Lynne Ramsay - You Were Never Really Here

0:00 This episode of a Film Buy is brought to you by black Key Cooffee. Head over to black Keycoffee dot com and get your favorite flavor this winter, I've been warming up with the Guatemala Espresso. Not sure what you want, then build your own sample pack and try several Black Key coffee. With enough coffee, anything is possible. Today we're going to talk about a film by Lynn Ramsey, her twenty seventeen underrated thriller You Were Never Really Here. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson and welcome back to a Film by podcast. Before we get going, I do want to shout out one of our listeners, Sarah Simons on Spotify. Uh left us a really cool comment about a recent episode we did, our Lee Daniels episode covering The Paperboy. Sarah says, so great of you to cover this. I watched it when it came out and since then probably five times, the last time being today. It's in my top five. Still always shocks me like I watched it for the first

1:33 time. Laugh hell loud, Sarah. I'm already wondering, like what if this one is in your top five and it is a very It's a very great movie. Sarah if you're listening, we gotta we gotta know what the other four are in this top five. Please email us at a film by podcast at gmail dot com because if you do, uh, we got we gotta, we gotta let we gotta let the listeners know, and we got we gotta send you some a film by swag. Moving on, I'd like to remind to all of you back in January, I had the privilege of being on the Share a Sandwich podcast, and the host and creator of said podcast is with me today, Mary Kay Holmes. Welcome to a Film Buy.

2:20 Thank you. I'm so excited to be here. We are excited to have you, and I got to ask you to do something for me. For our listeners who may not know about the share Sandwich podcast, can you give us a little background on how this came to be and what it is all about. Sure. On the shaff Sandwich podcast, I have a guest every week and they vary from just all different types of people that I've met or have gotten to know, and I ask the same ten questions of everyone and it's been more of a social experiment for me than anything else. I during COVID and coming out of COVID. I sort of go really tired of small talk and the basic questions that adults ask each other. Oh you know, what do you do? Blah blah blah. So I started getting really into icebreakers and asking people questions like, Hey, you know, what's your favorite dinosaur? Because it's just not something that adults talk about. So I wanted to make a podcast that was just grown people asking each other questions that we don't normally ask each other. It is absolutely fantastic. It's actually one of my favorite new pods. Please check out Mary Kay on the Share a Sandwich podcast. We have got ourselves a pretty fantastic director to discuss today and a movie that I think a lot of people have not seen and probably need to see. Mary Kay, can you tell our listeners a little bit about you were never really here? Yes, I agree with you, and that

3:51 I had never heard of it until you sent it to me. But essentially, it is about a traumatized veteran who is unafraid of violence and he tracks down missing girls for a living. So when one of his jobs spins completely out of control, his nightmares start to overtake him as a conspiracy as uncovered, leading to what could be his death trip or his awakening. I like how you I like how you said that. That's uh. I mean true, I've seen the movie. I love the movie, and I'm already intrigued to watch it again just based off of that synopsis. I mean, the internet is a great place to help put together a synopsis. So it was. This movie was amazing. It was different than what I was expecting.

4:32 What were you expecting? I mean, did you watch a trailer or did you just go in completely like unaware. I watched the trailer and I was essentially braced for sort of your standard action thriller, you know, a lot of gratuitous violence and you know action and certain you know, very sort of hyper masculine activities happening. And the fact that w Quing Phoenix was in it was should have been a little bit of a tip off that it was not going to be like a John Wicker, you know, but it was very different than that. The trailer and the movie itself were very different. I mean it's you know, as I mentioned, it's neo noir. This is a it's a it's a haunting film. Yeah, and it's and it's visually yeah, you know, we're talking about like city city landscapes, you know, New York. Mainly, it's not like it's great to look at where where she's where Lynn Ramsey's shooting, but it's still just it's it's visually stunning the way the way she shoots, right, I mean it's like it's like slightly out of focus. Yeah, cinematography, right, Yeah, cinematography is gorgeous, absolutely gorgeous. It's it's you know, you can tell that she probably takes beautiful photographs. Her composition and the way she puts everything together, there's there's energy put into every shot. Mm hmm, absolutely so. Jaquin Phoenix as Joe. During an interview with Rolling Stone, he shared that Lynn Ramsey gave him an audio mix of fireworks blended with gunshots to describe what's going

6:08 on inside this character's head. And when you when you know that and you watch this movie, because he's he's got this this thousand yard stare through a lot of it, he's kind of just like, is he is he is? He? Is he with us? Or where's he at? And when you hear that, that's what's you know, when you when you watch it again and you know, like that's what's that's kind of like his inner monologue. For me, it put the movie on a whole new level. So I'm like, this guy is really troubled. Yeah, no, and that's intense. I did not read that one. I read different things, and it was the same thing with you know, as I was going through like different synopsis online and reading things about it, and they always kick it off with the veteran right up front, within the first few words. And yes, there are moments that tell you that he is a veteran, but I don't feel like there was a huge emphasis put on it. But I do think that when you've been through a traumatic situation like he clearly has in combat, that that is always in your mind. So knowing that she sort of gave him that soundscape for his thoughts, that's really that's really interesting. I think it's brilliant, and you know, it just it speaks to what kind of artist she is, I think, because this character he is, he's very damaged, and this is something that we're This is a point like you know, mid you know, like twenty fifteen, twenty seven, sixteen seventeen, this is where Joaquin's starting to take on roles where he's playing these traumatized people, these these damaged people think of him and Joker, you know, Todd Phillips Joker, which he'll do a couple of years after this movie.

