Lee Daniels: The Paperboy

0:00 When I read your message, I immediately could not wait. I was so excited to get home because I was like, I don't know, I don't know what I'm about to watch, but just based off of you know what did you say? What the actual buck? Did you just make me watch? Yes, buckle up, this one's gonna be good. Yeah. Truthfully, I don't know what I expected, but I know I wasn't prepared for I know exactly what I expected, and I was not prepared and I was not expecting any of this. Let's talk about a film by Lee Daniels, his twenty twelve underrated crime drama The paper Boy. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson. H I'm Amber Lewis, and this is a film by podcast.

1:15 Before we get going, we Amber, we got to talk. We have yet another new Patreon member. I would like to recognize our most recent member, Tracy Claire. So, Tracy, thank you for subscribing, Thank you for joining the Patreon. We hope you are loving all of the exclusive content that we provide there. And Amber, I gotta tell you, Tracy actually reached out has an idea for an episode for us, and I was so excited when I read, Hey, I love it when listeners do that. Yes, this one is gonna be we might, we might, you and I might want to call in some help for this one, oh boy, because it's gonna be a on one. So I won't, I won't.

2:00 I won't spill any more about that because I know we've got a lot to talk about with today's episode. Uh well, welcome Tracy, and we will get into your suggestion. Absolutely we will. Today's today's film, Lee Daniels The Paperboy, We've got social injustices, racial tensions, violence, and sexual ideologies in a coming of age love story in the late sixties South Amber. For those of us that have not yet seen it, can you can you give us most of us? Most of us? Yeah? Can you give us a quick synopsis? A reporter returns to his Florida hometown to investigate a case involving a death row inmate. And I do you think that that's what this one is about? I think I think that I think that's, you know, maybe the shell of what this movie is. It's, yeah, that's that's certainly, that's certainly happening in this movie, But there's so much more happening. I didn't have that much going in. This was a first time watch for me. I know it was a first time watched for you.

3:09 And just based off of looking, just knowing, just seeing the poster for this film, the film's one sheet. I expected something completely different, and I'm so happy like what I had my expectations, I'm glad that Lee Daniels did the exact opposite of Well, I don't know about that, but I know that I thought I was going to watch a movie similar to things we've seen before. This isn't like a brand new story idea, No, but I thought that I couldn't understand how with all of these stars in it, like how I had never even heard of this movie. I honestly, I thought this was gonna be a little cliched. I thought this was gonna be Matthew McConaughey come to come in to save a death row inmate wrongly convicted.

4:04 Uh, it's the sixties, it's the it's the South, deep South. So I assumed he's going to be coming in to save a black man unjustly accused. Far from it. Yes, Yeah, we got we gotta, we gotta get into this. Uh. I want to ask you this question, Uh before we talk about cast and crew. But this kind of gives off a to kill a mockingbird vibe almost like a it feels like it's like it's it's R rated cousin. No, you don't feel that, you don't see that. No, okay, oh listeners, there is nothing to kill a mockingbird here? No? Oh what you don't even feel like there's no related DNA. I mean it takes place in the South, yeah, social injustices and you know, just like the we've got the we got the narrator vibe. No nothing, Okay, I love I love that we're already off on different different footing here. Well, I can tell that you enjoyed yourself, and I hated every moment of this, so oh wow, I'm not gonna say that I enjoyed myself. This is not the feel good movie.

5:15 No, you know, but I mean I enjoyed it, like you know, oh yeah, this was a good ride or whatever. I'm not gonna lie I I yeah, I mean, I oh my gosh. Okay, okay, well all right, let's we're gonna we're gonna get into this. Let's let's talk about the cast a little bit. So that's the only way I can get into this because it's such a bunker's crazy narrative. Like, all right, so Zach Effron as Jack Jansen. Now he's the second choice for this role, behind Alex Pettipher, who I think alternately decides to do Magic Mike. But a year later I read Toby McGuire, No, no, no, Toby McGuire, was that actually, uh, he was in line for McConaughey's role. Oh well, that makes more sense because when I read that, I was like, he's too old, like exactly, yeah, and this is that makes more sense. I think this is Uh, I don't. I don't know much about Zach Affron's high school musical days.

6:15 I didn't. I didn't really know Zach Effron, but I can tell you after seeing recently seeing The Iron Claw, where he plays one of the von Erics, he has a spectacular dramatic actor and I think, you know, I have to look at this philmography, but I can't imagine he did something before this movie to kind of show that. Because this this is why I could see him being cast in The Iron Claw based off of what I saw him do in this movie. Similarly, I have the same kind of thought I was watching it. I'm I'm still not sure how I feel about him in this movie. But I did think did he make this before or after the Ted Bundy movie? And it was before and this was an I thought this is how he got that job, so that yeah, this is before the Bundy movie, right, Yes, okay? And that that again that makes sense. He's he's he plays one of those characters where he is incredibly flawed, has a lot of emotional baggage. I don't know watching it.

7:17 At times I'm watching his performance in this there are moments where I feel sorry for him. There's moments where I relate to him. There's moments where I absolutely am disgusted by him, and I think he really like his the the journey that his character takes is a good one, I think in the end, yes, can we agree to that? Okay? Yeah, for sure? In his like layers, I felt he was the most real. Yes, his character has the most potential for growth. I feel like to become a better person, to become, to do more with themselves. Speaking of doing more, I gotta I gotta ask you about Macy Gray. She's first scene and I was like, holy crap, is that Macy Gray like she is so amazing in this I the minute she she spoke, I recognize this is Macy Gray. She's got that. There's something about her voice.

