Phasers Set To Stun: Star Trek Nemesis

0:01 Space the Final Frontier. Join us for a bold conversation, our prime directive to recap our favorite Star Trek shows, both new and old, to engage and debate about all things Trek. Prepare to energize with Phasers Set to Stunt. Hello everyone, and welcome back to Phaser Set the Stun, where we continue to show our love for everything Star Trek in this ongoing series from a film by podcast which focuses on every quadrant of the expanding universe of Trek by covery television, animation, movies, directors, and much more.

0:56 Plotting the course, as always is your Core Trek Crew. I'm David Byrne, and then I'm Sky Hoffman and I'm Wayne whited Red Alert. This episode is going to be full of spoilers, so if you haven't seen this film, please go do so and then come back to join us. We will be waiting a generation's final journey begins. All right, gentlemen and our listeners, we have officially reached the end of the motion pictures for our next generation crew. This film is kind of mixed among the fans, and I believe even us here at Phaser Set, that's done on our feelings about it, but we are going to get into that here shortly. This film was the first Star Trek not to name the cast in the opening credits, which should have been my first Red Alert. We have a bearded Wriker again, another stunning score by Jerry Goldsmith and my second Red Alert outsider Stuart Baird directing. Those in charge wanted a film about Romulins, and thus Star Trek Nemesis was born. But before we deeply dive into this film, Wayne tell us what it's about.

1:57 After attending the wedding ceremony of William Reich and Deanna Troy, the Enterprise's trip to Betaz is delayed to investigate a mysterious energy reading on the planet Kolaris III, where they find the remnants of an android named B four, possibly a prototype for their own Commander data. Meanwhile, on the planet Romulus, the Romulan government is shaken when the leader of the slave race known as the Riemanns, a man called Chizon, takes control of the Romulin Senate and informs the Federation of his desire for peace. The Enterprise is ordered by Starfleet to open diplomatic talks with the new Creator, and Picard is shocked to learn that Chizon is in fact a younger clone of himself, a product of a Romulin plan to spy on the Federation long since abandoned.

2:46 Picard and the crew of the Enterprise are skeptical of Chizon's offer for PEAPs and discover that his true motives lead to an invasion of the Federation and the extermination of all life on the planet Earth. Thanks Wayne. All right, gentlemen, let's talk about this film, all right. As I said before, there are mixed reviews about this film. You know, by no means do I absolutely hate it. There are some good stuff in here, which I know we're going to get into. But what do you guys think? Oh, okay, I'll go first. I've got mixed feelings about this film. It's not a bad film. It's just it's just. Not what we would have preferred to have been our last voyage of the Enterprise. It's really dark, really dark film, not just in story, but in look as well. Very green, yeah, you know, and and in that fact kind of depressing.

3:40 But you know, the cast are phenomenal in it. You know, it's it's beautifully directed. I'm just not sure that the script is is up to motion picture quality for it. I think there are there are quite a few flaws. I know I'm a little divided on this one, but I just I'm not sure about the whole idea of Picard's clone. I don't think that really works, and I don't think it would have worked out. I just can't see him any way of it actually working on this film. Not to say Tom Hardy didn't do a good job. He just I'm not convinced. I never was convinced that he was a younger Cardy Scott.

4:24 What I think with this one, I feel like my first experience is pretty consistent with every subsequent experience I have with this, which is excited about what I think I'm going to see, but then ultimately kind of disappointed with the result. There are a lot of times it kind of feels like Phantom, Menace and Dayton. I'm not, you know, digging into the bashing here, but I mean I have that association with the idea that I remember it in a certain way, and then when I get into it, I can see very specific parts that I'd like to cut out, parts where I was I'd be curiou to see what kind of a movie it could have been without some of those elements, some of those things that maybe they would have fixed. But in terms of continuity, I find myself coming back to it every so often. It's not a favorite like Undiscovered Country or First Contact by any stretch, but it does help to fill in some gaps. It does help to answer some questions that are ultimately addressed in the Picard series in a couple of different ways.

5:24 It does. Yeah, But then beyond that, it's just like, yeah, now I remember, it's got these big problems. It's hard to hate this film because everyone in it, from the actors to the to the production you're doing their hardest to make this a great film. You can see it on the screen, but the script just in my opinion, just isn't up to it yet. Yeah, I agree, And this was not a box office success. As a matter of fact, it made the least amount of money of all of the Star Trek films, you know, Star Trek Find the Final Frontier even made more in that's a big ouch in my hand, could be a big ouch. Apparently, Patrick Stewart was not a fan of this film. A lot of them weren't, and sort of blame the failure on franchise fatigue as the reason for the poor box office results.

6:09 That's possible. I mean, look at how much Star Trek we were getting a bit well let's see, this would have come out a year after Voyager was that we had Enterprise. Yeah, I think we were all suffering from a little bit of Star Trek fatigue at the time. Yeah, I think so. And you know, in Frank's Curtis and Burton, they criticized Baird for his direction of this film. You know, apparently you know, he hated the Star Trek universe and knew nothing about it. Yeah, and he even thought that apparently LeVar Burton was an alien with human cybernetic eyes. Yeah, why would you get this guy that? Even Frank said, if they'd approached me, I would have directed this. Well, I understand his name is Laverne.

