Phasers Set To Stun: Star Trek II The Wrath of Khan

0:01 Space the Final Frontier. Join us for a bold conversation our prime directive to recap our favorite Star Trek shows, both new and old, to engage and debate about all things Trek. Prepare to energize with Phasers Set to Stunt. Hello, listeners, and welcome to an all new episode of Phaser Sect to Stun, where we continue to show our love for everything Star Trek in this ongoing series from a film by podcast focusing on every system of the expanding Star Trek universe by covering television, movies, animation, directors, merchandise, and much more. Plotting your course on this voyage is your Core Trek crew. I'm Wayne Whiten, I'm David.

1:05 Burns, yet I'm Skyt Hoffman. And today we're taking a shuttle back to the nineteen eighties, nineteen eighty two to be exact, and taking a close and detailed look at the second entry into the Star Trek film franchise, Star Trek two, The Wrath of Khan. This is the second film to start the original series cast and was written by Harv Bennett and Jack B. Sowards and directed by Nicholas Mayer Scott. Why don't you give Us a short summary of the film. Time is catching up with James T. Kirk, a past that haunts's future is coming to bear in more ways than one. He's celebrating his birthday as an admiral, inspecting an updated enterprise that's been infused with new cadets who are being trained by Captain Spock. Inspections are cut short when a mysterious call comes from an old flame, Carol Marcus.

1:53 She's developing a terraforming technology that creates life from lifelessness, or in the wrong hands, decimates all life on a world to create a new one in its place. She thinks Kirk has ordered Starfleet to steal Genesis from her, which he hasn't, but the USS Reliant is on its way to do just that. This is all part of an intricate trap set by Kahn, a genetically augmented villain from the original series who seeks revenge on Kirk for maruining him on the healthscape of SETI Alpha Vive. As he faces off against Kahn, Kirk meets his own grown son he never knew he had as he fights to save his crew and his family from obliteration under the tyranny of Khan. This movie is an action packed adventure that revitalized the franchise and set a high bar for all movies to follow.

2:37 Now, while Star Trek the Motion Picture was a financial success for Paramount, it was heavily panned by critics and fans. The executives of Paramount wanted to change for the second film, which meant this series creator Gene Roddenberry was forced out of the sequel's production. Now, we're all very familiar with this film. It's no secret that it's most Star Trek fans favorite. So let's talk about it. David. We'll hear from you first. Well, I mean, you kind of really touch base on this. A lot of Star Trek fans consider this to be the the best Star Trek of all the films. I think Undiscovered Country is the best, but this is a very close second in my opinion, and it clearly has the most memorable scenes of any Star Trek film. Oh yeah, you know, with with you know, Kurt, you know, streaming Cohn to the death of Spock. You can't get beyond those scenes. You cannot think of the wrath of con without thinking of those scenes right away. What I loved about this film is it did indeed bring back Star Trek to me a kid, as a kid, you know, because I mean, don't get me wrong, motion picture was a great film and that we discussed this when you talked about motion Picture that you know, twelve year old me wasn't a fan of the motion picture. But as an adult I am. Whereas this one when it came out, I was thrilled because it felt like that Star Trekking that I saw in reruns, you know, the the Kirk, the spot. All of them were back in where they needed to be. And you had a true villain in

4:09 this one with Kahan, and you know, Ricardo Montabon was absolutely stunning as con as a villa. Yeah, in this film when he gets that reveal of of who it is, even when Chekhov realizes where they're at and he realizes, oh my god, get out of here. This is the Botany Bay. We gotta go, We gotta go, and it was too late of course by that point. But then the reveal to Kirk when he comes on screen and he sees who it is, with the reliant, incredible moments. Man, I love this film. Yeah. For me, it's my first dip into Star Trek and I imagine there's a lot of people in our generation that that's true. Like I had not seen the original series. I was kind of tangentially aware of it, but had never necessarily sat down to watch it until this.

4:57 I'm pretty sure I saw it at home on VA or on HBO or wherever it had happened to be, but I was immediately hooked. This one has so much more accessibility and reach, I would say, than the motion picture. At the point where it came out, you know, they were already part of popular culture, so you kind of had an idea for at least Kirkans back walking into it. They very quickly get you familiar with everybody you need to know. At the time when I saw it, I had no context for Khan, so I just trusted Chekhov's scared reaction. Aside from the fact that they just dip you right into not only the action, but a bit of the terror and intrigue. I think we're seeing a lot of influence from something like Alien in this one, where as a kid, there were a lot of places where it was scary to watch, like when they get onto the Genesis station and they discover the dead bodies, like there's stings of music where I was just like, holy crap, I'm gonna see like dead bodies and stuff like this is horrific. So I think it appeals to so many people. It was a great follow up to the motion picture to kind of prove that this can this can appeal to people who are not just fans.

6:14 There's a lot of people that kind of get into this universe. And I mentioned the earworms come on man. Oh yeah, no, no, no day nasty. Yeah. I was very similar to what you said, Scott. This was my first introduction to Star Trek. I didn't see the motion picture in theaters, but I did see Star Trek two, and you know, I was a big fan. I was Star Wars, a Battlestar Galactica fan. That was me growing up. So I was used to these space battles and we got that in this film and I loved it. I mean I took to it right away, and I remember coming home afterwards and you couldn't buy There was no merchandise with this, and they didn't have any spaceships or anything. So I made my own out of clay nice and would do the space battles that way.