8:16 Yes, it's very unique, very unique, but very It's just it's it's intoxicating to me, like it pulls me in. I want to hear her. I want to hear her speak. I want to hear her sing. The role was offered to Oprah Winfrey, who turned it down, and I gotta tell you, I am so happy that happened. Yeah, it would have been a completely different movie. It would have it would have been more. Yeah. I don't want to get into what kind of movie it would have been, but yeah, why aren't we getting more Macy Gray. She has seventy credits on IMDb right now. Yeah, that's what shocked me. The majority of them, Yeah, the majority of them are music videos.

8:58 Hear me as herself, Like if you think like again, Tobby, we mentioned Toby maguire, She's in Spider Man. She's but she's playing Macy Gray, who is doing a concert. And then she has some small background roles where she's woman in the church or you know, she not a not a real role, so she only has a handful of prominent roles, and when you think about, like what she did in training Day and what she's doing here, I feel like this woman has such range and I am asking, why don't we see more of her? Yes, especially because I felt like her character could have been, I guess, just stereotypical, and she like brought in these complex layers just with her face and her facial expressions and like her body language. Working for someone in their home is a very complex, strange relationship. Yeah, I mean she's I think this is this is late sixties. I think it's is it Georgia. I think the movie takes place Florida. Okay, Florida, thank you. So it's late sixties in the South Florida. She's working for a white family that is more or less well to do, but very dysfunctional, very dysfunctional. Yeah, I don't know.

10:22 I think she is just she has taken it to another level in this film. And when you think about, like that opening scene, you know where she's getting that she's giving that deposition and she I don't know. I immediately I'm like, do I do we trust Macy Gray? Because it kind of gave me that feeling of her role in Training Day where she's kind of devious, and I was like, who is she protecting? Yeah, who's she protecting? And who's she out to get? And ultimately I was so I was thrilled with with the direction that her character took because I I just I fell in love with her character really, Yes, loved it, Yeah, a different kind of love. We got to talk about Nicole Kidman as Charlotte Bless so she replaces Sophia Fergara, which I found to be quite a surprise. Not so much when you realize that the film was initially being considered by Pedro Almodovar, but he ends up passing on it, which we get.

11:24 That's how we get Lee Daniels. Nicole Kidman goes full method acting for the role, and even goes so far as to arrange that all interactions on set between her and John Cusack have to be in character. Yeah. I don't know. I think that she was either horrifically miscast or horrifically miss styled. It's like putting Grace Kelly in a trailer park, Like, it just doesn't work. There's nothing about her matched she was supposed to be. Yeah, So it's either Nicole Kimmen, in her essence, cannot be that or like I was thinking of Dakota Fanning playing Squeaky from in Once upon a Time in Hollywood, Like, Dakota Fanning is beautiful young woman, and she looks so skeazy and dirty and nasty in that movie, as she should, and nothing about Nicole Kimmen read poor white trash Florida, no nasty, no.

12:39 So it was just to me, it just was Nicole Kimmen being a self indulgent actress. Let me show you what I can do. I can do this, I can say curse words and do nasty sex scenes and you know it, just I thought, this is Nicole Kibben taking a big step out on the ledge and doing something we are we're not accustomed to seeing her do. Maybe we're not ready to see her do. Yeah, but she's still an Cole Kimmen, like she's not. She did not become this person, you don't think. So it was just a cold Kimmen like, look at me, I can do these things. She well, you talked about her, look so like she's doing laundry and one scene and I never for one second believed that that woman has ever done a load of laundry in her life.

13:26 Okay, well despite despite her her laundry skill sets. Now she does do her own makeup on this film, and she creates that trashy look for Charlotte to have, which she kind of worked for me. You know that that eyeliner, Yeah, that's just vintage sixties look. Like even when she takes off her wig, like her hair underneath should have looked like ratty and oily, and and it just looked like the same hair, only not curly. I'm I'm all for trashing Nicole Kimmen in this and and I wanted more trashy. I wanted, you know, like it just like she should have had, Like like her skin is perfect, she should have had bad skin.

14:16 Somebody, a professional makeup artist should have layered her with like bad skin underneath. She should have maybe put on some weight. But that's just it. Like this is this is a low budget movie, and so they can't even afford you know, when they when they're struggling to figure out, like how we're going to hire a makeup person, that's where she she tells Lee Daniels like, Hey, I I'll do my own makeup. I'll come up with a look by myself. I guess in my in my mind, the first when you say Nicole Kimmen, I immediately think long flowing, curly red hair, you know, Days of thunder Farm. You're like le Kidman. Yeah, in my that's my head, like nineteen eighties Nicole Kidmen. So when I see Okay, okay, we got a lot to talk about it.

15:07 We told you the opinions are stacked. Yeah, okay, Well let's let's let's see. We got a couple more people I want to talk about before we talk about some of these these very provocative scenes. David O yoloo, good time. I got it. Yeah. Yes, he's playing Yardley Aikman, which is Matthew McConaughey's writing partner for the Miami Newspaper. He is a he's got a very busy twenty twelve he he does in addition to the Paperboy, he puts out Redtails, Middle of Nowhere, Lincoln and Jack Reacher.

