play this kind of villain. Yeah, especially one that's you know, willing to not only take the nightmares of a little kid and use him to terrorize the president. But ah, he's just so so ster a villain. Yeah. We also, you know, we definitely want to mention Maurice's music. I believe his last name is is it Yar, Yes, Maurice Jar. I mean he did the music for tons of stuff, but I mean like Witness Ghost, Lawrence of Arabia, Doctor Jivago, Solar Babies that I know, we did it in the nineteen eighty six series, even Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome.

38:48 I believe originally they wanted the music to be orchestra, but apparently Maurice felt like he really wanted us to be more electronic, which is what we got in this film. He felt like the material set the tone a little bit better, and I agree with him. You know, he was absolutely correct. I don't think an orchestra would have helped this movie. In my opinion, the route he went with the electronic music I think was spot on, and like I even said that scene that I felt really had that Halloween vibe going on to it because it was very simple music at that time, which John Carpenter's music is for Halloween. It really felt it had that vibe going on to it, and I absolutely loved it. So I think he made a very good choice with this music.

39:29 I agree. And you know it, it's almost not a horror movie. The horror elements sneak up on you, right. It spends most of its time being a sci fi movie, and I think, you know sci fi and then the horror comes when when your reality changes and when when your senses are warped, And I think that does lend itself more to that electronic approach that he took with this score. So you know, I agree. I think he made the right choice and you know, in relation to what the story was and what the material was, So it thumbs up. Yeah, yeah, I totally agree with both of you. I'm a fan of synth music. I've talked about transforms the movie soundtrack more than some times a little bit, just a little bit maybe time. But you know, even though it might seem of the era, I don't think that's necessarily a bad thing. And I think the sound engineering this one is fantastic, especially in the original scene where he's working with the construction worker and everything has that kind of echoe effect. It helps you to know when you're in the dream, even though that's fairly obvious. It's not like you need to guess, but it makes it a little bit more dream like, in my opinion. So I think that's I think it's used really well. All right, let's take one more break, and when we come back, we'll talk about another pivotal moment in dream scheme. All Right, we're back. We already talked about what I feel like is a pivotal moment in this with the original snake Man scene. But I think if we have to choose

41:01 which which is really a pivotal moment, I would say it's the climax of this movie when we get into the President's Nightmare where Timmy Gray is trying to assassinate him theft Dave, what are some of your favorite moments from that nightmare? Uh, the mutant freaks on the train. I don't know what the heck that was. Yes, it was like, are we still just PG thirteen here? Because holy crap? Yeah, yeah, that definitely, you know, jumps out of me. I thought it was pretty intense battle. We get the heart getting ripped out, we've got the Freddy Krueger fingers, which you know, Yeah, I agree, it's, you know, pretty intense, and like suddenly, like I said, the horror element snit sneak up on you late in the movie and it's like you're watching one movie the vast majority of the time, and then suddenly this has happening against like you're in a hellscape and it's just it's it's hard, you know, it comes hard.

41:54 Yep. Well, you had mentioned before this is the only the second movie to get a PG thirteen after Red Dawn, And yeah, I totally agree your first call about the the people on the train. It uses light in just the right way I think, to make it not just the horrifying look of the victims on that train, but the kind of nightmare quality. It's almost like zombies that are that are coming after you. As a PG thirteen movie, it almost seems like a sampler for somebody who hasn't seen a nightmare and on the Street movie something they kind of worked their way up to with this one.

42:39 I think I think what helped Meat up to that is I think it was his second nightmare that we were pulled into where he was walking around and he goes to that door and opens it up and like all those type of people were come out of that door at him. You know, yeah, you got that that lead up to that a little bit that when you get that in the train sequence, it kind of you know, you expect it, but you don't expect it because you get it even more on the train then you got it before. Yep. But it seemed like there was a little bit of a call back to the Warriors, right yeah, because he has that lutheror moment. Absolutely, yeah, he says it's him, he did it. It's like, oh, yeah, that's true. And by the way, this could have easily been the first PG thirteen movie. It was finished first, but I guess I'm guessing that because of the fact that it wasn't a studio film and it had to get shopped around, had to get bought and all that kind of stuff. By the time it finally came out red Don had already beat it to the theaters. But yeah, nineteen eighty four. You know, it's like nineteen eighty four both introduced the need for BG thirteen and gave us the solution before the year was over, because it was Temple of Doom and Grimlins that drove that decision to create a new category, and it was red Don and Dreamscape who carried that label before the year was over. It all happened within nineteen eighty four.

43:55 Yeah, well, and there was a massive rush of PG thirteen movies after that, so clearly the audience was ready for it and had an appetite for it, and it didn't seem to slow down. One of my favorite moments in that sequence is Alex's use of Tommy Ray's father. It seems like something that uses a lot of his talents. Like we talked before about the telepathy, so you know, he saw the news clipping, so he knew what happened, but he also seemed to be reaching into Tommy Ray's mind to know what his father would sound like, how he would talk to him, and whether or not that would weigh on him, Like it's entirely possible that that could have Backray backfired on Alex and not hit Tommy Ray.