7:03 I mean it really had a great impact on I'll see how old I've been, about ten years old at the time, so you know, it's a great film. It everything that they I love the motion picture, don't even wrong. I love that film. It's one of my favorites. I fluctuate back and forth between what's my favorite Star Trek film? You ask me every week, it's going to be different, but this is always high on the list. It is everything that they did that people consider were wrong with Star Trek the motion picture they did right with this film. You know, they corrected their mistakes and made a film that's not just for Star Trek fans, but for the viewer that has no idea about Star Trek, like ten year old me. It's a great film. It's not just a great Star Trek film. It's a great film. And wasn't it recently It wasn't it recently voted to be go into the what I can't think the motion picture archives or whatever that's called. Yes, it is true for great American cinema.

8:04 Yeah, without question. And as as we know, Jerry Goldsmith did not do the music for the for this movie just because of the They didn't want Jerry Goldsmith and he was busy too. He was too expensive. He was too expensive, Yes, and they wanted to go with really an. Unknown who was cheap. And what we all know James Horner, now we do, who did a really good job with this score. Might only complaint with this score is it sounds too much like Battle Beyond the Stars, which he did in nineteen eighty. Yes, so there, But it fits this movie perfectly, So don't get me wrong. I don't want to pick on it because I love James Warner. Whane, you know I love James Warner. Oh yes it is.

8:44 I have almost all of his scores, and unfortunately, you know, we lost him, you know, quite a few years ago. But I think he did a fantastic job with the score in this Did you guys know he's in this movie? That's right, I forgot about that. Yep. He is one of the guys running down the hallway right before they battle con right before they're they're lifting up the sidewalk kind of thing. Not sidewalk, but you know these metal great grates for the tory for the torpedo, but the photo of torpedo. He was running down the hallway right before that scene. But yeah, no, I think James Horner. Did a really good job with this. Oh he did, you know the action. Sound and James Horner loves the anvil. You hear that in a lot of his scores. And I know we're gonn talk a bit more about his score a little bit.

9:28 Later, but I just wanted to point that out. It's a highlight of the film. It is, and there's so many different things. And this is also they changed the visual effects company this. The visual effects was done by Industrial Light Magic, who at the time was just really I mean, they've done Star Wars and Empire Strikes Back, but they hadn't really branched out to do other films. So this was their first thing doing other than Star Wars, and they are the best, and they showed that they are the best in the business with the effects. They're incredible. You've reused a lot of effects from the should picture because they had to, they had to save money exactly. But what they came out that battle in the guitar and Nebula is amazing. It is very suspenseful and it puts you on the edge of your seats.

10:11 Yeah, well, I get so. I mean, like when you're talking about James Horner and the kind of the variety of things that you get in this movie, which, to say the least, is the return of the fun Kirk. Yes, I think in a motion picture we got kind of the subdued, You didn't get that suave debonair kind of you know, almost comedic action from him. And the range of the plot is echoed in the range of the score. You get the terror, you get that action and adventure, you get the light moments like when they're in the Genesis Cave, even though it seems like it should be one of the tense moments. He's asking for an apple, he's huggy. So there's a lot of great range in this and I think that goes back to the accessibility of it. It shows how much range there is in a start to movie.

11:00 Yeah, because that was one of the big complaints about the motion picture is that a lot of people felt that the characters were rather cold to themselves. They weren't there weren't the type of characters that they remember from the original series. And I know we discussed that on our motion picture postcast, that there had been years between where they had you know, these characters have never seen one another, so I, you know, put it up as that. But here now we got another time jump. I don't know if it's I think it's close to like ten years time jump between the motion picture and this. But now they've been been with each other for a long time. So now we've got that friendship, that that that you know, chemistry that we saw with the original series right here, and it's fantastic. We finally get the characters that we remember from the sixty series.

11:45 This movie does such a great job of two reveals. One is when Kirk is revealed after they do the tath with FABC, when you know, you get that filhouette shot of him with the light behind him. I love that reveal of him. I thought that was an absolutely incredible to an introduction to his character in this movie. The second reveal is obviously con He gets revealed twice though, which is fantastic, once to check Off and then once to Kirk Kirk's. Kirk's reaction to that was just phenomenal when he sees him pop up. In the screen. I mean, wouldn't you be the guy's been gone for fifteen years and you just put him out of your mind because you thought you would never see him again and here he is, holy crap, and he's got a he's got the reliant. So, you know, that was a really cool scene. And going back to what you were discussing way that these characters really felt like their characters again, you really had that depth of characters between McCoy and Spock. Again, we had a little bit in the motion picture, but in this one you had a lot more of that, and it felt genuine and real, just like it did in the TV show.