15:48 And if you thought like he was saving himself up, he does I think three three episodes of television and four movies the year before finally takes a break. You know. The following year he only does like one or two movies, and one of them happens to be Lee Daniels The Butler, which I know we'll talk a little bit about later. But I love this guy. Anytime he shows up in a film, you know you're in for a treat. Yes, the minute he showed up on screen, I felt the same way. I was like, oh, yes, this guy's didn't love it, and I think he ended up being the most complex character in a whole deck full of characters, his character listeners. I'm gonna go ahead and say this, Amber and I can't discuss this movie without giving away some heavy spoilers. So we're gonna do that. So if you'll I please go, you know, turn on Hulu, turn on Peacock, turn on the Roku channel, watch this movie. If you want to go spoiler free for the rest of this conversation, you will not be disappointed. Or maybe you will, depending on whether you're a team Amber or not. But I'm telling you check it out. But all right, I'm not saying don't watch it.

16:57 I'm just saying, yeah, but but spoilers be damned. Uh. And to your point, that's that that one small scene he has, that interaction he has with Zac Efron towards his real is revealed. I mean, talk about sinister. I didn't see that coming at all. And and just the fierceness that he has when he delivers that that line. Well, and we had spoken previously about my love for journalism movies and journalist movies, and so I am constantly wanting to put journalists in that box of like they're fighting for what's right and they're telling the truth against all odds, and you know, revealing the truth, and uh, you know sometimes they're just not just this is this is the this is the ugly side of journalism. As far as uh film, he wanted his book deal and and I did a little bit feel for him, you know when he says, like, I'm a black man in Florida. How do you think I'm going to in the sixties?

18:08 How do you think I'm gonna get a job? Yeah, you know, you gotta create this persona that makes you acceptable. Yeah, he's I mean, when we're introduced to his character, he's he's this uh, somewhat flamboyant, idealistic guy from London who impeccably dressed a gentleman's gentleman. Right, Yes, just fantastic and you so for a lot of the movie, I'm feeling for him. I'm I'm I'm like this, you know, this guy deserves better. He should. But then when you get to that reveal, like a like a dark cloud that comes over the sunshine of them, Yes, of his character and well and in like you know in those movies where like you get the reveal and then the movie will show you like all these scenes that you miss, you know, like in a m Night Shemalan movie.

19:03 Yeah, like a Usual Suspects. And that's what I was doing when he did that scene. I was like, this changes everything. Yeah, it's oh yeah, like it totally changes everything you've you've been believing up up to that point. Yes. Ah, so, uh we talked. We talked about Tommy maguire, who was originally cast as Ward Jansen, but he drops out for scheduling, so we get Matthew McConaughey, who I kind of feel is the go to guy for the white crusader for justice in the South role. Mm. If you have that role, if you're writing that role, you probably hear his voice, you probably see his face. He does it, I mean, he does it really well. But here he's going to a really dark place with the character. But I thought he was perfect.

19:55 He was perfect, Yeah, like he and Macy Gray like made this movie. Yes, I just thought he was amazing. And I did not see his reveal coming like at all. Never never saw that coming, because you see McConaughey and you think, Okay, we're gonna we're gonna get a little southern charm, we're gonna get a hint of a bad boy, but also does the right thing. He's gonna save the day. And this is a broken Matthew McConaughey in this film. Yes, this is a troubled, repressed, guilt ridden Matthew McConaughey that I've never seen. I don't. I don't think i've ever seen this kind of McConaughey in a movie, have you.

20:41 Well, No, I mean the level of like self loathing, which is it's just mass Yeah, it's it's so massd at the beginning, like here's the guy. He's coming coming back home to save the day and get this wrongly convicted prisoner out of off death row. And of course he's gonna do it, and of course he's gonna win. Well, and you're surrounded by all of these really ugly people behaving in really ugly ways. And he was always like the peacekeeper, the sense of humor, the relaxed one. You know. I love that scene when zac Efron is like fighting David. Oh oh your wait, yeah you had it, you had it and I lost it. But anyway, yeah, welling yard, but anyway, and McConaughey just walks past, like very calmly. He's like, stop choking him, let's go. Yeah, very like telling your your two brothers to knock it off. You know, Like as the fight's going, he's still like on his typewriter, you know, he's like, stop choking him, Stop choking him. So to see all of those, you know, positive attributes and then just have it completely fall apart, yeah, you know, like A House of Cards was just mind blowing, more mind blowing for me. And again what I definitely was not prepared for John Cusack, the likable everyman that

22:18 we have known since uh the early eighties. John Cusack is the convicted prisoner on death row, and my god, is he repulsive. Yeah? I hated him. I hated everything about him. I hated all of this, Like I it's wrong to pigeonhole actors and to not want them to stretch and do things that interest them. But I'm sorry, Lloyd Dobbler, does that behave like this? This is not hit kick boxing the sport of the future did not pay off for the way dollaries. No, No, he was so gross. Okay, he was so gross. The way he looked was the way Nicole Kidman should have looked with then, like a veneer of makeup overneath. Okay, all right, so let me ask you he came in and he makes you want to puke. Not that I don't want to jump back to Nicole Kibben, but I will ask just a quick question. Let's say we had the money on this budget for a professional makeup artist and she gets the makeup effect that you're you're talking about. Are you then happy with Nicole Kibben and this maybe? Maybe? Okay, I'll take I'll take maybe for now. Uh I. I honestly I had. I had such strong hope once I realized Cusack was our convicted prisoner on death row. And she's reading these these poetic letters and you know where he's describing her as an angel