44:40 He had to know that there was some kind of emotional connection there. It makes me think of how the Elm Street Kids fought back against Freddy, particularly a Nightmare three, finding ways to kind of seize their own power in that moment and use the power of dreams against them. He said, not didn't work out as well for them, But when Alex uses it here, it causes Tommy Ray's snake man to kind of devolve into that halfway hybrid kind of look. I guess, you know, credit to the president for driving a spear through his back. That was pretty hardcore for the president, But all right, I don't know.

45:27 I just thought that was a clever moment when he finally felt like he could control the dream. YEP, I agree. I know we didn't talk much about the poster, but I do want to kind of go back to that before we wrap up and just talk about what we get there. With him holding the torch, he's surrounded by all these elements. It's kind of wrapping up what you've already seen in the movie. It does seem to be a little a little bit of an odd choice for this movie. So I get some kind of wondering. Are there parts that doesn't seem to fit or do you think it's exactly what they needed to bring people in. Well, they think they were, you know, what they were going for when they made that poster.

46:09 Yeah, it's easy to see that. It's very easy to see it, and that's why they did it. But it really doesn't fit the film in my opinion. I mean, I know, we're talking about dreams and nightmares and stuff like that and going in them and helping people, but I don't think it matches what happens in this film. It should have been a completely different type of poster. So they use that to their advantage. I agree. I mean, I love Strusanne's art and it's an awesome poster, and I love how they worked elements from the film, you know, into the border of that archway or whatever. But yeah, I mean, it doesn't it does not successfully convey the actual tone of the film. You know, this is not in Indiana Jones movie, So don't try to trick us, you know so, And I don't know if it's just merely the fact that you use Trusan that that gave us that sense, But yeah, that sense of being deceived a little bit. It's a little misleading. I love the heart, I love it. It's a cool image, clearly, but I agree that it doesn't it doesn't really fit the movie.

47:11 And I just make I mentioned that in context of that ending nightmare, because it seems like the most impactful parts of this movie take place during nightmares, and it feels like it leans a little bit more into adventure than into darkness. And I think maybe it would have gotten a little bit more traction if it had leveraged some of those movements, like we were just discussing on the subway being chased by the wolves, being you know, fighting the stake man, and also the kind of stuff. And I was disappointed to hear that this didn't do as well. I've heard people say that it's because of the moment of the release. It was released in the summer, which wasn't a good time for it. But I do wish it had caught more success, and I wish there are more people that you know, would talk about it today.

47:55 So I'm glad we're getting together to talk about it. Yeah, I feel like it exception took a lot of these basic ideas and improved it and perfected it, and I don't yes, you know what I mean, Like, I don't know. I don't know if you could remake this movie today without people thinking you're trying to rip off Inception, you know. But it is disappointed that more people don't know about it because I do think it's a hidden gym from. The year it is. Yep, and it does feel like like you said, I mean, it could be a prequel, It could be in a shared universe at least as an early early stage in development for that program, and it might share some DNA with nine three in the same kind of way. So yeah, I don't know. It makes me want to see Inception all over again. I don't look forward to questioning whether it not the top spinning what that rates.

48:44 Yeah, I do think that Dreamscape and Nightmare on Elm Street three would make a good. Double billing, Yes, for sure. Damn no, that's the next one I need. To see right well. Obviously on a film by we always talk about the directors and foremost so getting into Joseph Rubin a little bit. I didn't see a lot of information about Joseph Rubin out there, but I know that we know a lot of his work. Specifically, I'm thinking about Sleeping with the Enemy and The good Son. Have you both seen those? Yeah, it's been a long time, but. Yes, ye, very different kinds of movies, right, yeah, yeah, they.

49:27 Are also throw a step father in there, step un yep. And I actually see a common element between all three of those. You know, you say they're very different, and they are. But but with those three movies together, you get this idea of like subverting the family as a safe place. You know, you know, you're playing against the fears, whether you're talking about a stepfather, you know, a cousin or nephew, however you want to put it, and and your husband. So I don't know, I feel like that was a Those three together, I think make up the defining theme of his career in my in my mind, I know he had other types of movies, but that's how I think of him.

50:11 M Yeah, I would have to go back and look for the stepfather. That's not one that I have seen. I remember at the scene The good Son surprised me a lot like that is definitely not a mcaulay culkin that we were used to seeing. No, And I think very well done as much as it was pretty controversial at the time, I thought it was pretty entertaining. Yeah, obviously, Sleeping with the Enemy is a hard movie to forget. I really I feel for Julia Roberts in that movie. I don't know that it's one that I would go back and watch very often, but I feel like it's it's good enough to say it's one that you see it once and it sticks with you. So I applaud him for that.