12:54 One of the lines that. I absolutely love is when Spot to Jim be careful and McCoy leans and he goes, we will. We will be love. Oh yeah, Well, and that's, you know, getting back to what you were saying earlier about you get to see the relationship between them kind of be kindled. That happens immediately in the Kobashi Muru, which is a brilliant way to start it. I think that's something that comes up a lot in this movie, but also it's echoed through the rest of the franchise. But they in that simulation, they're all kind of powling around like Gym's like, aren't you supposed to be dead? To shop to Spock. Yeah, and soon After that, you get the exchange of presents, right the romulant ale, the glasses, the dialogue you have between them, you immediately get the connectivity throughout. Not to mention Scotty, which I think there are two different ways to see this movie depending on how it's cut, whether we find out that his nephew is part of the engineering crew or we don't. I think without that reveal, it's interesting to see Scotty carry his nephew's body onto the bridge because then you're reading it as he cares so much for these cadets. He's gotten so close to these cadets that he sees him as one of his own, so he's heartbroken at this loss. You got a different kind of death when you find out that it's his nephew,

14:26 and it's kind of hinting at the future, like you've got generations being passed on, you've got them moving on and kind of welcoming that new crew and knowing that they're already that close. It's just the relationship, that connectivity that we see in things like Straight New Worlds that adds more death to Star Trek. Even his line when they were in the medical bay with him and he was dying and Scott, mister Scott was like he stated his post when the trainees ran, Yeah, broke just broke your heart. Man, Yeah, absolutely, yeah, yeah, you get it. Talking about the the opening sequences, I think that's just a fantastic way of opening the film. With the Kobeyashi Maru scene. I mean, you got you got this ship.

15:08 We don't know which ship it is. You know, you got this crew we've never met before, and they're being attacked by the Klingons, and then all of a sudden it's you discovered that it's just a training maneuver, and you get Kirk spot McCoy as we originally remembered them, and this this great sequence about his birthday. What a fantastic way of opening this film and showing everyone that, hey, this is the Star Trek that you guys wanted, this is what you remember. It's perfect. I really appreciated, and I believe there were stuff that went on behind the scenes with the script and stuff like that about an aging about an aging Kirk. Yeah, and at first they didn't want that they wanted I think with William Shatner, who didn't want that right at first.

15:49 Yeah, he was a little worried about. Age, but it works in this film. It does so well, even with the whole glasses thing, when when he's on the bridge and he's trying to hide his conversation with Kahn who's on the screen, and he's pulling his glasses out and kind of like looking around a little bit like he's kind of embarrassed of pulling his glasses out, you know, because he needed them to see. I love that we need to see an aging Kurt because he is, for crying out loud. He's been out there running around the galaxy fighting and you know it, going on journeys and adventures, and you need to see that. And I'm glad they went that route. I really am. Well, let's talk about a little bit out the changes that they made in this film. The big one is the uniforms. What do you think about these uniforms compared to the ones that the motion picture had.

16:39 I think it's a I think it's an upgrade. Yeah, for sure. You don't have the unfortunate below the below the belt buckle kind of situation. Yeah, to say it delicately, but I mean it has so much texture and so many layers to it. Uh, there's the added kind of effect to the action where you see Jim kind of unbuckle lapel or whatever, so it folds over right and you've got like blood stains apparently that occasionally they kind of appear. I think it adds a lot of interest to it, and it definitely modernized it for a new generation. Yeah, I completely agree with you on that, Scott. I love the uniforms on this. I think it was a great addition. They felt more like a command crew of a navy ship. You know, obviously they're in space, but you know, you still have that same kind of vibe going on, and it really felt like that to me a lot more and again it felt more like Star Trek because of that.

17:38 Yeah, I mean that's what they were going for too. They were going for that, that that naval look and style. There there were a lot of fans that were against that. They they didn't like the style and you know, of the new uniforms, and felt that they went too far away from the original series. But I think they're they're fantastic. They look really sharp. Yeah, I know. They they've been dubbed the Monster Monster Maroon uniforms, and for poor old cosplayers, they are incredibly difficult to reproduce because of the unusual materials and styles that was used to make them. And they keep these always through six and farther and farther.

18:20 But it just mean for the O G crew because actually, yeah, they're in it in generations too, aren't they coming? Yeah? All right, yeah, you're right. Well, and speaking of costumes, you've got Con and his mad Max vibes with a you know, b Arthur Stell mullet. But really showing the chest there too. Oh yeah, really him. You got to be proud of it, right, you're sixty and you're rocking those packs. Go ahead, yep, yep. But all the little details like the little skeletal glove that he's got wearing the belt buckle of a killed crew member is a kind of a mister T kind of thing. Yeah, it's it was really cool to see somebody who doesn't belong in that future that is kind of staying alive with the scraps coming back and just kicking their butts, like they should have listened to Savoc. I'm sorry, they should have listened to Savac and put up to the shields, but got caught with their bridges down.

19:19 So and here's another new addition to this film. We got Kirsty Ally as Savag. What were your thoughts on her? I wish we had seen more of Savak. I think she did a great job. I think it was a good idea to have some infusion of some new talent. It reminds me a lot of Kim Katroll's character in The Undiscovered Country, which we'll talk about a little bit later in the what ifs. I'm glad that her character continued. I think we had a great continuation of that character in Star Trek three. But knowing that Kirsty Ally was a fan of Star Trek that should go to bed as a kid wearing the spot ears.