6:51 Oh yeah, for a while. And I'm just like, buddy, do a little bit of homework on this. And we don't know LeVar Burton outside of Star Trek. He's I mean, even Star Trek notwithstanding, LeVar Burden is a big name. So you get it right, maybe before you get on the set. Yeah, Well, you know, Stuart Bart, I can understand why they wanted him and why they hired him. He's no stranger to films. I mean, he's been around for a while and it has done a lot of stuff. You know, he directed Executive Decision and Us Marshall's. The only reason I know those films is because Jerry Golds miscord him. But you know, he was a long, long time film editor, especially for Richard Donners. So you know, that's a big name, and I can see them saying, hey, you know, wouldn't it be great. This guy's a rather large name. You know, you look at all the stuff he's done, wouldn't it be great for him to direct this? This our next Star Trek film. But on the flip side, as you said, he knows nothing.

7:50 Of Star Trek. And you know, time and time again we've it's shown that when you stick someone that has no idea what's going on, it usually doesn't work out. It sounds like a great idea, but it never turns out. I'm looking at you, Angley in the Hawk. Yeah. Oh yeah, shutter, shutter, yeah. I mean it just seems like if this is supposed to be somewhat of their kind of swan song for Next Generation, and obviously for Brent Spiner's character data, apparently of his own design, which kind of surprised me. He felt that he was aging out of characters, so he wanted to hang it up. I understand that. I mean, he was like fifth O three, wasn't he when they need this? Yeah, so I get it. I get But by the same token, if that's if this is going to be almost the finale for the franchise on the big screen, have somebody step in that knows and respects what this is going to be by at least knowing something about the universe, right, Yeah.

8:45 I agree, I agree, you know, and then hear the fact that Jonathan Fake said I would have loved to have directed this if they had approached me, and apparently they didn't. I kind of get it. You know, you want to bring maybe some fresh blood into this, but at least bring somebody who's got some kind of knowledge for crying out. Yeah. I think the reason why Paramount didn't approach him is because I think he was working on another film at the time when they first started production. Because this is out of all the Star Trek films of the Next Generation films, this is the one that had the longest gestation period, the longest time of pre production. It was almost two years. You know. The others barely got six months before they were done. So I think he was working on I think it was clock Stoppers, if I remember right, which I liked that film, That's all how I remember it.

9:29 I liked that film. I thought he did a fantastic job for it. But I think for. A better film, we could have waited. Another six months. I do agree we should have waited a little bit longer, but I have We have the original cast in their irrespective roles. All of them do an absolutely incredible job. Brent Spiner once again having two different roles in this film, and did a fantastic job with both of them, as he has done through the entire run of The Next Gen. Oh he's an expert at that. Yeah, did a fantastic job. The guest stars, obviously, we know Tom Hardy, who plays as Hinzon. Apparently, Patrick Stewart was not a fan of Tom Hardy. He basically says, I didn't have a single exciting scene to play in.

10:14 The actor who portrayed the movie's villain, Shenzon, was an odd, solitary young man from London. His name was Tom Hardy. Tom wouldn't engage with any of us on a social level, never said good morning, never said good night, and spent the hours he wasn't needed on set in his trailer with his girlfriend. He was by no means hostile. It was just challenging to establish any rapport with him. On the evening, Tom rapped his role. He characters who they left without ceremony or niceties, simply walking out of the door as it closed. I said quietly to Brent and Jonathan, and there it goes someone I think we shall never hear of again. Well he was wrong. Yeah, Tom Hardy is has turned in a pretty good actor.

10:56 Yes, yeah, but this is one of his earliest roles. It is the only thing I can think of it that he did before This was Band of Brothers, and that was barely. A part in the first place. Yeah, this was he thought this was gonna be his breakout role, Tom Hardy thought, and I thought he did. Okay, I really do. I mean again, it's the script's fault. It's not Tom Hardy. Right, But he got his name out for this. I mean the film did succeed in the fact of getting his name out there and you know, yeah, that's about it. Yeah, I know, I know Hardy doesn't mean I think he was struggling with some drugs and stuff at this time too, So obviously that pulled him out of the performance that he probably could have given us. But you can only do so much when you have a script that's right in front of you, that's written the way it's written, you know, yep.

11:40 Yeah, And I don't think one of the problems that I have with the movie is related to Tom Hardy at all. I think. The character is interesting, his portrayal of it. I think he does a great job. I think it's certainly a better choice than having Patrick Stewart play opposite himself, as shouldn't on I heard there's one consideration of that, and I think that's dodging a bullet that would have just been way too weird. But especially for you know, being pretty young in his career, and it had to be somewhat intimidating to be surrounded by this cast that's you know, become a family at this point, right. Yeah, And my I think one of the biggest problems I have with it is it's got none to do with Tom Hardy. I like him, he's a great actor to lots of great stuff. But what was the point of making him the Card's clone. I mean, it really has nothing to do with the actual storyline. It just seems like something that was thrown in just because they wanted.

12:42 To do it. And it you know, if they would have just made him like some like someone else, just a different character that had nothing to do with the Card being you know, his clone, I think it would have probably worked out better for the character, for the actor. It just makes no sense. Why would why why have that? It doesn't It doesn't make anything that I know. There's some dialogue later on the film where he's talking to Picard and he's saying that, like the Romulans were going to use him, I guess to replace him in the Federation. Yeah, but it was something that they had abandoned. Yeah, but they would do with the story. Yeah, right, it doesn't. It doesn't if he would have been just like, you know, a new a person who they had, like, let's say he was a Federation citizen that had been been captured and was in slavery with the Riemanns and and led their revolt up and you know, been able to take over and now he's in command of the Romulans, and you know that that works, that that would work, and it would be would not have changed the script one one bit at all, right, but it would have left out all that awkward whole stuff about being Picard's clone and him trying to, you know, look like the card. It just I think they were trying to make some sort of connection between him and the character of a card. But it doesn't come up very well. It doesn't come across like that.