7:40 You can kind of see where he gets his inspiration for Arthur fleckin in this movie with with the character Joe. He's just so damaged and like you talked about, like his military background. We get very very brief flashbacks that Lynn Ramsey is giving us to kind of show so who he is and why he is so traumatized. You know, you know, we know he's an abuse child. You know he has observed the violence, the extreme violence that his father has has done against his mother. You know, we talked about the horrors of war. You know, he sees some pretty messed up stuff. But we again we see just just flashes, like just quick images, like some like one image I had to stop. I had to pause to go, did I see what I just saw? You know, because we know he's got a military background, we know he has a background with the FBI, and this kind of all speaks to this all kind of builds to this new career he has where's he's basically saving young girls from from trafficking. Yeah, and I have to say the way that she sort of shows these flashbacks to his time in combat, it's very different than any other combat flashback I've ever seen before. It's yeah, moments, these really sort of poignant and powerful moments that aren't your traditional you know, something blowing up or something this happening or this happening. It's like there's this tiny little thing that happens here and this tiny little thing that happens here, and they're very specific. Yeah, It's it's really powerful the way that she does it. They're specific because

9:11 they also they force you to ask questions because it really puts you inside his headspace. You know. We get a brief, like a one second shot of like two soldiers just playfully dancing together, and you know, and you're like, what's what's going on there? And then you see like this quivering foot and you're like, wait, who is that? What's going on? And then when you kind of put and she has these extreme close ups that are slightly out of focus. So it really puts you in this person's mind because like when you think, like you know, when we when we experience trauma and we we think back or were it kind of jamsus, you know, kind of jams us up, and you know, we're kind of we're in our own headspace. It's it's fuzzy, and maybe we don't remember things coherently. And I think what she's doing here is brilliant, honestly, when she's explaining who he is. I love it. Yeah, No, I fully agree with you on that. I fully agree. And what's interesting is that that tiny moment of him dancing in the desert with the other man, if it is even him, I don't even know if it was him.

10:15 I think it was just two men dancing together. There is a moment later in the movie that if you sort of like draw the straight line between those two moments, you can make an assumption about him and something about him, you know, which is not overt and it's not discussed, and it also is just a thing that happens, but it gives you just that extra, tiny, little paper thin layer of who he is, very subtle layers. I think, as we try to unravel who Joe is and where he comes from, there's a lot of questions that you and up asking yourself. Yeah, for sure, a lot is co star fourteen year old Ekaterina sampson Off is in the role of the governor's daughter or the Senator. I'm sorry, excuse me, the Senator's daughter. Nina, this young lady. So she's born to a Ukrainian mother and a Russian father. She's got dual citizenship, and she did a few indies before this, but currently she's making her living as a model. Her performance is a little creepy, am I am, I out align with that, like, I don't know, she feels kinda I don't know, eth rul, like she's just I don't I don't trust her. I want I want him to save her. I want him to help her. But she almost doesn't seem like the quintessential victim, even though she is a major victim. Yes, right, does she carry herself like that? Is it just me? Or what's your take? Mary? Kay?

11:46 Well, it's really it's interesting that you say that because there's sort of this first of all, just side note. She reminded me a lot of Hunter Schaeffer from Euphoria. I don't know if you ever watched Euphoria, but from and I'm like, wait, wait, wait is that Hunter? And I look it up because very similar sort of look But what's interesting is, you know, we get used to in film and television seeing these abused women and girls in this certain way, right, and so there are these assumptions that that is how it is. And I think that there is sort of the vibe that I got from her is that she's having this sort of out of body experience, right. And you've heard that, you know, I've read that before from people who say, when you're in these horrific situations, all you can do is just leave your body because there's nothing you can do otherwise. And so she's so young, and if she's been dealing with this horrific trauma for years, it's possible that she is just so disconnected, you know when they go to her eating at the end, sitting there, I mean, you know, but at the same time, like she's probably hungry and you know, like there's food. So it's it's an interesting disconnect that kind of gives us this insight into man, how how do you move forward from that? When you have been so brutalized, you know, how do you put yourself back together and then sort of you know, slide yourself into

13:18 society and move forward. I mean, that's I can't imagine it's easy. Yeah, I mean people still have to eat, they still have to sleep. You know, slipping throats makes you hungry, right, Mary Kay, It's a lot of work. It's a lot of work. Uh, you know, I listeners, I probably suld have said this, but this movie is streaming on Prime if you you know, if you want to spoiler free type of assessment, go see it. Come back to us. But you know, we're not worry I I don't think we should only think back, do you, Mary Kay? No, I think we should go back. I also think that there's like a huge, you know, trigger warning on this movie for many different reasons, so, you know, triggered by that type of stuff. Then maybe this will sort of give them the opportunity to say, you know, I'm not going to watch this one. Maybe I'll just listen to the podcast and not watch the actual film. Absolutely, and it's I love the I love the point that you made with her at the end of the movie and you know, sitting there eating dinner with the bloody razor blade and her hands are covered. Yeah, because I remember the first time I watched this movie. I never would have expected that moment because we see you know, we know that Joe's gonna go save this girl from this this disgusting brothel that she's being held in, and that that scene in itself, it's I don't think it's like a pivotal moment, but I think it speaks volumes to the title of this movie, you know, of the book, because he never lets himself be seen on close circuit cameras. He never

14:52 lets him he doesn't give his name, he's his head's always down, he's just he's never really here. Yeah, but when you watch that moment when he storms this place and he's just dispatching these guys with this ballpen hammer, you just see like glimpses of it on the on the monitors. So a lot of a lot of inferred violence. I mean, you know, we don't really see a lot of gratuitous violence like you were expecting on this A lots implied and lots like it's it happens, so like, did I just see what I thought I saw? It's a it's quick, And I think that's part of the genius of this movie, honestly, And one of the things that really blew me away about it is I'm used to bracing myself.