20:04 She did that too all filming the movie too. Right, like that's a fan that But I think she did great. When when I learned all that, it's like, Wow, She's like the Tommy Newsome of this age, the of the o G you know, so I I appreciate that more. But I actually loved her character. I wish we had gotten a whole lot more of her. And my understanding is they thought that she would possibly replace Spock because. They're gonna kill Spock off is what they intended. But then of course Paramount snuck in that little tidbit at the end with with you know, his casket, which I which I find amusing, by the way, because Lennard Emo even made the comment because he didn't know they filmed that, and apparently when he saw that, I was like, well, I guess I'm expecting a phone call from Paramount.

20:47 He's sitting in the theater either throws his popcoring down or says like, okay, got another paycheck. There we go. Yeah. I think she did a phenomenal job as Savog. I like Robin Curtis's performance three and four, but I think Kirstie's performance is was it was different. You know, she she's a vulcan, or at least half vulcan. It never really said that in the film that you know, but she's it's assumed that she's half fulk and half romulent. But the way she has to try to hold back her emotions and rather unsuccessful. She just performed it so beautifully and it was a great, uh you know double act with with Leonard Nimoy just just fantastic and like, like both of you, I wish we would have saw more of her, And I know they tried, they tried getting her back, but she just became a very uh successful actress and while she wanted to come back, she just never could work it out with her schedules.

21:46 Yeah. I mean, it's coud with her for all the work she was getting. But oh yeah, it sucks for us Star Trek fans that we couldn't get her back. Yeah. Yeah, Well, I'll tell you what. Let's let's take. A break and then when we come back, we'll continue our discussion with Star Trek The Wrath of con All right, welcome back, where we will continue our discussion. Hair Fhaser set this done with Star Trek The Wrath of Cohn. So we just talked about Christy Ally. I think we've got to give another nod to Ricardo Montalban for what he did with this. It's fascinating to know that he was filming Fantasy Island at the time, so he already was kind of back in popular culture. Had to kind of rewatch episodes to get refamiliar with the character, and he did so seamlessly. He delivered such a terrifying performance as a villain that never comes face to face with Kirk, not just crazy in person, but right right, You never think of it, but yeah, and you know, his character just echoes. When you think of like, who is the greatest villain in Star Trek, his name is always at or near the top, which.

22:49 Is always odd because, I mean you really think about it. He made one appearance in the original series during the first season, just one appearance. I mean, you know, it was a very strong appearance, obvious, you know, for someone to watch and says, we got to bring him back, and that was the right decision because he makes such an incredible villain and a perfect adversary for William Shatner, for Kirk just it's an incredible performance, very very emotional performance that he puts into it a highlight to this film. What always makes a great villain is that you care about them, that you almost see what they're talking about, what they believe in, and what they're fighting for. It may be wrong, they may make the wrong choices, but when you have such a strong villain, and I'm talking like Darth Vader, you care about him. Anakin Skywalker and in this instance, con you know, you kind of see where he's coming from. Yeah, and you kind of care about that, and you see that he believes wholeheartedly in what he's doing, cares about the people who have been around him for all of those years, and you know, even says you would do the same thing.

24:05 You know, he says that, and you would absolutely. Yeah, he lost sixty people, including his wife. That's not to write him a check for all the atrocities that he did before he was outcast in the Bany Bay. But yeah, I mean he he sells the emotional halt of it, to be sure, even in his death scene when he kind of stumbles up with that Harvey Dent two faced kind of approach and you can see him struggling, but every bit of him wants to just get revenge on Kirk. So he says it one hundred percent, and.

24:47 He's obsessed with it. And that's what he has his crew and him, their lives. Exactly what I was going to say. You know, he you understand where he's coming from. I mean, you know, they put him on a planet. They just forgot about him, and then that devastating thing happened to the plane, and you know, he lost so many people, and he wants revenge, but he lets the revenge take him over and he becomes obsessive with it to the point where you know, he loses everything, and it's that's what his downfall is. Has revenged his obsessions session for getting revenge against Kirk is his downfall. And that's just I. Mean, that's what makes a perfect, perfect film. Perfect ending to a film is you know the rise and follow of that villain. Yeah.

25:29 Well, and one of the most iconic deaths in Star Trek. Yeah, which hats off again to Leonard Nimoy for his performance from the minute he realizes what he has to do on the bridge until his literal dying breath. It floored me, like emotionally, it floored me when I was a kid and I had no context for it. And you see how close they are and how much this means, and what kind of a strong character Spock is. It's almost like and I know they cleared the set when they filmed the death of Spock. There was like they were did not let hardly anybody on set when this was being filmed because they did not want it to leak out, and thank god it didn't. You truly believe the performances of these actors in that scene because they have been together for so many years, they were in that TV series together, and you know, they're you know, like our next chanshion Cup.