23:52 and then and I'm like and McConaughey's coming to save John Cusack. This is yeah, let's do this is hero mode. Let's let's do it. But when he shuffles out, and I don't want to talk about it too much because I want to save it for you know, there's a couple of scenes I want to talk about a little bit more in detail, but our introduction to John csck and this made me sick to my stomach. He's disgusting. He's disgusting, and he makes her more disgusting because she's she is vile like and I don't mean she was just kind of like bunkers weird. Yeah, there's women like that whatever, but the amount of self destructive like victim behavior.

24:33 Yeah, I speaking of her, speaking of her her character, did you did you? Did you? Did you know that Lee Daniels had her meet several women who who carry on romantic relationships with prisoners, Like they kind of had like a meet and greet, not a meet and greet, but like she had the opportunity to talk to these women and kind of get inside their heads. That kind of fits with what I know of her as an actress though, because she seems like someone who just researches the heck out of everything she does and really gets underneath. I want to talk about one more person, and it'll probably be the quickest conversation we have as far as cast Scott Glenn, who I absolutely love. Yeah, he plays a character like this, he is He's playing the father W W. Jansen who owns the paper. Is Scott Glenn wasted on this? Because I feel like W.

25:36 W. Jansen could have been played by literally anybody else and we could have saved we could have saved the money to get the makeup artist. Because I love Scott Glenn, but this is the most non Scott Glenn role I've ever seen him do, and I just feel like this could have been anybody. Am I wrong? You're not wrong. I think the thing that Scott Glenn brings to it. But then again to your point, like Ed Harris could have also brought that to it. Yeah, is like this veneer of hope because they usually play more righteous people, m h. And he's just supremely self evolved and disinterested in his children. And you know, it shows you that they were you know, they were abandoned by their mother, but they were also really abandoned by him, as well, maybe more so. At least he's there, but he's not you know, right, He's just not interested. So yeah, I mean I think that he I kept wanting him to be better. I kept wanting him to kick that horrible woman out of the house. And but I, like I said, I think like Ed Harris could have done that too, where you're like, no, Ed Harris, you're a good man, you know, like no Scotland, You're good And I kept waiting for that and it never happened. Yeah, watch it.

27:00 I keep waiting for there to be a defining moment for for for Scott Glenn to be in this. It never came. And then I got to a point where I'm thinking about Wayne's world where Wayne has to get directions from the guests attendant and the old man's kind of stumbling, and he's like, I know it's not a big role, but can we get can we at least get somebody, and they pull on Charlton Heston from it, like I feel like we had someone just a common actor, you know, a day player doing this role. And then Lee Daniels, Hey, I know it's not a big role, but can we at least get somebody to then and then Scott Glenn walked in and put on some mutton chops and I was like, yeah, because then that levels the playing field with the other cast.

27:47 I think, so right. I don't know, I just feel like he was wasted on this movie. And but let's take a quick break and when we get back, we will we'll talk a little bit about this film's background and start breaking down some of these these scenes. We are back talking about Lee Daniels The paper Boy. So, following the success of Precious, Daniels is showered with multiple scripts and offers. He passes on all of them in order to do this movie, because he says, in addition to the novel Push, the paper Boy is quote one of the great great novels, talking of course about Pete Dexter's nineteen ninety five novel of the same name, which was inspired by a true story. Dexter allegedly does not like this film adaptation.

28:41 It's safe to say Pete Dexter is team Amber. I do want to read the book though. This is one of those movies where I saw the movie now I now I want to go read the book. I think, yeah, I feel the same way, especially knowing that he wasn't thrilled with the movie, and it is based on a true story, Like, so now I'm a little more intrigued. Might have to go order that one after we're done talking here. The film did premiere at the can Film Festival, reportedly received a fifteen minute standing ovation. Zach Effron said he and Lee Daniels were crying over that. Although I'm gonna reject Okay, if you read, if you read some more of the reviews, there's one review that says this legendary standing ovation. Like if you expand the term standing ovation to include like booing and whistling and hissing and ye you know that kind of behavior, then sure, technically people were on their feet make the noise. So I think there might be a little bit of spin involved. I can think of a couple movies where a standing boo what would be called for. But whether whether or not it was it was cheers or jeers, you can't deny. It was nominated for the festival's top prize, the Palmdure. So good or bad.

30:11 If you're getting that kind of attention, that says something and Amber you are not a fan of Kidman in this, but she was nominated for the Golden Globe for Best Supporting Actress. Yeah. I mean, she did definitely play a character. We've never seen her do this kind of thing before. I just don't know if she was the right one. I don't know who else I would have picked, but I don't know that that she did the best job in that character. I want to talk about the pivotal scene. But before we do that, let's there's there's four or five scenes. I want to just quickly, let's let's spit a minute or two. Well, I've got one. I've got one for you. I've got one that I feel is a pivotal, pivotal moment in this film. Okay, but we're gonna, we're gonna, we're gonna roll through a couple of them, and then then I'll ask you if you you know, doesn't sound like you have one, but we'll give you that opportunity. I want to talk about the first meeting between John c Sex's character Hillary and Charlotte. It might be the most awkward moment in the entire film. I was so uncomfortable watching it.