15:33 You know, you see someone walking towards someone with a ballpeen hammer, You're like, oh boy, this is going to be a whole thing. And you have the moment where he raises the hammer and then you splash to the guy on the ground, and then you have those beautiful moments in between where he's sort of catching his breath, taking a moment, remembering why he's there. Okay, on to the next thing. You know, the moments when he's driving, or the moments when he's sort of in between, you know, houses while he's going on this final mission. It's it's amazing because we don't have to relive or I guess, live the initial violence of it. We know what happens. He's got a hammer, that guy's gonna we know what's gonna happen. I don't need to see it, and I what I want to know is how it's affecting him afterwards, what's doing to him And and she does a really great job with that. Yeah, I love her shots, nonviolent shots that tell you something really violent just happened or is about to happen. The movie opens, he's we see him kind of cleaning up, and he's cleaning a hammer that he's just used. We don't we don't really know at that point. But then when you see, like later down the road, when he's grabbing a hammer, a new hammer, off the shelf at the local hardware store, You're like, oh my god, he is about to unleash some some really terrible things. You know. It's like it's like the senator who who hires him? He has that question, he's you know, he says, uh, can you be brutal? And Joaquin's just like, I can be, and then he just says, I want

17:06 you to hurt them. It's just like, oh yeah, like what is that? Well, and then you discover how tangled the whole thing is, and it's like, ah, like this is and the thing is that you see, you know, you see Joaquin, you see Joe struggling with this, because I think it's easy for us to assume, you know, like in a John wu type movie, that like, oh, this guy is like hardcore, he's seeking revenge. This is happening. He doesn't care about anybody that gets in his way. This is what's going down, And you don't see necessarily those moments in between, now that there's anything wrong with that that's a completely different type of movie. But the fact that you see Joe doing these things or don't see him doing them things, and then he goes home and he's taking his mom's glasses off and putting them on the nightstand, and he's, you know, doing these little things that show that he's trying and that he actually does have the capacity to love and care for someone.

18:02 He's not just this calculated robot. Yeah, And speaking of caring for someone, I think what really turns this movie on its head is the idea that you know, there's events that are going to happen where she's going to be taken a second time. He's going after her a second time, and you're just like, okay, I get where we're going here, and to find out that it's really it's her that's going to save him in a way, I thought it was brilliant writing because let's not forget you know, Lynn Ramsey writes this, you know, she adapts this from the novella, So the writing's brilliant here. The idea that this fourteen year old girl ultimately becomes the hero of the movie. I absolutely love it. I just love it.

18:49 Yeah, because you see him the entire time. I mean, he's he's struggling the entire time. You know, he's struggling with his history in combat, he's struggle with his childhood trauma. He's struggling with his day to day he's struggling with how he feels about himself, how his body feels, his aches and pains. You know, it's just I mean, one of the greatest greatest moments is him, you know, lying in bed and he's sort of you know, dangling this knife over his throat considering doing something, and then the other room, his mom's like Joe, and he's like, what's the knife down? It's like what is happening? But it's so like he just goes back to being like, Okay, I'm a beautiful son. I got to go home my mom with this thing and then just toss my knife on the ground and go do this. Yeah. The way the way he the way he balances his suicidal tendencies with the care he has to provide for his mother, and I love the relationship by the way, you know this is it's so it warms you. It's like you're like, you're like, Okay, this guy's brutal, he's cold, blooded. No, he's not.

19:52 Like, look, he's he's at home. He's there to take care of his mom. You know, they have they I love the banter that they have where they're they're kind of like they're more like roommates, like old old roommates. You know. I think it's fantastic. I love a Walter White. I mean I love a complicated character. So he fits the bill right. You know, he's a guy that does awful things, but he kind of doesn't for a good reason, and he kind of doesn't do bad people. And also he takes care of his mom. So like you know, it's it's again like you said earlier, it's layered. Yeah, let's I want to ask you something. So we got, you know, on the on the subject of brutal, cold blooded mercenary type type guys that are that are out to take care of people. This movie has a you know, critics kind of pointed this out, this movie has a real taxi driver comparison happening. And I didn't think about that until maybe the third or fourth time I watched it, and and it's there because like you know, I think I think he's better than Travis bickele I mean, and I don't mean better as a character. I mean, he's a better person than Travis Bickel, but they're you know, they're doing the same thing, right, I can definitely see that. I have not watched admittedly Traffic Taxi Driver in many years. So now, as soon as you mentioned that earlier, I thought, oh man, I got to go back and watch that now because I

21:22 live for that, you know, the comparison and sort of where the nuance is between the two different characters, because yeah, I mean, nobody's all good, nobody's all bad, and different people have different things that inspire them to make the world a better place and a different place. Where the line is between what's good and what's bad and what they're willing to do to make the world a better place in the way that they choose. I'll tell you right now, Like, yeah, watching this you met you kind of pointed out those those moments, those really nice moments we have with Joaquin just sitting in his car waiting or observing or you know, preparing. It really puts you in that that Travis Bickel frame of mind where he's just driving the taxi and you're in his head for a little bit and he's talking, you know, he's you know, Denaro's kind of narrating, like what his thoughts are, what his feelings are, and the idea that they're both out to save a young, damaged, you know, female that's that's been kind of forced into a world of prostitution, who ultimately maybe doesn't need saving. It says a lot about about what this movie is. Yeah, Yeah, and it's interesting, you know, it's it's also it changes your definition of saving, right, So we initially think of the hero sort of swoops in and is saving her. Obviously, yes, she's being saved from an terrible, terrible situation that she maybe physically is not capable of getting out of, right when you're you know, surrounded by giant adult men. But then in the end,

22:56 she's saving him from himself. She's saving him from this dark hole that he's living in, especially after you know, what's happened to his mom and what happens you know, from that moment forward. I think I think that it's it's interesting how we can sort of redefine saving. Yeah, I mean, just because someone's not trapped in a building by by terrorists doesn't mean they're not trapped in their emotions and maybe they need someone to save them emotionally or save them mentally. And I think that's what this girl, you know, that's what this character Nina, that's what she's all about. Especially at the end. It's it's so I mean, the way she takes care of him at the end, it kind of washes over like a just an awesome wave of calm as far as but at the same time, she's just so hardcore, you know, she's like, all right, come buddy, here's what's happening. This is what we're doing, and time to get up. Also, like the song that's playing in that diner at the end, the Cake song, while they're saying really dark moment, it's sort of every you know, sort of processing everything that's happened, and then there's this song about cake playing. It's genius, Yeah, genius and a little discombobby lighting. For me, yes, yes, I mean it's to me, it's similar.