26:26 They were family. And when one of them is dying, granted it is on you know, just in a film, but you're still losing that character who you have been with for so long. That is almost like a part of you is truly being taken away. And you can see that in their performances, all of them. Even when McCoy and Scotty were banging on the glass, they get him out of there, and then when you know, when McCoy reaches out to Kirk tells him you need to get down here, and then when Kirk gets down there, you just see it in their eyes, their expressions. I don't think any of that's fake, man, I don't know. No. Oh god, that line where he says better hurry, Yeah, yeah. Absolutely yeah. I mean that's such a memorable scene. It's such an iconic scene as Star Trek repeated over and over again in pop culture, and that just shows how much of an impact this film made it to science fiction, not just Star Trek, but science fiction and film. It's it's it was a huge impact on Star Trek. You know, people, I heard that on the set that when they were filming that people were crying, and some of the crew that had never seen Star Trek they didn't understand why these people were crying until they watched the film, and then they realized how much these characters mean to people, you know, who sit there and watch the original series.

27:47 I love that story. And let's give kudo to Lennonimoy. He really sold that performance of dying Yes when he was like cuddled in the corner far away, you know, obviously very weakned eyeing, and he fully makes his way over to Kirk, and just the performance with the end of do and how he just slides down and Kirk slides down with him, and then just how the skin is just you know all you know. His voice is a raspy. Yes, yes voice. It's just incredible performance by learning more. Here well, and the when you're mentioning that scene where he kind of stands up, the fact that he does the card maneuver straightening. Yeah, he stands up straight to have some dignity even though he bumps into the glass.

28:31 But you feel horrible for him because radiation has blinded him, and he takes that extra time to you know, tell his friend that it's all right, he knows what he had to do. M Yeah, it's the best death in Star Trek. It just it really is. And I don't I hope they never even they're never going to to surpass that. They can't can't. There's just no way. Well, and I know that it doesn't always hit right when they try to replicate it, like when they tried to redo it in the Crispine era, it didn't necessarily hit.

29:12 In my opinion at all. But I think it shows the value of having some emotional connections between the characters and the value of character building. We've seen it in Lower Decks. We've seen it in Strange New Worlds. We've seen it in Discovery, We've seen it in the Next Generation in DS nine and all over the place. The value of building those characters and knowing those characters can resonate with people that it's not just dismissing it as sci fi or dismissing it as Star Trek. I'm not into the space stuff. You're missing something entirely if you're not seeing these kind of things. One of the lines in this movie that just chokes me up every time, and it's meant to is when Kirk is giving that speech at the end and he says, of all the souls I have met in my travels, he was the most and then he breaks up right there human. Yeah, that line just it gets me every time, man, it does because of all the times that he's fault that of being vulcan and half human, and for that line is just man, it was so fitting right there.

30:12 Yeah. But then also on top of that, you know, you get the bad pipe playing which turns into a beautiful score piece by James Horner here, like it just blends in beautifully right there, and. A beautiful visual effects shot on top of it too. Yeah. Well, let's uh, let's twist the story a bit and look at look into another dimension with what if, where we discuss things that could have been with this film. So one of the interesting what ifs is more about casting than the direction of the film possibly, and then a kind of a what if that I don't think it was necessarily explored, both related to savoc So casting wise, apparently Kim Catrall was the first choice for the role of Savak, auditioned for it but wasn't available at the time, so she had come back to play Valaris in the Undiscovered Country.

31:06 I'm glad it went that way. I'm very glad we went that way too. Yeah. I think she does an amazing job. Is a Valaris. Yes, very interesting to see the parallels between those two characters. Yep, between these movies, especially since and correct me if I'm wrong. But they give Savac the con to take them out of space dock, and she says, take us out at some measure of impulse. I don't know if it was one quarter, one half or full impulse, and everybody seems cool with it. But when Valerius is on the bridge and the order is given to take us out of space dock at one quarter impulse, she says, regulations dictate only maneuvering thrusters when exiting space dock. And he's like, you heard me? And I was like, wait a second, well, when did this come up? Like either maneuvering thrusters or impulse, which is gonna be but the other the other aspect kind of the what if that I had seen that I thought was interesting was apparently there was more of a relationship with Peter Preston, Scotty's nephew and Savic. It didn't sound like it was necessarily a romantic relationship, but maybe a little bit more of like a mentor kind of thing. She was helping him with studies and he had a bit of a crush on her.

32:21 So we didn't need that true. They would have been too much true. But I think it's interesting that it adds a little bit more depth to her reaction to seeing his death on the bridge. Yeah, it sounds like maybe that's hinted at in the novelization, so and it sounds like the emotional reaction has maybe taken a little bit too far, but just got some interesting what ifs related to savic. It's kind of funny that you mentioned that because on the uh, the one scene where she goes into Oliver with Kirk and he's like, did you do something with your hair? And then you know, they're talking, she obviously wants to talk about the test again. And then when McCoy you know, pops up, the doors open and McCoy standing there and he goes, did you do something with her hair? I just found that amusing that it might have been that might have been part of it, and then they just decided not to go that route, you know.

33:09 Yeah, and then McCoy say, said that about rhymelin Al and I'm like, oh, McCoy, don't, don't make it creepy weird. Just let her go do her stuff. Right, didn't didn't. Wasn't this originally gonna be called the Undiscovered Country? Yes? And wasn't it funny one of its names? Yeah, so that I'm glad they didn't. I'm glad it became the Wrath of Con because you know, we know it is today in Undiscovered Country is Undiscovered Country. So it worked out well, that's what. One point we're saying. It was going to be the Vengeance of Con YEP. But when they knew that Jedi was going to be I think at that time it was Revenge of the Jedi before the rename it was YEP, so they didn't want to be too close. We came out the right way, we did.