31:19 Yeah, I was uncomfortable for Matthew McConaughey and Zac Efron and David o'lielo. Yes, I'm like, they're just they're just sitting there and it's just ugh, it's it's disgusting. Yes, absolutely made me want to throw up. It was. It was gross. It was and I don't know there was any point or purpose to it other than to be shocking for the sake of being shocking. I think if if there's a point to the scene, it's the fact that we need to know that John q s X's character at this point. We don't know if he's if he's innocent or not, because McConaughey is here to fight for him, but whether whether or not he's innocent, he's repulsive. He is he is using h some some pretty ugly language, you know, towards towards Nicole Kibben, towards the rest of them and just the whole like they're there to save him, they're there to get information, and he turns it into this really gross sexual moment between between himself and Kidman.

32:27 And and that's the memo where I'm like, ugh, she is, she's disgusting. Yeah, And and Bonker's damaged. Oh gosh, yah. I don't know. I feel like you get a lot of that abusive dynamic with the next I think it's the next jail scene when she comes in wearing the pants and he yells at her for wearing pants, and her reaction to him yelling at her. I feel like you get. That's all you need to know about their dynamic and about what she feels she deserves as a person, what she's willing to put up with as a person, and who he really is. Well, let's let's talk about another one that potentially is shocking for the sake of being shocking, the jellyfish scene. Everybody's making a big deal out of this. I don't for one second believe that Nicole Kimmon really peat on him like she she refuses to reveal how real the the moment is, which I don't get because if if it's fake, just yeah, of course it's a movie. Just to just say it's a movie and it's fake.

33:36 Obviously it's fake. Uh. Daniels was even uncertain about the scene during editing and consulted her and her response, I'm reading a quote here. Her response was, lee, you maybe pee on Zach Effron. If you don't put in the movie, you need to man up because it's you know it's that that that that that whole. Hey, you got stung by jelly fish, you know, the only thing you can do is pee on it. You know, We've seen it done comically on like the show Friends right here, and I hate that a perpetuates listeners. Do not do this to people. Don't pee on people. Think it's somebody Josh should right, Like that's just a good rule. However, in this instant, like he really was, he was gonna die, like yeah, And there is arguments to both sides saying it's effective or if it's not, and this was the sixties, they can't call nine one one like it's going to take time to gain rescue.

34:37 So maybe maybe not in the moment, I think it had more to do with her getting to abuse someone else, her getting to be dominant over a weaker person. Wow, Okay, Like I saw it as a whole like metaphor thing I do too, But I'm going going to go a whole different direction. But I'm gonna put a pin in it because because there's a few more scenes I want to talk about, and I know I don't want to. I don't want to dwell too long on each of these scenes. But let's move along to the boy we could. Yeah, let's move along to another wow moment in this film, Another big reveal, another shocking moment.

35:21 Talking about Matthew McConaughey's motel scene, Oh God, so traumatic, so traumatic, Like it was so upsetting because I was kind of I don't know, I feel like the reveal that he's gay in the bar was so like mind blowing, Like I didn't see it coming yep, And it just like threw back the curtain to so much of who he is and his interactions with people and why he doesn't come home, and like the conversation they had with zac Efron in the in the swamp, I'm like, oh, oh, the light is on, Like now I understand him so much more. And then to have it take this like just horrifically violent turn was just disgusting.

36:09 The reveal that he's a gay man in the late sixties in the South, that's one thing. But once you put the pieces together and you understand that there's some darker stuff happening where he's got this this bondage kink and this he's really into the whole s and M and you know, being abused situation. I mean, we zac Efron's looking on in terror outside the window as he's trying desperately to get inside this motel room, and you see there's McConaughey, like we've never seen it before. He is naked, face down on the floor, hogtiede bleeding, beaten on a piece of plastic, like like he's about to be murdered you. And that's what my Initially I'm thinking, these guys are going to kill him. But when you when you kind of put the pieces together, and there's some there's some dialogue before that, way before the scene, and there's some dialogue after the scene where you kind of put it together and you're like, oh, now I see what's going on.

37:07 This is something he's kind of into, he kind of wants, and obviously it goes way too far in the motel. In the motel room, it's like he gets a little bit more than what he bargained for. But you gotta remember, like even at like when he first comes home and Macy Gray has that line where she's like, hey, you need to stay away from that rough stuff, you know, because they've they've got an understanding. She knows, she knows exactly who he is, and yeah, who he is and what he's into and kind of like in a motherly way, she's like, hey, you need to you need this. Away from that, he's got some scars that they kind of point to, but they never say how he gets them, so you gotta you know, there's a lot of a lot of Sadamascus stuff going on with him where he's I didn't think I didn't go there. I thought it was more I didn't think about the scars that's making me reevaluate because I thought it was more like like you said, to be a gay man in the sixties in the South, and this is like deep South Florida, the amount of like you're not just in the closet, like you hate yourself. There's a some loathing. There are layers of rings it up. Yeah, I thought it was more like that, like he knows picking up these men is dangerous, but that's kind of like what he deserves. Yes, his his self repulsion is pushing him to this dangerous behavior where he's he's enjoying himself to a point that ultimately it's going to lead to his demise. And I got I got something more on on this. But