13:58 And you could have you could have had him he kept the disease he had, because you know that played into that. You know, no, you didn't have to be a clone of Picard at all. I agree with you completely on that way. Well, And there was part of me in one viewing of this where I noticed that Picard's expression when he's getting that connection, like talking about the Shalloffe's syndrome, it almost looks like he's as surprised as if he was meeting his own son that he never knew he had. Yeah, and it seemed like, maybe, you know, could there have been another direction where, similar to Denise Crosby coming back as a descendant, he.

14:38 Had talked about her coming back. I kind of wish we would have sawd that I. Do too, right, So if there could have been a similar angle with Picard where it's kind of like, this is basically my son created in ways that I didn't choose, but essentially having him have that same kind of conflict, I feel like responsibility for this as much as I see this person as an inherent threat. So I think that that dichotomy could have worked better in other ways. Didn't they do that storyline in an episode like one of the last last episodes of the series. It sounds I think so. One of the aspects of shins on character Shinzun's character that I don't like at all and I think really doesn't service the plot at all, is his his approach toward Troy.

15:31 First. Yeah, now I'm not talking about the obvious problem yet, but the fact that when he first sees Troy, he's so enamored with her and tries to touch her hair, and it's been super creepy with her that entire Like, you know, I've been on the dark side of Remus for so long and I've never seen a human woman, so I'm enamored with this one and maybe there is some kind of plot that he had to mess with the crew on that level, but I feel like his his approach to Troy and absolutely the telepathic rape way to say it what it was, well, seems completely unnecessary.

16:15 Now that's my that in terms of his character is the part that I thought worked only because it not only did give a Troy more to do, but actually allowed them to attack back and and you know, bring her character more into the storyline to become essential to the the you know, defeat of him. I actually liked that part of the story. I mean, it is awkward to talk about, but it's still I thought it worked. So I think it's fair to say that having some kind of telepathic attack could have been valid right to give her that opportunity to use that against them. I don't think sexual aspect of it is necessary.

17:03 Well, yeah, there definitely I agree with you that that part. Yeah, but one thing we can agree on is Ron Perlman as the Viceroy was amazing because Ron Perlman is amazing and everything that oh goes he is and then we got to meet him and dude was awesome. So you know, respect out there for mister Peerlman I would love to have seen him some more in Star Trek, but it didn't happen. I was happy to see his name attached to Star Trek. I've loved him ever since the eighties. Oh yeah, it was when I heard he was going to be involved in this film. I was like, oh, yeah, finally, that's great. Yeah, yeah, absolutely, And Wayne, you should have been happy. We had a nice voyager surprise with Kate maulgrew As anyway in this. Yes, and I wish we had gotten more like they had originally planned. But it was nice to see her and see that she was safe and okay after their return.

17:49 Yea, absolutely. Well, let's let's talk more about this film, guys. Some things that do work, some things that don't work. I know we kind of mentioned this before, but the problem we have why if a Wesley crusher at the wedding? It is a good question, well in what sense? Yeah? Well he was he left to fly off with the Traveler and be some special god being thing, and then now he is there, he is setting and I think what the problem is he's set in a Starfleet uniform. Yes, he why quit Starfleet? He gave it all up, and now there he is. We're missing something of the story.

18:31 Right, I mean to that end, Yes, Wesley absolutely should be there at the recertory wedding, but it's also confusing to your he's back to Starfley uniform, Like could he did not have been in a tux? Well, now I know they didn't fix this At a later time there was there was a book where he appears at the wedding naked, and the card rather because they thought that, you know, being a basis in wedding, that's what they need, what he needed to and like, no, no, we're not to that part yet. Here put this uniform on real quick, and that's why he's wearing a uniform. I guess. Yeah, we got to see Guyn and again she came back for just a tiny little role right there.

19:12 I do love the continued joke though about the naked wedding, especially with Wharf. You know, he's gonna have to do it no matter what. And then the card says I'll be in the gym. Yeah. I was very glad to see them finally married, and that seems like a good idea to have them. At the same time, they're kind of passing the baton for him. To move to the Titan exactly. I think the wedding plays really well, and especially the Irving Berlin joke. I think Brent Spodden does a great job with Blue Skies and obviously so much differently at the end of the card Season one. I won't spoil that for Jeff, but damn did that hit hard. Yeah, I will say one of the things they really left there's there was some comedy in here, but not as much as I'm used to with these films. If you guys notice that a lot of comedy was missed, mostly at the beginning of the film. Yeah, yes, But the one line that I just bust out laughing every time is when picards leaving is you have the bridge, mister Troy.

20:08 Yeah, oh yeah. I loved it. All right, Well, I'll tell you what. Let's take a little break, we'll come back. We will continue to talk about this film, all right, everybody, welcome back, where Wayne Scott and I continue to talk about Star Trek Nemesis. Let's break this down a little bit further, guys, introduction to Be four. One of the things that I felt was really odd, it just thought out of place, was that I don't know what you would call that an suv whatever they were driving. Oh yeah, that whole. Sequence just felt weird to me. Am I wrong, The dune buggy, the argo, Yeah, that seemed to be like once I found out about Stuart Baird not having a core understanding of Star Treker, was like, oh, maybe that's why they had a dune buggy scene. Just to have a dune buggy scene, right, there is nothing that seemed to be prohibiting the the shuttle from going in different spots.