24:14 It's the same sort of interesting moment like when he you know, goes home, discovers what's happened with his mother, goes downstairs and he you know, attacks this man who's questioning and he's laying on the floor with this man, knowing that this man is going to die, and there's music playing. It's the whole you know, I've been to Paradise song playing yea, and the guy who reaches over and holds Joe's hand and he lets him and he sings the song to him and he holds his hand, and it's like, you know, on the one hand, you're sitting here going what is happening? But at the same time, you're like, this is a real human moment, Like this is you know, two humans, not two people fighting against each other, two people on the opposite sides of things, but like two human be and one of them is about to end his life and he just wants comfort and he wants someone there with him, and this is the person who's laying next to him. And so that's what's happening. And that's really interesting. It's an odd moment and brilliant because when you find out that whole thing is ad libbed, with the singing and the closeness that they have.

25:21 I love the fact that the guy is a obviously he's a terrible he's a scumbag, and he's he's dying. He's dying out right there on the on the kitchen floor. But he also reveals to Joe like it was in her sleep, she didn't feel a thing right. And I kind of feel like that gives Joe comfort and maybe that's why he is with this guy in his final moments, like you don't have to die alone. I'm here for you. And he kind of because like when you first see that that hand, that that hand, take that other hand, and you're like what, and then I thought, wait a minute, it's kind of a mutual respect in a weird, really twisted way. And a Lynn Ramsey, it's really it's messed up. It's a messed up scene, but it works, especially when they're kind of sharing this moment where they're singing the song together. Yeah, and I think Joe probably has guilt that his mother died alone and that he wasn't there, and he probably, because of her age and because of everything, always just envisioned that she would get sick or she would get old and she would pass away and he would be sitting by her holding her hand and she would die. And that is not what happened. But that's what he did for this man, and so it's it's just an interesting exchange that happens in that moment that's both bizarre and yet heartfelt at the same time, very very heartfelt. We're gonna take a quick break and when we get back gonna we're gonna talk a little bit about this film's background. We are back with Mary Kay from the Sherry Sandwich podcast talking about Lynn ramses, you were never

26:55 really here, Mary Kay. It's based on the Jonathan Ames twenty thirteen novella of the same name. He is a big fan of the film, was one of the producers actually, and Lynn writes and directs this adaptation. Now, we talked a little bit about the score and the music. Obviously, we talked about that cake song just being a weird choice but also kind of fitting. Something that kind of surprised me. Was the guitarist for Radiohead, Johnny Greenwood scored this film, and it just so happens it's the second time they've worked together because he also scored her twenty eleven film. We need to talk about Kevin. Oh, that's really interesting. I didn't know that.

27:45 I'll tell you if you're a Radiohead fan, first off, it's you know, they're a fantastic band. They are truly a great band. This score has what I would call a chaotic feel to it. It's messy, and when you realize that it's all about being inside Joe's head, it makes the score perfect. Yeah, And you know what's really interesting is in the very beginning there's sort of the sound mixing of the whispers and the sort of talking. I had to go back and watch it twice. It reminded me a little bit of zone of interest. I don't know if you saw a zone of interest, but before I saw a zone of interest, I hadn't ever really had a strong opinion about sound mixing as far as like winning an award for sound mixing. After I saw that movie, and I did see it in the theater, I left there and I thought, this movie has to win something for sound mixing, like the way that they sort of like juxtapose these awful sounds and birds tweeting and whatever. And it was the same thing that was happening in the beginning of this There's these moments of sort of like inaudible whispering and clearly terrifying music playing, which, now that you mentioned Radiohead, makes complete sense. Yeah, the way that it blends together and you're kind of going whoa, what's happening? This is heavy. I'm already scared and nothing has happened, and that's amazing. Like, I love kicking it off that way. Yeah, I'll tell you what I love kicking off with this movie. We open in Cincinnati, Ohio, and you know, hey, I am a hometown since I kid so uh. When that cab door

29:18 shuts and I see Cincinnati, I was like, all right, we're in Sinsey, you know, let's stop at Skyline. But that's right, He's quickly on his way to New York. This film, this blows my mind. By the way. This film was unfinished when it was submitted to the can Film Festival. Oh and it still wins Best Actor for Waquin Phoenix, Best Screenplay for Lynn Ramsey, and was nominated for the Palm Dure and almost took it. Wow. Yeah, yeah, there's a lot going on here. Yeah. Yeah, I do want to ask you this because I love the title of this film, because it immediately when you hear the title, you're you're already asking questions. It's released in France and Germany under the title A Beautiful Day, which is a reference to the last line of dialogue given in the film. From Nina when she says, Joe, wake up, it's a beautiful day. What what's the better title here? Mary Kay, you're there, you're you're a writer. Let me know, like we go on with the book title, We're going to go with a beautiful day.

30:23 That's really interesting. And I you know, I'm big on words and saying words that mean something and saying what you're meaning. And I think that especially in a title, very carefully choosing words, they all mean something. And I always think that's interesting when things are translated and you read what the translation is versus what it is in English or what you know, what it says in German or whatever. A beautiful day, I think I think you were never really here as a better title, because I think that that reference is directly sort of Joaquin's life, right, or Joe's life. Joe was in combat and he was never there. You know, we go in, we go out, we were never there. He goes into these situations, he helps these people, he was never there. It's and it's also sort of this greater existential thing that I think we all go through, right, which is we all come and go both from people's lives and from life itself, and so it's it's kind of a kind of a deep phrase. If you think about it. A Beautiful Day can also do the same thing, but I feel like you were never really here. It hits more for me.