38:37 you know, before we get to that scene. We gotta get to where I gotta as as as difficult as is to discuss. We got to talk about one more scene. I'm talking about when when Hillary comes home, Oh this Amber. I'll be honest if you tell me like, hey, uh, there's this you know, there's a there's this movie and there's this extended sex scene with Nicole Kimman. You know you've got my attention. But when I see this scene and see how ugly it is and how rough it is, and this is her first day of filming, keep this in mind. First day she walks on set. This is the world, this is the scene that's that they're doing. How do how does she even do that? Like? How do you how do you put yourself in the in the headspace for that? I don't know. I don't know, because to me, it was it was not an extended sex scene. To me, he is one hundred percent raping her, like this is not a consensual interaction, like at all, other than in an abusive way that she's kind of thinking, well, I have to just give him what he wants to make him happy, Yeah, and he'll stop abusing me, you know, But that's not accurate, but I you know, I've always kind of been amazed at the level of communication and trust that would have to go on on a set be able to pull something like this off. And like she's talked about that with the show Big Little Eyes, about the relationship that she and Alexander Sarsgaard had

40:10 because a lot of their well almost all of their interactions are either sexual or abusive or both. You know, how much of a bond they had to create and how much trust they had to have, So I can't imagine this is like, you know, like if you just think in our lives, like your first day at a new job and you have to do something so like emotionally and physical, and like she's intense. She is, She's very intense. Now we're gonna move, We're gonna move. We're gonna jump back to Matthew McConaughey because there's one other moment I want to talk about, one other scene I want to talk about, and it's it's the moment that Hillary Murder's ward with that machete. My jaw dropped. I had it back.

41:00 I couldn't even figure out what happened. I was like, what's the what? How was he dead. Yeah, Well he's got him in that headlock and I didn't see them, achety, So how is he covered in blood? What just happened? Well, getting back, you know, we were talking about how McConaughey is repressed and he's very guilty and he has that self loathing and he's wanting that that he's got. I feel like he has a death wish because this is another moment where leading up to the leading up to that confrontation, John Cusick's character is yelling out, you know, I got what you want. I know what you want, and McConaughey is kind of like he's trying to get trying to get Zach Graffron and go back to the boat, go away. You know I got this. Well, you know, I think McConaughey is going for it right there. His his character is going for it right there in that moment, because with the blade at his throat, he's like, you you know you want this, and McConaughey has that moment where he goes like with his last breath, he's gasping. He says yeah yeah, and when you see just the blood just immediately drench his that white shirt and then he kind of falls and his fingers are kind of twitching. I was absolutely shocked. I was, like, he did he just slit McConaughey's throat. Like McConaughey's character's dead, because we've seen him just battered and abused about the whole movie. And I just kept waiting for his redemption moment. It's not going to come. Yeah, and I through that whole fight, he was struggling so much because he's only at this point, he's only got one eye. Yeah, so you know John Cusack already he's

42:32 still not completely healed, and you know now he can't see on one side. So John Cusack's character has you know, upper hand. And I thought, really his point was I think he knew he wasn't going to survive the fight. Yeah. I didn't think it was like a suicidal kind of thing. I thought it was just I want to do a good thing to make up or this mess. So if zac Efron can get Nicol Kiman out of there while I'm keeping him distracted, you know, that's that's my redemption, even though I'm not gonna make it. But I think you're right. I think ultimately it was just kind of I think he thought in that moment, like, what's the point all these movies? We We've talked about some pretty heavy scenes. I've got a pivotal moment in mind. But but before I get to it, I'm gonna ask you, is there any moment in this movie where you're like, this says a lot about the film. It's not the it's not I didn't see this this in the trailer. It's not the dramatic ending, but this scene matters to the to the heart of the story.

43:40 I don't know. I just keep coming back to all the Macy Gray scenes. I think that that's really to me, that was the heart of the story, Like, that's really the love story and the relationship. All I'm gonna I'm gonna hate it so much of everything else, I don't. I don't know. I'm gonna give you my pivotal moment. You're probably gonna be like, you know, I might be getting the reaction from you here. But because of what you said about the scene, going back to the jellyfish scene, that moment, that scene is the pivotal scene for me. And the reason why is I see it a different way than you do. You you were talking about how this is her chance to to be domineering, to take control, to be abusive. I see it a completely different way the scene starts out, you know, because at the heart of this whole movie, you know, we talked about this being kind of a coming of age love story. Zac Efron's younger character is he's absolutely in love with this woman who he can't have, and that moment where she's kind of like, you know, they're on the beach and he just looks frustrated, and she's like, you need to find a girlfriend. You need you know. She says some other stuff that we won't repeat here because you know, we have sponsors, but he basically, like her indifference to him shows right there to him, and I think he tell like, he basically tells her how he feels about her when he has that quick moment where he tells her off before he goes into the water to go and get stung by the jellyfish. The

45:12 flip side of that is when he gets out of the water and he's struggling, he's about that he's in critical danger. The three pretty girls that are a little ways down the beach, they see him and they go over there and they're like, oh, we have to save him, you know, if we pee on him, it blah blah blah. And she gets vicious and she kind of you know, chases him off more or less and kind of takes ownership of the situation. And I kind of feel like if she didn't care about him, if she didn't have if she if that, if that love was unrequited, she probably would have told those girls, yeah, do it, do it. But because it because she knows it needs to be her. I feel like that's her moment where she's saying she's she's kind of revealing that she has feelings for him because she doesn't want the indignity or the embarrassment of this happening to him by some stranger or a group of strangers.