21:07 Yeah, I mean why would they have a dune buggy? Why would they have something on wheels? I mean, we never seen anything like that before. They everything flies around, they have transporters. What would be the use of having a dune buggy like that. I don't know. That's why that whole sequence fell on a place for this movie. It's it's yeah, it felt like it it should have been in a different film, something else, not Star Trek. I agree. It also felt like b Foor's story arc is oddly out of character for the crew. So there they pick up this signal from a distant planet, and I'm not sure why there's a positronic signal coming from a severed arm.

21:49 I would expect it all be coming from the but okay, yeah, so they find these parts that are spread out. They didn't even know that this existed, like doctor didn't even mention that before was even a thing, And all of a sudden it seems like it's a trap because everybody starts shooting in their own dude buggies because they all apparently missed Shuttle day. But as soon as they get him, they assemble him completely, and very soon after download all of Data's memories into B four. Now, aside from the fact that the last time they found an abandoned android brother he turned out to be you know, bloodthirsty maniac. Yep, wouldn't it kind of seem like, hm, this is weird.

22:40 We didn't know this android existed, yet this group laid this trap for us. Maybe we should give it some time before we plug it in and give him all the keys. That would make sense. That leads me to two of my problems with this film. And obviously we've got more that we've already discussed. But one problem, Oh my god, how many times has Data caused problems with this in the crew? How many times have you said. That, yes, I I said that, and here we go again. Stop it, Okay, stop it. You understand turning this droid on is not going to cause any issues. Oh okay, let's just do this. No no, no no. The second problem I have I feel like it's a cop out of killing data because you know, he downloaded everything to before, so it is right then when that happened, you knew what was coming, and when he dies it kind of takes away from his death. I mean I still felt sad.

23:36 I was still with the crew, you know, when they were feeling those emotions. But in the back of my head, I'm like, well, who cares because Before is now data right here. Maybe you clear this up with me. WHOA what was the point of the B four storyline other than that? I mean, who put before on that plan? It was that part of Shinzon's plan. Was he involved in that? Well? What what what? Why? What? What? What does that have to do with his plan? I don't understand. I think it was to get some of the ships like shields and all that kind of information downloaded so he could give it to them, to. Give easier way to do that.

24:17 I would agree. It just seems so convoluted. Yeah, yeah, and the entire sequence where before you know, his sleeper cell mode kind of activates and he starts getting onto the computer. We've seen a lot of treatments of data scanning through things very quickly, I think, to the great effect on the TV series. I'm not sure why they went with the uh upn discount bin uh discount matrix effects that they had on the computer screen where it has all these like following numbers and three D like, it was such a weird sequence to use, and as soon as they were saying like, that's odd, somebody is accessing things that they're not supposed to. Your first guess should be before we've been here with lower like it's the only person on take a guess, it was Colonel Mustard in the living room to fight.

25:15 He's the only one. Here, right. It just blows my mind that, come on, guys, you're smarter than this going on, but it still happens. You know. One of the things that I feel this film could have done so much better. This was written by John Logan, who obviously had a handy with Gladiator and had a lot of political background with writing scripts for political stuff. They could have really dived more into the romulent stuff politically than they did. I know they kind of touched on it a little bit, but I feel like if we had gotten more of that kind of like we got with und Discovered Country, you know, I think we would have had a better film. But again, this goes back to what you're talking about, Wayne, It was not written really well.

26:01 Now, and you're right, I mean, it's finally we get the Romulans, and everybody's been wanting the Romulans. They wanted the Romulans, and really do we really get much of the Romulins. We had a lot of the Riemans, but it's a lot of shiz on. But you know, the Senate is wiped out right at the beginning before they even open credits, and it's really not a Romulan film in my opinion. Yeah, I don't. I don't think it is either at all. It's not. And another problem, and there there's. A look in there where they talk about the fact that you know, you know, everybody thinks that a coup atta is a big thing here on Rondulus. We call it Wednesday. Right.

26:42 If it happens that often, it seems like wouldn't make sense. There would be some redundancies in place. If somebody did crispy the whole Senate that it's not, well, what do we do with the planet now, right? It seems like there could have been some other elements where they had the riemons maybe occupying the planet a little bit more, or somehow you know, orchestrating a lot of things. Well, that would make more sense. It also seemed a little odd that in the escape from the shuttle bay with the card and data, stealing the shuttle and flying through the hallway a cool idea seemed a bit implausible, but a cool idea. But before they fly out, I see like a whole fleet of those whatever they call them, attack shorts scorpions. They didn't use those once in the entire battle sequence. It seems like, if you have this much of an army, send out your tie fighters to you know, to at least shake things up a little bit.

27:39 I don't know budget budget, Scott budget, I guess, yeah. Well, they don't tease us with things like that. Don't show us that if you're not going to actually use them exactly. So okay, now we have this great crew on the Enterprise. They have done such wonderful things over the years, so not only do you have the problem of let's turn on this this robot that we have no idea about is android, who's probably gonna call the problems? But are we just throwing starfleet procedure out the window? So when they go to stings on ship Riker and picardgo and data okay, never mind, but throw everything out of the window. Right, Hey, well never learn. Doctor Crusher, you've got this. Yeah, really that happened, and it did, okay.