33:49 Yeah, that's a great I agree, And that's what I wanted to touch on my what if some of those early drafts, because they're actually rather interesting. You know. When the motion picture was released, Gene Roddenberry wrote a sequel script. It's where the Enterprise crew travels back in time to a changed, corrupted timeline where the Klingons had used the Guardiana Forever to go back in time and prevent the assassination of John F. Kennedy. Now that's I'm trying to even imagine that as the second Star Trek film. No, of course paramount. You know, they blamed the failure of the first film on Gene Rodden very specifically, and they rejected the script, which I don't blame anything on him, but I agree with them with rejecting that script for it.

34:37 And of course he was taken off the project. And then they hired in a new producer, Harve Bennett, who had no knowledge of Star Trek whatsoever, and I think that's what they were looking for. And he came up with an idea for a script because there were two things that they wanted. They wanted it to be less boring, and they wanted it to cost lesson and i'll quote here or forty five million dollars. Bennett's idea was called War of the Generations, where Kirk investigates a rebellion on a distant world and discovers that his son is the leader of the rebels, Con is the mastermind behind the plot, and Kirk and son joined forces to defeat the Tyrant.

35:21 We're getting a little closer to Ratha con. But Bennett wasn't a script writer, so he hired in Jack B. Sowards to write which was called The Omega Syndrome, and that included the storyline with the theft of the Federation's alternate weapon, which was called the Omega System. But Bennett didn't like the idea of an ultimate weapon, so they changed it into a terraforming device, which became the Genesis Device. You know, slowly it became the script that you know we are familiar with. But Paramount at that time asked a writer, Samuel A. Peeples, to write a script as well. Now he wrote for the original series. He wrote Where No Man Was Going before the second pilot, but they rejected it because the script was too much like the original series.

36:12 All I know, if they had gone with the original gene Rod Murry idea, we would not have had Star Trek three. Probably not right for sure. But then, of course, you know, like you said you had mentioned earlier, they brought in Nicholas Mayer to direct it. He took those ideas, wrote his version of the script, and that's what became The Undiscovered Country and then it was, you know, the whole through the changing of the names. He did not like the change of the name, though he wanted it to stay on Discovered Country. It was the mark head of marketing at Paramount that changed it to Vengeance Acan and then of course they changed it to Rathic com It was just like you said, but he hated that, and I think that's why he called his second film that he directed, the Undiscovered Country.

36:56 It worked out, come on, it did well. There's something else that stood out to me in this this viewing of it, just knowing all the like the subsequent movies and kind of a plot thread that seems to carry through at least the first four movies, is it's time for Jim Kirk to move on. But he doesn't or can't. Yeah, he refuses, Yeah, you're. Right, well, four full movies. It's kind of like, yeah, it's interesting. Well what I like about those? Part two, Part three, Part four. Are all on top of one another. I mean, it's there's one. It's basically one big movie right there. It's a trilogy. It's a trilogy. Yeah, I can't. I can't see one without the other three. It's it's one long story.

37:40 Yeah, I agree, And did I not hear that at one point Ron Howard was even in line to direct this film. MS, It's possible, I mean he was. He was the thing at the time, you know, they up and coming director. I'm sure his name went across their ghosts at one point. Yeah, that'd be interesting to see, is what it is. Of course, we can't talk about a Star Trek film without going into an in depth discussion about its musical score. For Star Trek two, the production weren't able to afford the hefty fee that Academy Award winning composer Jerry Goldsmith required, so they were looking, as David said, someone much cheaper. Well, they found what they were looking for with the relatively new twenty eight year old composer named James Horner. This would be Horner's first major film score. He had scored a few low budget films like for Roger Corman. You mentioned a Battle Beyond the Stars and Humanoid from Humanoids from the Deep, as well as a handful of TV movies, but that was it, and he saw this as his chance for a big break and he was right. Now, David, you are the biggest James Horner fan that I know. So I'm gonna let you start with this.

38:52 Well, I mean, this is his first major, high profile film, and you know, he had a lot of pressure on him, so you know, I knew he had to do a good job. It's funny. I found a quote from him and he says, I'm sure that I was influenced by Goldsmith's large orchestral scores when I started out, and that was because the people who employed me wanted that kind of sound. I wasn't in a position to say, go to hell. Yeah, so you know, and he did not have a lot of background yet, as you said, Wayne, he had done just some you know, small independent things with Roger Corman and stuff like that. And you know I mentioned at the beginning of this is it sounds a lot like Battle Beyond the Stars. It really really does.

39:33 I mean guests on at points and I'm like, wow, can you not rip off yourself? Because you did? Now. I love Horner too, but it's a known fact that he does like to use sections of his score in other films. I mean, we can go over for hours talking about that. But so you know, I'm okay with that. I have no problem with that. I don't you know, there are differences, but there are similar. Yeah, And you know, he had some really good pieces in here, and that we talked about. You know, the bagpipe part is one of my favorites of this entire film, and there's a lot of good pieces in this film, but the whole bagpipe when it just transcends into his score is just so beautifully well done.