46:07 She does it so that it's it's at least it's a little more. She thinks, at least it was me. Yeah, it's me, and we can share this together and it doesn't have to become a thing, even though Scott Glenn makes it a huge thing. But I don't know that's that's that's the pivotal moment for me. That's that's an interesting way of looking at But why is that pivotal to the story. It doesn't really have anything to do with the rest of the story. Well pivotal in the fact that this is the moment where they kind of announce how they feel for each other without telling that's That's what I'm getting at. He when he looks at her angrily and it is like, you know, fu, he's saying, it's you're the one I want. You're the one I want to be with. And when she does what she does, I feel like that's her saying indirectly, her saying I care about you and I'm in love with you too, even though they can't say that, they can't say the words. This is the moment where they show it. That's what I'm getting at. That's an interesting take. If I was ever going to watch this movie again, I would watch it with that in mind. All right, Well, with that in mind, let's take one more break, and when we come back, we'll talk a little bit about Lee Daniels and some of his movies. We are back, Jeff, do you want to take us into Lee Daniels projects.

47:37 Well, before I do, I'll tell you a little bit about him. So in West Philadelphia, born and raised unlike unlike the Fresh Prince. His upbringing is quite dark. His police officer father was very abusive, highly unapproving of Daniel's homosexuality, and was killed in the line of duty when Daniels was thirteen, which made a major impact on him. He moved to Hollywood after college and starts his own nursing agency specializing in HIV AIDS treatment, and then eventually sells that business and segues into entertainment as a casting director. Amber.

48:19 You would be surprised to know what two of his first projects are, probably because the first thing I know of his Monsters Ball. Long before that, he's working on Purple Rain and Under the Cherry Moon with what Yes, Oh my gosh, that's awesome. Yeah, And as you said, he eventually does become a talent manager. His debut production with Lee Daniels Entertainment was, in fact, two thousand and one's Monsters Ball. So let's talk a little bit about his filmography. I'm going to tell you right off the bat, the paper Boy was the first film I've ever seen of Lee Daniels, and now that I'm looking at this resume, I cannot wait to dive in.

49:05 Starting with his directory debut in two thousand and five shadow Boxer. Did you see this one? No, I hadn't even heard about it, but uh, I'm loving that Helen Mirren's in it. Yeah, listen listeners if you haven't seen shadow Boxer. When an assassin is diagnosed with terminal cancer, she decides to carry out one final killing, assisted by her lover and step son, Mikey. And this is starring the incredible seeing a comma there like is her lover her steps? I don't know, because I'm now I'm up for anything after this. Yeah, I am too. Dame Helen Mirren in the in the signature role Kouba Gooding Junior, but that's a Ferlito Macy Gray.

49:52 This is the first time he's working with Macy Gray. So we again, we got to see it just because we want more Macy Gray. We got the first time working with Monique. Joseph Gordon Levitt is in this one. Stephen Dorf. I don't know where I was in two thousand and five and how I missed it, but we gotta see shadow Boxer. Yeah, just got it now. His claim to fame, what put him on the map was was two thousand and nine is precious. I know this one when I know it's nominated for I want to say, like four Academy Awards. It wins two of them. I know, Monique wins Best Supporting Actress and it also wins for Best Screenplay. Did you see Precious? I did. It's rough, like, not in the same way that this one is reve Yeah, but it's very real. It's very gritty, and the abuse that this child suffers is just it's rough to watch, but it is worth watching.

50:47 Like I got done with this one with The Paperboy, and I was like, f this movie. But you know when you get done watching Precious, you kind of feel like you grow having watched it. Okay, I'm I'm lining myself up a Lee Daniels Weekend because there's there's so many well he's got such a small filmography mm hmm, but it's it's just it's impactful. So twenty twelve, we've been talking about The paper Boy. A year later, he does a film called The Butler. What about this one? Amber? I liked it? I liked I felt like too much hinged on the gimmick of who's going to play the President and the first Lady and that kind of thing, because really the story is about you know Forrest Wicker's character and his family and what goes on in their house. Okay, I liked it.

51:50 I liked it. I want I want to see it. And I'm quickly I'm picking up on the fact that that Daniels is one of these directors, that that he gets a certain group of actors together and wants to keep working with them. Yes, because I see, I see the Butler. I'm looking at He's back with John Cusack. He is, He's working with Alex Pettifer, who he tried to get for The paper Boy. He's got Mrai Carey's in this. I know she did. I know she did a song for The paper Boy, which you don't hear in the messages. Oh she was imprecious. Okay, so, and she's really good in it. Yeah, and then David l Oloo is also here. I don't know. I'm putting The Butler on my list. Yeah, listeners, listeners, I want to I want to hear what you guys think about the Butler and and how good this one is, because it looks it looks really good. After twenty thirteen, he does he spends a couple of years, he's doing some some TV directing, does a TV movie, and then comes back in twenty twenty one with the film The United States Versus Billie Holliday. Not really familiar with a lot of the cast in this one I saw, I mean, aside from from Garrett Headlin and Natasha Leone. I don't know your thoughts on this one. Did you see this one? Do you want to see this one?