28:24 Whatever it did seem like there were a few aspects where they were not quite prepared for what they were supposed to do. So going back way back to uh Janeaway talking through you know, what they're going to do, and obviously they've been requested specifically, but they don't see it as suspicious enough to have the fleet be a little bit closer to them or you know, like. Well that's that's in a deleted scene they are it was, if not an elite scene, it was a scene. That they cut from their film and never never shot that. Yeah, there was talk about that, okay, but because of the fact that you know, the Federation Council was you know, the Romuels are saying peace piece piece that they were kind of all they were thinking of is piece and let common sense fly out the window.

29:14 Okay, a lot of that in this movie, apparently, Yeah, I seem to be a theme. There's there's one. There's a few scenes that I actually love. So there's the same scene similar to what we got in First Contact, where like they're getting ready to go to war and they're handing out all the rifles. I love that shot. I do. It was very similar to their first contract. But right there readable piece from Jerry Goldsmith myth right there that kicked in and just went over that kind of montage of getting ready for war. I love that piece. There's two pieces in this film. The whole score was fantastic. It is, and I know we're gonna get to the score here a little bit, but that was one of them. The other one we'll get to and that I'll mention what we'll get to when we.

29:55 Talk about the score. But let's talk about this big, huge battle that we get. I thought the battle was pretty neat, I really did. I mean it could have been as you as you mentioned the scorpions, we could have probably have seen those with everything that was going on. It was kind of neat to see the romulants show up to help out the Enterprise. I thought that was some really cool scenes. One of the things that scenes I thought was amazing was when the Enterprise rams hit shins on ship and then they get stuck and then Shinzan starts backing away and just rips them apart. Man, that whole sequence I thought was phenomenally well that it is one of the best parts. Yeah. Yeah, there was part of me that kind of wondered could they have used the separatable saucer section if that's still a thing with this.

30:38 Enterprise it or not it was, but I don't know. But after ramming into it, it seems like you could have a tactical advantage behind. You know, all right, we're gonna park the saucer section in your nose and then take the rest of it a round to the back and finish it off. Right. So let me get this straight. How many times in a movie do we have to see the car has to shut down a massive weapon at the end. I don't get it. Yeah, I mean you you hit. Another thing that that bothers me about this film is it's similarity to it the.

31:18 End of Insurrection. Yeah, you know, the whole tone of the film, the the the fights, Yeah, and then the whole you know, massive weapon you know. Yeah, yeah, I thought the same thing. It's too close to insurrection. We need something different. It is, and it's just like, come on, come on with some original police. I mean, they kind of did the generations to the same thing. It's like, come on. But I digress. I do kind of wish that the Jordi had made to prototype emergency transports because clearly so maybe I'm a spare. I don't know, why does he have one? Why does he have one? Right the way that they kind of present that too, it's kind of like, okay, we're talking about all these things. Oh, by the way, I've got this thing, and in case we need to get out, looks at the camera so you know, if that comes up and then breaks the back of his arm.

32:09 Yeah. I did like the sequence of Data getting autitions on ship though. I thought that was cool. Yes, yes, runs down the hallway and then leaps. I thought that was cool, great effect. And of course yeah again you get the cop out with them killing Data, which again I feel for the emotions of the crew. I thought when it blew up and then like Troy and Ryker were looking at this scroll. There's no scream there anymore, but they're looking out, which that was pretty cool too. By the way, they didn't realize Picard was standing behind them, so you know when they turn and look. I thought that the sequence was really good, and I felt for them that Data had killed himself and sacrificed himself, but still we happy before. We're fine, everybody, We're cool.

32:50 We're cool, Yeah, and I thought they were. I feel like they were intentionally trying to kind of play with our emotions with the It seemed like when the movie was being set up, it was set up as the last voyage for the. Next Generation crew. Yeah, so then it seems like, all right, I'm expecting that somebody's going to die. And when Riker was fighting Viceroy in the fight sequence that was way over using slow motion, yes nineties slow motion, that they were kind of set up that Riker was going to be the one that dies, and I'm glad that's not the way that they went. Oh, it would be a horrible thing to set up this Everything's fantastic Blue skies and then he dies, Like, I'm glad they didn't put them through that.

33:34 This This is probably finally, My biggest problem with this film and why even twenty some years later, I still don't like this film as much as I should, is that it is the last Next Generation film that we got and it's it's just it's just depressing. It is know, you want these characters, We follow these characters for so long. We love these characters, and you know, we want them to have a great ending, and this was not it. This wasn't it. You know, we were left with a really bad taste. In our mouth at the end of this film, you know, with even Data's death, I mean, yeah, it sounded like a great idea, but it's not where we want to leave the saga right at And you know, I'm glad that I'm glad that we didn't have to finally, I'm glad that the characters did finally get there happily ever after, because that's what we wanted. But this, this wasn't the good.

34:36 This wasn't a good ending to what we have followed for it was at this point it in fifteen years, but invested so much of our time and love and you know, following. And then this is. It, and. It's just no that's all I can say. Really, I think that's why we kind of got on our vindication when we got season three of The Card. I mean, that's the fifth film, that is that's the film that we wanted and got this instead. Yes, so at least we got that out of it. But you're right. I mean, in many years we had to wait for that was ridiculous.