31:32 It definitely hits more, especially when you think there's a there's a major theme of loneliness and isolation that I think tracks through this film. And maybe it's it's it's Joe's character telling his father, his mother, the people in his world you were never really here because he's so alone. Or again it's maybe it's the it's the people that hire Joe and we know you were never really here. I think it's I think it's way better if you told me, Hey, I need you to go over and pick up this movie for me off the shelf. It's called A Beautiful Day, and there were no titles and I just saw pictures. If you told me to go pick up A Beautiful Day, I'm expecting to pick up a box that has like George Clooney smiling at Joy Roberts or something of that nature on it. You know, I'm not not what quing phoenix staring menacingly at me, you know, from a thousand yards away, just like and you you could go back to you know, life is beautiful, right, the movie about World War two?

32:28 And you can. And that's also I always wonder it actually reminds me. I wonder what that translates to in other languages. I wonder what titles they used for that film and other languages. But I remember at the time thing and this is a really interesting title for this movie because it's not what you're expecting when you're, you know, getting a movie about Nazi war camps. But it's so you know, you can make it work. But it's this one you were never really here, you immediately know kind of what you're on board for. I think so too. Yeah, there are some really great moments in this movie. We've already discussed several of them. But let's talk about the pivotal scene. Mary Kay. I'm not talking about the moment that you saw on the trailer. I'm not talking about the climax of the film.

33:12 I'm just talking about the scene that you see it and you go, you know what, Without this moment, this movie is less. Is there a pivotal scene for you? Is there something that comes to mind for you when you watch you were never really here. Oh yeah, the moment that he walks into his mother's bedroom and sees her with the pillow over her face. That like, I just gave myself chills that moment. I audibly gasped because I thought they got him exactly where it hurts, and this is the last thing he has. That's it. His mom is really if you think about it, she's the last thing tethering him to this world. So now he's just totally unhinged. He's got nothing him back. He's got no reason to hold back because who cares. But then you get the beauty of him sort of taking care of the men downstairs and then going back up and having this really beautiful moment where he's taking his mom and he's putting on a suit and he's taking her to the car, and you know, taking a body out to a lake has never been so moving. Honestly, it was really, you know, and I wrote it down because it was amazing to me.

34:29 Again with the sound mixing, you know, his mom in the back of the car, she's wrapped in bags, and he rolls the window down and he's driving and you can hear the plastic rustling in the wind in the backseat, and I thought, oh, man, like, what imagine, you know, driving down the street being the guy that you are, and you're doing this and this is this is the last thing you ever wanted to do, the last thing that could possibly have broken you. And that's why it's amazing, you know, when he does fill his pockets with rocks and then he thinks about Nina and he takes him out, you know, that big moment. Also, how does how does such a morbid moment in the film become such a such a heartfelt moment though, you know, I just don't get it, because like the first time I watched this, I was I was really I was shocked, and I was a little appalled that his mother is wrapped in black plastic and duct tape in the back seat, and I was like, what what kind of monster are you? But then when you see how tender he he is, you know, preparing her and then and then taking her out, it's it's really it messes with your mind because you're like, this is this is I think this is abhorrent, But at the same time, this is what he knows and this is the best he can do. Yeah, And in that and that, in that regard.

35:52 It makes it a beautiful moment for his character. Yeah, I mean, and there's a certain amount of professionalism that comes with what he's doing, right, you know, it's sort of where his expertise meets his emotion and he's like, the best way to take care of this is to do X, Y and Z. So that's what we're doing. But I'm gonna put on a suit while I do it, and I'm going to take her to a beautiful place. And he very you know, gently picks her up, and he is very delicate with her. And I think that it's it's hard because it's the two parts of its his brain fighting against each other. You know. He obviously can't call someone and have a proper funeral for his mom after everything that's happened. It's just not real. Who would he call. He has nobody who'd he call, no one to call, so he has to make his own moment. And you know, the thing that I thought was actually really beautiful that I think moved me the most is he doesn't take her to the lake and drop her in. He walks her in, and he sinks with her, and then he releases her at the bottom and comes back up and that is not something that most people in a situation of disposing of a body would do. So it's it's there's it's an extra layer because it's his mother and he needs to do it in the best possible way he can.

37:08 And I'll be honest, we're we're actually this kind of this scene tethers to yours because this is my pivotal moment, him bearing his mother and his attempt at suicide by intentionally drowning himself. Because up to this point we've seen we've been inside his head and we've seen these these uh, these suicide fantasies that he's had, and this is the point where he's like ready to go, all right, this is it. I'm now, I'm me and my mom. I'm gonna go with her. Because when you're watching it, like the first time you see him picking up these these stones, you're like, oh, is he gonna bury your And then you know when you see him walking into the water, you're like, wait, what's the stones for? And he just kind of sinks this this really slow, beautiful moment where he's sinking and just looks so at peace, and you got to think, like, this is the one time in his in his in his world where there is no noise, right, there is no there is no pain. But we get that brief glimpse of Nina in his mind and then Okay, I've got more work to do. I've got a purpose. And he takes the rocks out and he allows himself to resurface, and then it's let's go get Nina. Yeah, because I think originally his mom was his final purpose and then with this mission, he added another one. And so he couldn't when he thought about it, like, am I really going to leave this person out in the world to just fester or whatever? Like he can't do it.

38:34 He can't do it because at the end of the day, he's a good person. He is. Let's talk about another good person. Let's talk about Lynn Ramsay for a minute. Born in Glasgow, Scotland. She studied fine art and photography. You mentioned that her she would have been a great photographer. She studied it. And here's here's what I love about her. She applies to film school on a whim after seeing Maya Darren's film Meshes of the Afternoon. Mary Kay, I have to I have to know, have you ever seen a film that that inspired you, that moved you so much that you decided to change the course of your career. Oh boy, that's a big question. That's a that's a very good question. I would say there have been films, there have been TV shows there. I mean, I would say there's a heavy emphasis. What's interesting about Lynn Ramsay is that because she is from the UK, I have a special place in my heart for UK writers, because any UK crime show is probably better than most American crime shows. And I know you're not lying. It's a very controversial thing to say, and a lot of people will argue with me about it, but it says something about her. I mean, I can think back on I mean, look, I'm gen X. I grew up watching cable when I wasn't. I saw The Shining when I was probably seven, which is not great. But that moment when I saw the Shining for the first time,