53:00 I haven't, but I mean, who doesn't love Billy Holliday? So yeah, fantastic, fantastic singer. Yeah, and it's streaming on Hulu. So oh it is all right. No reasons, not the chair reason not to dive right in. I know a lot about Billy Holiday, so you know, I think you know again, it's an opportunity to learn something. I'm going to give you an opportunity to learn something. Amber he has got two projects coming out soon, and I'm highly excited about both of them. Shall I shall it? Shall I share it? Share them with you? Yes? I have no idea. So first up, the Deliverance is in post production, starring Omar Epps Glenn Close. He's back with Monique and Caleb McLaughlin, who we love as he plays Lucas on Stranger Things. Oh, I don't watch Strange You don't watch Stranger Things? You okay, all right, Well the first season, The Upside Down freaked me out, and I haven't watched any others. Oh you're missing out. Uh well, I know a lot of I know a lot of our listeners watch Stranger Things, So uh you can. You can catch Caleb McLoughlin in the next Lee Daniel's movie, this one Amber, Let me, let me, let me just tell you what The Deliverance is all about. A family living in a home in Indiana discover strange, demonic occurrences that convinced them and the community that the house is a portal to hell. Sold Ah. And if you think you're sold

54:37 on that one, wait till I tell you what is next after that? Oh boy, he in fact is doing a remake of Terms of Endearment, and Oprah Winfrey is in the starring role of Aurora Greenway that Shirley McLean did. Oh no, okay, not, you're not You're not You're not feeling went on. I hate that movie. You hate that movie. You hate Terms of Endearment. I love Shehrilan McClain, but that movie, to me, is all about everyone in debor Winger's life shitting on her and then she does so. Honestly, no, stop the I'm not looking at the clock.

55:19 But it had been several minutes since you you made a controversial point. There we go, Amber, Amber Lewis is anti terms of endearment. I love that movie. That's that's a great movie. I like she Clain and Jack Nicholson together. That's all right, Well, all right, let's wrap up. Amber. Uh your thoughts on the paper Boy. You did say you recommend seeing this one. Well, here's the thing. I mean, I have talked trash about it through the whole episode, and it's definitely not one that I would tell people like, oh you should see this. I'm never, ever, ever, ever, ever gonna watch it again. But I think it is important that movies like this exist. I love that it got made. I love that it got made with a good cast. You know. I love Marvel movies. I love Star Wars, I love all those franchises. But these are the movies that we've explored a lot of themes and a lot of controversial topics, you know, over this hour, And you know you don't get this watch in Spider Man, you know, so I think that to have a filmmaker like Lee Daniels, I don't. I'm not in love with his filmography. He's not one that I'm like, Oh, he's making something, let's go watch it. But I think it's important that filmmakers like him get their projects made because otherwise, you know, you're just screaming into the void and it's just the same thing over and over and

56:50 over again. I could not agree more with you. I definitely recommend seeing this film. It's provocative and challenges the viewer to face a myriad of uncomfortable themes, and I, for one, this is not something I'm going to own. It's not something I'm going to revisit. Would you ever watch it again? I would watch it again. But this is one of those movies where I'm going to need a good three to five years before I sit down and see it and end. And it'll probably be because Zach Efron or Macy Gray or lead someone does something incredible in a movie coming you know later down the road, and then I go, you know what, I remember that they were in that movie The Paper Boy. I'm gonna go back and check it out because I think I'm seeing a little bit of what they did in this movie and that you know it'd be something like that. So that is how I'm gonna come back to it. For those of you that want to catch it, as we said at the top of the hour, it is currently streaming on Hulu, Peacock, and the Roku channel. We want to know, like, what did you think of Lee Daniel's The paper Boy?

57:57 You can't tell us on social media. You can find us on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. Check out www dot a film by podcast dot com for film and TV articles and our entire library, which is streaming free. Write to us at a film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some a film by swag. I think that's going to do it for us. Amber always a pleasure debating film with you. Thank you so much. It's easy to talk about the ones that you love and you just sit here for an hour ago and that was awesome. No, this is a nice challenge. I love a good challenge, which is why I love when you're on the show talking with me. For those of you wanting a less controversial episode, join us tomorrow for our Star Trek theme series Phasers Set to Stun, Wayne, David and Scott are continuing their conversation about Star Trek generation with their top ten can't miss episodes of season three. Then, on Flashback Friday, are limited series A Film at forty five returns to celebrate the forty fifth anniversary of a cult classic, talking about rock and roll High School and next time on a Film Buy Andrew Blakeley and I will argue the wrongs and in my opinion, mostly rites of digilantheism and the loopholes of the justice

59:30 system when we talk about a film by f. Gary Gray, his two thousand and nine thriller Law Abiding Citizen Amber. Thank you and to all of you out there, thanks for listening.