35:16 I feel great now after seeing that, I feel great. I feel satisfied. And that's the problem. I did not feel satisfied after Nemesis. I like, we got to have more. You can't just leave it like this, right, you know, I'm satisfied. If we never see these characters again, I'm happy because they got the ending that they deserved well. And I think they got kind of double duty too, with Piguard season one and Pickard season three helping to round that out. Yeah. I agree, absolutely, And you know we are talking a lot about The Card too, But and so I guess that makes really you know, that's that's a great series. Everybody should watch it, but you really to understand a lot, and you really do need to watch Nemesis.

35:58 You know, we we. Were trashing the film, but you know we're not saying we're saying it's not the greatest film, but you really do need to watch it. It is an important part to understand anything about that series. Is it's part of the story. I mean, just like in the TV series, there are episodes we don't like, but we know they're there and you should watch them because they're part of the series. So I get it. You're absolutely right, Wayne, Yeah. And this film. There are parts of this film that are great. The cast, the main characters are all fantastic. I mean, we love watching them and they're great in this The visual effects are outstanding. I think it was wonderfully directed. It's beautifully designed. There are a lot of good points to look at. At the score. Oh gosh, the score. Yeah yeah, we'll. Get to that. We'll get all right, gentlemen, Let's talk a little bit about behind the scenes. One of the things I found fascinating was apparently the farewell scene in Picard's ready room near the end had to be reshot because apparently Patrick Stewart unintentionally started crying. Oh wow, yeah, because I mean they pretty much knew that's probably gonna be it for them too, you know, no more, I mean they didn't know if this was gonna be a success or not, but the one they were filming it.

37:03 But I think if sure. That was on the set that vibe, Yeah, I. Think it was. But I also think that if this was a success, they were they were expecting a last, final fifth film. To anything, you guys, anything behind the scene. Yeah, well, you know, I got They did ask Jerry Ryan to appear. In the film. You know, she was going to appear at Riker's and Troy's wedding and she I remember one thing I got a mentioned stairby he hears we talk about deleted scenes and early things. About six months before this film was released, the script was leaked on the internet and that's when I first I read it. I mean, I who could who could resist? And there it. Wasn't the final shooting script. It was like two drafts back.

37:45 So there were a lot of stuff in there that that they had cut and changed. And I remember reading the scenes with Jerry Ryan, you know, and she was only appearing in the wedding scenes. And I have to agree for her reasons for refusing. To take it. You know, she just didn't feel that she didn't understand why seven and. Nine would be at the wedding. She wouldn't. I mean, yeah, she wouldn't. I mean she never met these characters at that point. You know, she had never met any of these characters, so why would she appear? And and that's one of her main reasons why she didn't appare. And I agree with that. I thought it was rather odd too. Wasn't there even talk that Marine Turtis wasn't going to sign on for this movie? Yeah, I'm going to replace her with Jerry Ryan.

38:28 I think there was there was brief talk right at the beginning when they were writing this they weren't sure if everybody was coming back. Yeah, and thankfully, I guess I think Jerry Ryan was busy with Boston Public at this time. Yeah, yeah, thankfully. That got in the way and it didn't work out. I don't think she would have done it anyway because those very reasons. It would have been nice to year, but it wouldn't have made any sense, like a lot of things in this film. But yeah, there was no reason to have her character in there. Now. Kay Mulgrew's appearance we really liked, oh absolutely, you know. There that was another thing that was in that script. You know, there were She was originally to appear in two more scenes off the screen. You know, there was a scene with between her and the Federation Council what I mentioned a little bit about that, and then there was another scene after there where she's talking to the card This was about halfway through the film, right after Picard and she's on met for the first time. She's discussing that, you know, telling him the results and that needs to go ahead with the negotiations. But then she kind of puts it off onto what do they call that one when nobody else can listen in she goes, you know, captain to captain, be careful, that's what she says.

39:38 And I love that scene. It's a pity that they never filmed that. Okay, I think it's a good call that they didn't include seven or nine in here, because yeah, I would have felt wedged in. I think it's a shame that it sounds like one of the reasons that Marina might have not come back is because they were offering her such a low salary for it. They were not willing to pay her a lot for it, and considering what her character has to go through, well, you know, it's too light. The fact that she's a highly. Important character, absolutely is. This would be a completely different movie if we didn't have the Riker troy Ye wedding. And she's a lot more than that as a character as an actress, like respect that and make sure that she's in this, especially if it's going to be the swell Song, You've got to have.

40:27 Her there right now. And she hardly had anything to do with interaction, and there's really didn't have much, So I could think I could see her saying, you know, if you're not going to give me anything to do, why should I be there? And I think that, you know, maybe that's what happened. Maybe that's why she does have more to do in this film has some rather important scenes. I don't know. I don't know if that's the case, but it could lead to that. The only other behind the scenes thing I was going to mention is that I think it's appropriate that Brent Spiner was one of the writers on this, knowing that it's Data's last hurrah on the movie, it seems appropriate that he would have a hand in the future.

41:10 So I was in that so talking about what ifs, and then we've kind of already mentioned some of these when you've mentioned some of the elitest scenes and something like that. Apparently there was supposed to be a follow up film for this which would involve d Spasline and Star Trek Voyager crews and Riiker with his USF Titan, but apparently all those got scrapped because of this film did so bad at the box office. What a shame. I think that would be really neat to see that. Yeah, they were talking about that for a while, and this is one of the reasons why most of this cast felt that this was their last time. They didn't mean it was the last Star Trek film, but it could have been their last time altogether, because Paramount and the producers were talking about doing films that combined all the other series and brought all the other characters bits of them here and there, And so I mean, yeah.