50:58 Huge movie for her at that point in her career is huge. Yeah, yeah, because that was what ninety three. Yeah, I mean it was probably her biggest hit after a Pretty Woman. You know it kind of maybe what was the proof of concept that she was going to be around, she was gonna, you know, continue to be a big, big star. Yeah, yep. And I think we saw hints of her as a dramatic actress in Pretty Woman, but Sleeping with the Enemy definitely, yeah, drove that home that she definitely has the chops to be able to carry that kind of a movie. Absolutely, And they came out in ninety one, not ninety three. He graduated from high school, so okay. Wow, later than that, but. It almost has to be her first Beacon after Pretty.

51:39 Woman, Yeah, any other movies by this director that we would recommend. Those are the three that I would focus on in my opinion, besides dreams keep of course, right of course, yeah, what about you? He did some cheesy comedies in the seventies and stuff. But but you know, I think he he got he's you know, found himself a dreamscape and then he hit with those other three movies, and to me, that's that's the book on him. So yeah, cool, Well, final thoughts on this movie? Would you recommend seeing this movie as somebody who hasn't before? Without question, everyone should see this movie because it's just like Dave def Dave said, this is a hidden gilm.

52:22 When we even talked about a film like this is a hidden gym. This is why we're talking about this movie on this podcast. Watch this movie. You got an opportunity, I mean, for crying out loud. You can watch it free in multiple places right now, and definitely check it out. It's only what ninety minutes long? Yeah? If that? You know, if that, it's it's worth a ninety minute viewing and you'll be entertained by it, I promise. Cool. Definitely have any final thoughts on Dreamscape. I just I totally agree. You know, to me, it brings to mind a lot of different movies, a lot we've already talked about it, so we didn't. I mean, to me, I think of scanners. You know, you got you know, the government using you know, psychics and stuff like that. I haven't thought of House with George went in this, you know, and here he's a horror writer.

53:04 In House, he's the next door neighbor to the horror writer. And of course I think about Inception and you know, you get a little bit of clash of the Titans with the with the snake man action going on. So it to me, like it just it. I just see a lot of connections to a lot of different movies. And I love everything about the eighties. I love the practical effects. I love the practical stunts. There's a stunt in here that's a small part of the movie. But but we don't need to take it for granted. He's they go back to the race track and he's being chased. They jump a motorcycle like over a fence like you saw in The Great Escape, and like somebody did that. I mean, that's no joke. So I love I love this. I love watching eighties movies and that pre cgi era where you're having to like actually perform stunts in front of the camera. So it's it's it's eighties gold for me.

53:54 Yeah. Of all the movies that I accidentally found on eighties cable, this is one of the famists. And I feel like it's kind of unfortunately because every time I'd see it would be halfway through the movie and then I'm like, hey, I want to see the rest. All right, listeners, Well, thanks for joining us. We'll be coming back to you with a Halloween treat this week. David and I are serving up a film at forty five with our coverage of a night another nineteen seventy nine classic, none other than Don Coscarelli's Phantasm. That's right, I love talking about that. I can't wait till the listeners here. Well, what do you think of Dreamscape? Is there anything that we missed or anything you've want to hear more about? Let us know on social media, including Facebook and Instagram.

54:37 Check out www. Dot a film by podcast dot com for film and TV articles and our entire library that's streaming free. Write to us at a film by Podcast at gmail. Dot Hey everybody. Jeff Johnson here from a Film By podcast with some exciting news before you start today's episode. This Friday, November first, at seven pm, will be joined by actress Tiffany Helm and writer director Nio cavosos Garcia talking about their new Christmas horror movie, Catnip. It's being called Grimlins for grownups, featuring a ferocious band of feral killer cats and the best part is you can be involved in this production. The Catnip Kickstarter campaign is live right now and during Friday's episode, the cat Nippers will be offering a contest for all the viewers who contribute money to their campaign. One lucky winner will be drawn for a perk package upgrade. You donate one hundred dollars, you could be awarded the perks from the two hundred fifty dollars package. Donate two hundred and fifty dollars and you could get the five hundred dollars perks and so on.

55:49 So make sure you tune in this Friday at seven pm, and remember when you're donating to the Catnip movie, include the phrase a film buy in the comments of your Kickstarter pledge to participate in this cool contest. The website is Catnipmovie campaign dot com. Just click on the link you'll find in today's show notes and join us this Friday, November first, at seven pm. You don't want to miss this conversation or this contest dot com. With your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you a little bit of film by swag Deaf Dave. Thank you for joining us. We would love to have you back anytime asolutely.

56:31 I appreciate, especially talking nineteen eighty four. You know you know I'm down for it. We'll get you back anytime. And hey, if you ever want to talk about Star Trek, We've got a little show that you know you might want to be on it from. Time to time Star Trek And like I said, Temple of Doom, I'm ready to have that conversation. I'll take on all haters. Fantastic And as always, thank you David Burns for chatting with me on another episode. We'll be talking soon on a film at forty five and Phasers set to stun absolutely look forward kid, all right, and as always, most of all, thank you to our listeners. We'll see you next time on a film by podcast