40:18 It is. And you know, he really does a good job of action sequences, which is why he got chos in for Aliens. He's fantastic with that stuff because he loves the anvil. And again I mentioned that before. You would hear that in a lot of his music, and he uses it in Titanic for Crymea. You know, there's a lot of anvil in his stuff. One of my favorite scores of his is Enemy at the Gates and he has like a I want to say, it's like an eighteen nineteen minute piece that is just absolutely stunning, and the endvil is in there. Again, so that's why I wanted to bring that up. But you know, just is one of his favorite A lot of composers have that where they have that one thing that they love to use over and over and you'll hear it in a lot of the pieces and horners no different.

41:02 All right, let's take a quick break and then we'll come back and see what Scott says about the musical score. Welcome back, and we are talking about the second Star Trek film started to the rap the con and specifically it's musical score. So Scott, what do you think. I gotta agree with Dave on the amazing grace transitioning from the bagpipes to it's goosebumps again. But so one of these sequences on a regular one where we get the terrifying use of score to just put you on the edge of your seat absolutely works to ratchet up the terror with not a lot going on. It's just what a mouse that appears before there's a dead body that hits you with that sting. It's just used to perfection.

41:55 But above that, I'd say it is the battle of the matar and nebula music in that is absolutely yea perfect ye. And I love the including the sequence that you talked about before where they're kind of lifting those grates to prepare the rail for the photon torpedoes. There's that militaristic kind of vibe to it and it just adds to the to the flow of the whole thing. It's it's classic. And if am I remembering correctly in the Nebula scene when the Enterprise I believe, was coming forward towards the screen, did he not use the same sound from the motion picture that Jerry Goldsmith. Used the blaster beam? Yes, the blaster yeah, yes he did, yep.

42:36 And the performer, Craig Huxley, he performed it for this film as well, and he I mean, it works, It really does work. You know. I love that instrument. Yeah, me too, you know you mentioned it. Great score, Scott are great to Q and I want to add my favorite Q two, which is Genesis Countdown. I love that that piece of music. It's it's just incredible. It's a very emotional build up to when the Genesis device, you know, activates and the Enterprise warps away. It's it's so it works so well. You know, for Corner's first major film, he really knocked it out of the park on this. I can see why everyone just suddenly started taking notice and he started getting more and more jobs at films because I can't I mean, I love Jerry Goldsmith, but I can't imagine anyone else but James Horner scoring this film.

43:34 A Yeah, I mean it's you know, unintended. It hits a lot of emotional chords, the the the non verbal drama in that sequence accentuated by the score. But I'm thinking specifically when Jim looks at his son David, almost like are we gonna make it? And David's like, not a chance, just shakes his head quietly, And it's the score that under that accentuates that emotional moment so much more. Yep. And this score is a lot of soundtrack fans' favorites too, because it has been in print ever since the beginning. You'll have no problem finding a copy of it.

44:19 You know. It was released back in July nineteen eighty two. Forty five minutes of the score delivered most of the main cues that you heard. But then it was re released on CD in nineteen ninety by g g NP Crescendo Records, and then we finally in two thousand and nine got the complete score from Film Score Monthly twenty three tracks. Yeah, I know, there was even though most of the major cues were there, there were still a lot of great little pieces, including that piece that you were talking about that took place in regular one, so it's available. And then it was re released again in twenty twenty one by Lolaland Records to CDs. This time they included the original album remastered as well as all the alternate and I'm used cues. This is still available. It's still out there.

45:06 You can go to Lululian Records website and get your copy right now, I got it, yep, All right. Now that we've discussed the film in depth, both on scene and behind the camera, let's talk about our personal favorite bits from Star Trek the rap then, I know we've discussed quite a few of them. Scott, what is your favorite scene from the film. I think one that I'm going to key up as a favorite because we've talked about so many. I want Judson Scott to get more credit as couns right hand man walking. Oh yeah, he gets overlooked. I agree. Yes, he has a great death scene because he's trying as much as he can to tell Ahab, you know, get over your own ego, stop chasing the whale. You're gonna you have everything you want. You don't need to do this, And then when he dies, he says, yours is superior, just like that's what he knows that he always needed to hear, and then dies with his eyes open to know that he got a lack of a screen credit seems like a crime in this I think he's an unsung highlight of the movie.

46:18 Yeah. That was his agent's fault, though, wasn't it. Yeah, yeah, I wanted to waive credit to negotiate better credit placement later. Silly mistake. But you know that doesn't mean that he wasn't training his damnedest. Like he gave a performance that stands out to somebody who you don't even know his name until he's dying. Yeah, I agree, David. What about you? So, I don't want to talk about the obvious, you know, with the films that are very the scenes that are very popular that we all. Know and love. So the one that I really attached to is Spock's speech on advising Kirk he should never have been have given up Captain.