40:08 I was like this, I want to do this. And I've been a huge Stephen King fan ever since then, And so I would say that I would say it should have ruined me, but instead it sort of inspired me, like how did he come up with this? You know? And over the years I would go back to it, reading Firestarter and reading these other books and thinking, you know how he crafts these worlds, and he does it so efficiently. So yeah, I'm going to say I'm going to go with the shining interesting that you would pick a Stephen King project, because Stephen King will come up again here later on in our conversation, but for now, let's talk about her. We'll keep talking about Lynn. She graduates in nineteen ninety five from the National Film and Television School in England. She goes on to direct several award winning short films on the festival circuit, and she's known for using non chronological storytelling and often chooses projects that center around children and individuals going through trauma. And if you know anything about her filmography, that definitely tracks. So let's talk a little bit about her filmography with this caveat. We haven't done this before, but I kind of want to talk about some several projects that she was supposed to do and did not. Oh yes, please, because admittedly I have not seen a lot of her catalog I want to now, but I just haven't. So yeah, No, there's a short film on IMDb that I was looking at that I was really

41:39 hoping I would have time to watch, and I did not, so it will be one of the first things that I watch, probably this week when I have time. So her feature film debut, Rat Catcher in nineteen ninety nine, all about a naive young lad navigating the dirty streets of nineteen seventy three Glasgow and the poor youth around him. Definitely an independent film. I'm not familiar with anybody in it, although it looks like she's got some family in it, so this this was probably an indie But I don't know. No, I don't know a whole lot about it. Have you did you happen to see Ratcatcher? I did not know. I kinda I kind of feel like we're gonna move quickly through dough her hormography and and and with apologies to to miss Ramsey, but you know, but we're also gonna, you know, I feel like we're gonna do we got some homework when this is all said and done. Two thousand and two, she has another small budget film, Morvan Calor, and again I'm gonna say these are probably like UK based projects without without digging too deep, I know Samantha Morton is the star of this one. After her boyfriend's suicide. A morning supermarket worker and her best friend hit the road in Scotland but find that grief is something that you can't run away from forever. So here we go. We're talking about traumatized people and this, this is kind of like her. This is kind of like her jam. You know, she's I feel like she knows how to

43:10 tell this kind of story and maybe that's why she's she's sticking with it. What do you think? Yeah? No, And I have to say, you know, when I was reading sort of about the themes that she really focuses on, and I actually read a quote by a British film critic named Jonathan Romney, and he says she thinks not in concepts, but in images. She doesn't make intellectual films, but ones that are close to music, taking visuals to the point of abstraction. And I read that sentence and I thought, ooh, And then I watched it and then I learned that she was from the UK, and I'm like, Okay, all of these things mean that probably I should watch every single one of her movies. So let's we definitely got to talk about her her next one, and this is a very powerful movie. This is one. If you haven't seen it, you probably need to know a little bit about it before you get into it.

44:04 Talk about twenty eleven's we need to talk about Kevin Mary, Kay, did you see this one? I did not, but I do remember hearing about it, but I don't remember. I don't remember exactly what it was that I did hear about it, So I'm gonna need to go back and do some research. Yeah, this is the one. A lot of controversy around this one at the time. We need to talk about Kevin. This is the one where we've got a mother played by Tilda Swinton who's going through some extreme issues because her child is involved in a mass shooting at school. Yes, it's very hard to watch, you know, definitely has a lot to say about, you know, has a lot to say Tilda Swinton, John c Riley, Ezra Miller pre flashes here. There's a lot going on in this movie. And it's just some serious, serious emotions in this one, and it's fantastic. And that's another one where she She's one thing I love about her. She's directing and she's usually writing or co writing all of her stuff. Yeah, I mean, she really, really brings it in.

45:20 Yeah, And I feel like if you can, that would be ideal, right, because you either want to be collaborating with someone that you know well or doing it yourself because at the same time, like I don't know, and obviously there are many examples of people who have done it where there's been separate writers and directors. But I feel like writing it yourself and directing it. You know, in your brain as you're writing something, you can see the light coming through the window, and you can see how this character holds themselves and you can see, you know, as you're putting the words on the page. So I think there's something really special that happens when people do that. Absolutely. Now I did mention. I do want to talk about several projects that she was supposed to do and they never never came to fruition.

46:01 Right before she does, we need to talk about Kevin two thousand and four. She was the original director attached to The Lovely Bones. Oh interesting, Yeah, Now, this is a situation where she deals with a lot of frustration from the studio she does. And Mary, you're Mary Kay, You're a writer, so I know you can relate to this kind of frustration. She is handling. She's handing in draft after draft, and depending on which suit she's talking to, it's can we get a happier ending? This didn't happen in the book. This should have been in the book, but it's not. Can you put it in? Back and forth, back and forth. She's trying to adapt this novel. She ultimately steps away, thinks better of it. Peter Jackson takes her place. And I got to say, this film, largely panned by critics, not what you expect from Peter Jackson, and I think that's one of the reasons it failed. Yeah.

46:58 No, I mean I think it's frustrating because especially in an adaptation, and I think especially with these big budget movies, and I kind of think that's why there's sort of a lot of people that are moving away from sort of the bigger budget things. You can read the original script, and I've done this online where you can go download the original script for a movie and then you can just see how it was just absolutely decimated as it went through the process, and you're like, oh, why didn't they keep this character? Oh, it would have been so great if they'd done this, you know, And you can really feel for the directors, as you can imagine the frustration that they were up against, right, and then they're getting absolutely panned by the media for something that genuinely was not their fault. So yeah, I could see walking away from something, and I can see why she's probably kept it. Indie, you know, you get your money, and you get people on board, and you say this is what I want to do, and they go, okay, great, here you go. Enjoy.