42:01 I think I think that's why we got the Star Trek two thousand and nine reboot, isn't it. They just think they like, let's just reboot it all. Well, between this film and Enterprise was just not doing very well. A great series but just just wasn't do anything. And I think a lot of it has got to do with that fatigue. It led to the end of the franchise, or this part of the franchise. They I think the only logical thing they could have done was reboot it. Yeah, I agree, any any other what if? I just want to mention that, you know, the first cut of this film was really long. They cut nearly fifteen minutes of foot each out of this film to get it, Yeah, to get it under two hours. And there are a ton of deleted scenes. I talked about the ones that they didn't shoot. There are a ton of ones that they did shoot, and some of them are great stuff. Some of it I can understand they cut.

42:52 If you want to watch any of them, they're all on the. DVD in Blu ray. I mean, you got Wesley gets scenes with Wes the Crusher where he actually speaks lines because he never did in the actual film. There's some great scenes with between Picard and Troy, more scenes with Wharf and then the extended final scenes with Riker leaving and Bokard getting a new committee chair installed on the on the enterprise with seatbelts by the way. Yeah, finally, I know. Apparently in an early draft, Ashley Judd was supposed to come back, but they better not to do that. That would have been kind of neat, wouldn't it.

43:36 Yeah, I mean it would have been neat. I would like to have seen some of the characters we got. Yeah, such a great you know, secondary cast of the next generation. We always wonder whatever happened to him. Do you know Brian Singers got a guest appearance in this film? That's right. Yeah, some of the crew remembers that takes a worse place at the tactical console. I think that's right. Yeah, yeah, because really was. Packs were obviously, you know, with X Men and stuff like that. So I guess that's why he got of that. So yeah, all right, well let's take another break. We'll come back. We're gonna do Wayne's favorite part, talk about the score. All right, everybody, welcome back. Before we continue our discussion with star Diagnosis with Wayne and Scott. Guys, we all know that we're big fans of movie scores and Wayne, we all know that we love Jerry Goldsmith.

44:28 Oh yeah, so let's talk about the score of this film. What do you got, Wayne? Well, you know this score. When I first heard it, which was about a week before the release, I believed it was around the time of the release of the film, I wasn't really too sure about it, you know, I remember listening to it and thinking how different it was from his work on Insurrection. Very harsh, menacing, kind of depressing, just like the film in points. You know, it's he's got a very very short, very raw, pounding opening theme because there's no opening credits for him to write anything for. But then there was a.

45:08 Lot of you know, it just it was just very different, and you know, I didn't have all those zeice beautiful themes that he had written for the last two films. But then, you know, I had first thought that maybe, just like us, Goldsmith didn't think too much of the film. It just wasn't very inspired. I mean, it's happened before on some of his other films. But then, you know, the film the score has grown on me, it really has, and after I started thinking about it, you know, to really appreciate this, this score, you you have to think about exactly where Jerry Goldsmith was at this time of his life. Yep. You know, this was this was late two thousand and two, and I think he composed it during the summer of two thousand and two. You know, he had been battling colon cancer for quite a few years at this point now, and it made him cancel a lot of his assignment.

46:00 You know, he was doing five to six films a year, dropped down to one or two starting with the year two thousand. You know, his cancer went into remission, but at this point it was starting to return, and I really think, you know, he was beginning to feel. The effects of it. You know, I've listened to his score many times over the last twenty years, and I've really got a new appreciation to the score because there's there are some incredible pieces here. I mean, we talked to a few of them. There are some beautiful pieces, and I think the original release does not do this score justice. You know. There there's a couple of cues that I absolutely love. You know, the scene on Kolaris three with the Dune Buggies.

46:42 While I don't like the scene, I love the music. It's that's that's pure Jerry Goldsmith action music, very full orchestra, you know, and everything. And then there's the scene with between the card and chiz On when they're just they're talking about you know, being clones or him being a clone, and everything beautiful, sweet Obo playing underneath with a very sinister by tone. Just the whole score is just absolutely phenomenal. You know, this ended up being the third of the last score that Jerry Goldsmith ever composed before his death in July two thousand and four.

47:27 You know, he. Did the film called Timeline after this, which his music was never used. It ended up having to be dropped from the film, and then he did one more film, Joe Dante's Looney Tunes Back in Action, and you know, at that point he wasn't even able to finish that score and had John Debney come in and conduct it and finish it for him. So, you know, thinking of that and where he was and this was a very dark time, he knew what was coming. He did that. I think he brought a lot of that emotion, that anger and that fear and into his score on this film. And it's just absolutely incredible. It is. You know, I mentioned one of the pieces that I loved. The other piece. It's very short, but man, I tell you, every time I hear it, I just get goosebumps. It's the small little piece as Piccarda's leaving before at the end, he does that look back, he walks out in the hallway. That piece right there, I tell you, man, it gets me every damn time. Beautiful piece right there. But the whole score is fantastic, Wayne, I couldn't have said it better than you. So many different pieces about this film that you know, the music is just top notch. First Contact is always going to be my favorite. But and you know, I'm not a huge fan of this movie, but the music it Yeah, Jerry Goldsman, I still feel like knocked it out of the park.