46:59 I really, I really like that scene. You know, basically he goes in there to tell him, you know, I don't want to take over your ship or you know, anything like that, and then Spock really just you know, goes in and tells him you know, you know, my ego can't be bruised, you know. And I love all of. The things between those two because you really see their friendship at its height here, and they really care for one another, and you can tell Spock cares, you know, even though you know he has to keep those emotions in check. And we all know where it's leading obviously, you know, the death of Spock. But I just appreciated that because it keeps coming back that Kirk should never have given up that chair. Even McCoy talked about that. I believe in the motion picture he should never have given up that chair. And then this is you know, Spock is really you know, telling him about that as well. So that's one of my favorite scenes of this film.

47:51 Way well, you know, I'm the same way. I don't want to pick one of the obvious ones. But one of the little scenes that I absolutely love is when they're in the Genesis Cave and Kirk finally reveals how he managed to do the Kobayashi maru, how he managed to win that to to Savog and her surprise to it, and then you know, he takes a bite of the apple, flips his communicator open and says you know, I don't like to lose, and you know, finds out everything's been planned and she goes, you lied, and he goes, I exaggerated, And I love that scene. I mean that shows that shows Kirk. That's that's the Kirk that we remember. He had everything planned out, he knew exactly what to do.

48:35 I love that. Yeah, well you even mentioned the I exaggerated like and Spock playing along, yeah, like he can motion this still deliver comedic moment and still be like I'm clever enough to do this. Yep. All right, now is the time I usually talk about Easter eggs, but we're traveling back forty plus years to discuss this film. There really isn't too many Easter eggs, as you would call this, so I'm gonna call this film facts. There we go. When the film first appeared in theaters in June of nineteen eighty two, the opening credits of this movie simply listed Star Trek The Wrath of con You know, since the first film was titled Star Trek the Motion Picture, there was no Star Trek one on it. They didn't include the two that didn't come out until later showings in the video release and for all you weird Star Trek fans out there like me.

49:31 The opening scenes of Star Trek two take place on March twenty second, twenty two eighty five. I know this because Kirk mentions that it's his birthday, and in the Star Trek Enterprise episode in The Mere Darkly Part two, the computer screen establishes Kirk's birth to be on March twenty second, and that also happens to be William Shatner's birthday as well. This is the only Original series movie in which a Federation ship fires its phaser. I don't know if you guys realized that all the other films have them aspiring foot on torpedoes. You know, the next time we see the phasers being felt are being shot was The Enterprise d and Startrek Generations. Yep, all right.

50:15 This film earned fourteen million, three hundred and forty seven thousand at the US box office on its opening weekend. That was a record that wouldn't be broken until the release of Indiana Jones and The Temple of Doom. Of course, The Search for Spock made a lot more money than this, and the film ended up making about ninety two million, which is not bad for a twelve million dollar film. As with the motion picture, the movie was pre sold to the ABCTV network for a first time airing in the US. This entitled two airings for the film, which included deleted and alternate scenes, and it was also lightly censored for TV viewing. But this version, this extended version that was shown, unlike the motion pictures, never been released, not on VHS, DVD, Blu ray. There's no way to see it unless, of course, she recorded the original airings of them. This film was novelized by Bonda in McIntyre and adapted into a photos story by Richard and Noble, But unlike the motion picture and every other Star Trek film after it, it never got a comic book adaption.

51:24 But this was finally corrected in two thousand and nine. IDW wrote a three issue series to finally fill in that gap so that we have the complete series. And finally, there were very little in the way of tie in merchandise for this film. They kind of got burned with the motion picture, so no one was really willing to take any contracts for this. Like I said, there were no comic books, no action figures, toys, no food promotions. All we got was a release of you Master reels with some images of the film. Star Log Magazine released an official movie poster magazine, and that's about it. We did get a Con and Savig action figure years later from Playmates, but there was very little for us kids to bring home after watching this film. Doesn't need a lot of clay, right way, I did. I use a lot of clay for this, but hey, I have some good memories of playing with those ships. You know. That's awesome. Hey, you guys have anything else to add about Star Trek two that hasn't been said, because this film has been talked about a lot. It is Nope, all right, and that concludes our look back on the film Star Trek to the wrath of con We'd like to open a channel to our listeners and here just what you thought about this entry into the Star Trek universe, your stories of how you saw it first, and your opinions of the film today. Who knows, you might even get a mention on a future show. Of course. You can email us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com, find us online at a film by podcast dot com,

52:55 follow us on Facebook, Instagram, and x and if you're looking for exclusive contact or swag. You can join our Patreon and find out what hidden gems are within. Thank you David and Scott for joining me and the listeners for another fascinating discussion. Thanks Yeah pleasure. For those of you that missed it, you can check out our film by website and listen to the film at forty five podcast on our thoughts and feelings about Star Trek the Motion Picture, and then join us again soon when we churn our targeting sensors to Star Trek three the search for Spock. Hopefully we'll find him, and we hope that everyone will join us again for that discussion on the next episode of Phasers set to stun go on.

53:46 So I have one more question, but I don't know if we had in our outline, but what just curious if we don't want to put it in. If you're could have been anyone in this film, who would it be? And why oh so many characters go through so much this film. You know, I'm thinking, and I don't want to be him. I definitely don't want to be checkof because I don't want that thing in my ear. No