47:55 And I'm a big lover of an indie film, you know, and I've seen many that I have loved that made no money for anyone, and it's a real shame that they didn't because they were beautifully executed, but because they don't have, you know, the big industry behind them, you don't hear about them, or you don't get the chance to see them. So I can see how that would be frustrating. It would be hard for me to take one of my books and watch someone just chop it into pieces and change the ending and change the characters and change the motivations, and it would be it would be excruciating. Well after twenty eleven's we need to talk about Kevin. I mean, she's got a lot of she's got a lot of a lot of heat. She's got a lot of cred going for her. So she partners with Nallie Portman in twenty thirteen, and she is originally slated to direct Jane Got a Gun. Now, this was originally this is the Nlly Portman movie where she's got to you know, get revenge on some wrestlers that you know, she's got team up with her ex, her ex, her to you know, avenger husband, that kind of thing. Ramsey leaves the day before their first day of shooting. Wow, And this is all due to creative differences with a couple of the producers. Now, depending on who who you listen to or what what you what you listen to, Uh, there's some shady stuff going on with these with these producers. She was sued for breach of contract and kind of received a little bit of a backlash from

49:29 Hollywood, but ultimately they dropped they dropped the they dropped the lawsuit. But the damage is done at that point, you know, it's like, oh, okay, you know, creative differences were difficult to work with. She just she bails on us the day before and again, this is a movie that you know, even Jude Law walked away from that one. It's I don't know if you've seen it, it is it's not a good film. I have not seen it, but I can tell you that as soon as a woman is labeled difficult in the industry, it goes. It really takes things to an extreme. You know, you hear about that, you hear they direct one thing, and it's like, well, she was kind of difficult. So meanwhile you hear about people who are the absolute worst on a film set, who are just a nightmare to work with. But like, but you know, he's the guy that does X, so we've got to have him back to another film, even though everyone hates him. So it's you know, I'm sure that it didn't do her any favors, and I'm not trying to just you know, obviously it's not There are many male directors that I love and respect, but I think that it does go a long way when you label a woman as difficult, because then everyone's like, oh, she was the one who was X, Y and Z, Like I can get my friend to direct this and we won't have to deal with that problem. And then you get a movie that's just a dumpster fire because of it. But it makes billions of dollars, so everyone's like, no problem.

50:53 I'm kind of glad that the situation happens with Jang on the gun because her her fix, Like when she was like, you know what, I'm out of here, she heads off and she starts adapting the book, so you know, for you were never really here. So I think she was taking a step in the right direction because this movie is just amazing. It really is. It was very surprising for me. I was expecting, like I said before, expecting one thing and got something completely different, Like this is something now that I'm going to be talking about for the next couple weeks. Well before we talk about what's coming up next. For Lynn Ramsey, I want to talk. I want to tell you about two more projects. You mentioned Stephen King and that was your inspiration. In twenty twenty, it was announced that she was going to be directing an adaptation of Stephen King's The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon? Oh did you happen to read that one?

51:47 I did not, But that's all my fun. It's not your typical Stephen King book, and it's such a great it's such a great one. I really would recommend that to anyone that loves Stephen King. You know, it's not for everyone. I get it. It's not it's not so much a horror based story that that he's known for. It's it's just it's a little it's a little different, and uh, I would have loved to see it. I don't know. I went as soon as I've found this out, I was like, Okay, well, what happened to it? Where's it at? It's been for it's been four years, no other information about it. It's just interesting that I've heard that he's pretty hands off with stuff. I've heard that he's kind of like, you'd take this and you make it your own. You know. He has that whole program where you can buy the rights to one of his short stories for a dollar. I don't know if you heard about this what I know that. So it's certain stories that he's available, and you can sort of write a pitch. If you're a student and around you want to make a student film or something, yeah, you can pitch and he'll sell you the rights and you can do it for a dollar. And because he thinks it's fun to see people take something of his and turn it into something. And I'm sure, there have been times he's had opinions and I'm sure you know, but in general, from what I understand, he's not one of the nightmares to work with when you're adapting something of his. Nice. I dig that about him. Yeah, me too. Let me ask you what you feel about this one? Off and on. She has planned to direct a modern adaptation of Herman Melville's Moby Dick,

53:21 but she wants to set it in space, A good for her. I don't even know what that looks like. But I have like you got you got you, you have my you have my curiosity, you know. Yeah, I'm like, okay, I'm in let's see, let's hear the pitch. You know, I think at a certain point when you have classics like that, you know, I mean, you know, I wrote a book a couple of years ago that I can't sell to save my life. That's, you know, about Jesus as an alien, and it's it's too much for most people brain's around. But when you take something like Moby Dick, right that everyone knows and it's been around, and you know the themes, and it's really a book that's more about the themes than what actually happens, so you could take it and theoretically turn it on its head and do something with it. You know, It's there's a million different ways to do it. I mean, I don't know if you saw Garama del Toro's Pinocchio a few years ago, but you watch the Disney Pinocchio, you watch that Pinocchio. They're very different Pinocchios, very very different videos. It's brilliant, but it wrecked me for a week. So it's I would be really interested to hear the pitch for that. I would love to be in the room to hear about that. Well, let me, uh, you know, let me tell you about the three that she's got that that are happening, you know, all right, because I'm excited. I'm looking at these three and I am actually excited about them. So she's got two in pre production and she's got one in post production. So right now, she's in pre

54:53 production on a film called Die My Love starring Jennifer Lawrence. Actually supposed to start filming a few weeks ago, and it just sounds great. In a remote, forgotten royal area, a mother struggles to maintain her sanity as she battles with psychosis I'm in sign up Jennifer Lawrence. Think about what she did in Silver Lyon's Playbook or Mother. Yeah, let's yeah, make it happen. Let's go. I know, I know you know about this one. We talked about this briefly of off air Stone Mattresses starring Julianne Moore and Sondra o is in pre production Mary Kay, a revenge thriller set on a cruise ship in the Arctic. Let's go. Also Sandra Oh and Julie I mean again, these actresses they sign me. Yes, that's two powerhouse performers going head to head. Definitely will be great. Also definitely great is the film that she has in post production, So we're definitely gonna see this one.

55:57 Uh one, This one's called Polaris. She's back with Joaquin Phoenix and she's got Rooney Rooney Mara with her, who I absolutely adore. Yeah. Wait, isn' Joaquin Phoenix married to Rooney Mora or did I make that up? Is she? I don't know. We might check that they might used to be married or are married, but I think it's see it. I can see it. Uh, Ramsey must have something for for the Arctic because this movie is set in Alaska during the eighteen nineties. Oh and it's all about an ice photographer who meets the devil. Okay, I'm in yeah, Joaquin Phoenix, Runey Mara, who's the Who's a photographer? Who's the devil?

56:42 I mean, there's the other that could go either way, right, but I think I think it could go either way. I'd love to see him as the photographer. That's what I'm thinking, because like part of me is thinking, Okay, she was a photographer, she is a photographer. You know, Is Rooney Mara gonna channel Lynn Ramsey or is this is it? Are we gonna have some with this and Rooney mar is gonna be the devil? You can go either way with it. And I think it's great. So well, and that's great actually, I mean, riding on the heels of this last season A True Detective taking place in Alaska, I feel like the people are really going to be down for that, I think. So I gotta everyone's talking about this the season four True Detective. I have got to get I gotta get a day off so I can watch it because it just sounds amazing. It's a whole thing, but it's good. Well, Mary Kay, let's talk about your recommendation for this film. You were never really here. What's your thoughts? You know you recommend this one. I would recommend this one, I think, you know, with a lot of movies, I sort of recommend with hesitation to certain people and then you add disclaimers for the others. You know, obviously, if you're triggered by violence against women, if you're triggered about violence against children, maybe it's not going to be the best movie for you. But also on what's great about it is you don't see it. You know it's implied, and what you really see is you really see, you know, a man who's struggling with his mental health, who's struggling with being alive, who's struggling with who he is,

58:15 and watching him slowly sort of crumble and then be built back up is fascinating. But I you know, when I think about it, I think I can think of specific people that I would not recommend it to and specific people that I would recommend it to. So it's all my you know, UK true crime people, one hundred percent, all those guys absolutely like you know, I would I would go online and recommend this, But with a blanket statement that just says, hey, heads up, if any of those if any of these things are a problem for you, maybe skip it. But if not, you know. I have to say, though, one thing that I noticed, and I just remembered this is remember a Joker, how he did that thing with his shoulder where he can kind of double joint his shoulder. He did it in this movie, and I'm like, that's the first time he did this. Anyway, side note, that's how my brain works. But yeah, I would say also, anybody who liked Joker or you know, anything else tho Joaquin Phoenix does because he's great. Yeah, so I would say, yes, I would recommend it absolutely. I mean when you see when you see Joe versus Joker, and you see the physical transformation that he does because he Joaquin's a bit of a chameleon. When he slips into these roles and he goes he goes for it. You know.

59:30 Todd Phillips never asked him to drop forty five fifty pounds to play Arthur Fleck in The Joker. He just did it because he thought that's who the character is. I mean, yeah, so hats off to him. This film. It is I Yeah, it's so good. This movie is an intense, gripping thriller that hits you as hard as the ballpeen hammer that Joaquin chooses to use as his preferred weapon. It's an Amazon original, so you will find it there streaming on Prime. I absolutely recommend it. It's not the feel good movie of you know, it's not Sunday Night with the family, and it's not for like the John Wick or Bust type crowd either. It's somewhere in between because it's got a lot to say. Yeah, speaking of a lot to say, listeners, what do you think of? You were never really here? Let us know on social media. We're on Facebook, Instagram, and Twitter. You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for all of our film and TV articles and our entire library, which is streaming free. And you can write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some a film by swag.

1:00:43 And this Friday, our limited series nineteen ninety six returns with Mary Rightley. Wait, how did we not catch that Mary Kay covering Mary Riley? I should have had you for that I will come back anytime. You just tell me and I'm back, all right. You might have to you might have to cram that one in. Uh. I know Amber Lewis will be with us. We're going to discuss the pros and cons, mostly cons of dating your employer, especially when he's doctor Jekyl or is it mister Hyde. We'll find out Friday, and next time on a film by we'll discuss a film by another incredible female director. When the conversation focuses on Greta Gerwig's twenty seventeen comedy Lady Bird, Mary Kay, I cannot thank you enough for joining me today to talk about this film. I know, I know. I kind of shot this one to you, said hey, I'd love to talk to you about this movie. And this is before I mean we had I feel like we got to know each other quite well on on your pop when we when we when we answered your your famous questions. But at the same time, I really had no frame of reference to what kind of movies you like, what kind of literature you like, And as a watching this the first time after I proposed this to you, I was like, yeah, she might say, no, I don't know this could this could go either way?

1:02:07 I don't know. I hope she enjoys it, but I can tell you this, I have enjoyed having you with us today and definitely will hope that you'll come back and join us for more. Oh, I'll come back anytime you want. This is literally one of my favorite things to do is to talk about movies. I'm a big nerd about this kind of stuff, so I'm in perfect. Well, one more time, you got to tell us where we're going to find your podcast? You know, are you on social media links? I know you're on social media, so can you give us a quick rundown? Where where do our listeners find your show? And and more about Mary Kay and shaff Sandwich Sure Share A Sandwich podcast is everywhere that you listen to podcasts, Spotify, Apple, everywhere you want, so it's there anytime you need it. We post weekly, so it's always a different person, always a different type of person talking about different stuff. It's fun. My latest adventure has been discussing TV shows and movies on TikTok.

1:03:04 It's my newest adventure and got really into it during True Detective. So if you are watching True Detective and want to get into some seriously nerdy conversations, then come over to at Mary kay Holmes on TikTok. Listeners please check out Mary kay Holmes on TikTok, check out the Share a Sandwich podcast and How Did You Do? How to Do? How to Do? Had to drop me a letter. I had to hire the band Grand Band him the land had to drop me a letter. I had to hire the ban brand the welcome mat for you. Oh, I don't know where you came from.

1:03:46 I don't know where you been