48:45 Yea, yeah, for sure. And I think I can look up the soundtrack to see if it's on it. But apparently Brent Speiner recorded the entire song of Blue Skies and which I think there are some notes of that Jerry Goldsmith incorporated into the score that would be a nice little you know, cherry on the top. Yeah, just to include that. It is included. It is included because you know it was. The score was released back when the film came out, had fourteen tracks, about forty eight minutes of music, which is pretty long US for a Star Trek soundtrack, but they did in twenty fourteen they did release a two disc complete score for this. Finally, it was very saraband that released it. Thirty two tracks, nine ulternate tracks, and then the four source cues like you were talking about with the Blue Skies. Unfortunately, this is the only Star Trek's film score that is not currently available to purchase.

49:47 It's been out of print for quite a few years, but you can still find it. You can still find on Amazon and in Toronto those It's just not readily a vail. You have to look for a little bit and a little pricey. I'm here too, not too bad right now, but if you wait another or two it might be probably all right. Well, let's move on to talk about the Easter eggs, Wayne, I know you've got some. You'd be surprised a little alike was able to find. There are some a bit of retroactive continuity. The name of the Romulin ship Valdor. It was later reused in the name of Romulin Senator and Admiral in the Star Trek Enterprise, so you know, even though it was shown backwards, we finally found out where that ship got its name.

50:31 You know. And this for this film. Normally the producers would reuse and redress the old sets. Like with the other films, they use sets from d Space nine and Voyager. But by the time this was a movie was being filmed, all the Voyager sets had been taken down and they were forced to construct everything from scratch for this film, so we got all new sets. The sick bay, the crew quarters were all brand new sets for this film. The only that they re used was the bridge of the Romulan Valdor was a redress the Enterprise E set. They just shot it very carefully so that you couldn't tell the difference, of course. But on the other hand, many of these sets and costumes that they would create would be used later for Star Trek Enterprise. The Riemann costumes were reused as the Zendi costumes during the third season of that show, and many of the computers and set pieces would be seen throughout the final two seasons of that show.

51:34 Well. The fast food restaurant Del Taco featured a promotional tie in for this film. You know, they had four fun cups decorated with Star Trek characters. They had a contest and Star Trek themed gifts certificates. They were action figures by Art Asylum, not too many of them, but a few trading cards and even TV Guy got into it. And released four special lenticular covers promoting the film around the time of its release. But that was about it when it came to promotional stuff. With the film. Nice also to in this it This became the first Star Trek film not to debate debut in the number one.

52:19 Spot at the box office. This film was beaten by Made in Manhattan, Oh jeez, by just two hundred thousand dollars. But the problem was is unfortunately it lost Star Trek Nemesis lost seventy five percent of its audience the following week because of the release of Lord of the Rings the Two Towers. Well that makes nothing to talk to that, yeah, but which also makes it means it was the worst revenue drop of any major studio film in box office history. Ouch, they got that going for him out. Not a record you really want to make though, No it's not. You know. One of the things I found very interesting. I think we kind of mentioned this earlier about B four. Apparently it is consistent with the episode Inheritance because it is said doctor Soon had built three prototypes before lower and data okay, staying cool, Okay, So that does come into play a little bit. And apparently.

53:20 Say how many of these robots did he build? I mean, we got we got a lot of them. Yeah, we do, we do. Apparently he had quite a pingent for losing them. Yeah, like he had no idea where It wasn't very good at that Laura was in cold storage. But I guess he just you know, these other prototypes are bouncing around on some kind of planet somewhere, hopefully in one piece, but a little odd. So here's here's something fascinating that I found too. This film references every live action Star Trek series that had come before and after Star Trek. The next ration, at this time, Commander Riker orders the defensive maneuver Kirk Epsilon after Captain Kirk from Star Trek. One of the ships waiting for the Enterprise is the USS Archer, named after Captain Archer of the Enterprise. Oh yeah, Admiral Jane Way, obviously making her cameo from Star Trek. Voyager Wharf obviously returns from Deep Space nine. In deleted scene, he claims he was not cut out for ambassador life. So everything is represented in this movie. Isn't that pretty cool? Oh?

54:27 Yeah, I'm interested to get everything in there, didn't they? They did that's pretty cool. Yeah, and let's not forget the wine that the crew is drinking there at the end. You know where that was from, Wayne, That's right, Yeah, Chatau Piccard. Which is kind of interesting because then in the Picard season it seems like they kind of poke fun at Chateau p Card not being that good of a wine. It's apparently it is, because it's everywhere exactly. All right, Well, let's talk about some of our favorite moments. Guys, Scott, what about you? We've already talked about a lot of them. I think Data posing is before was a clever move. He had kind of an interesting affect to his voice, that kind of echo effect, kind of underscoring it. At the same time, it's kind of like they couldn't like they fell for that.

55:21 They didn't spend any time with before. I couldn't tell the specks or whatever. I think the action was handled pretty well, like the direction of the action sequences. To hold up. But then again, it's just kind of like, you know, those those flaws keep coming back, and you know, it's one of the things that I remember about this movie being interesting, kind of keeping my attention. But then there's those weird nuggets. What about For me? As much as I love this epic battle that's done extremely well, it's the final moment between Captain Picard the Commander Ricker. You know, just watching that scene made here because knowing the history of these two characters and seeing them standing there possibly for the last time, you know, as Riker, you know, finally gets what he deserves his own command. I mean, I know it was almost given him a few times in some of the episodes, and he passed it up. But that moment between these two characters that we have fallen in love with, you know, you knew at this point this is probably going to be the it for them, and just seeing that happen was my favorite moment of this entire film, Wayne, what about you?

56:29 I think I've got two moments, so I've touched on one, and that is I like the fact that they actually got Troy involved in the actual plot of the story. You know, you know, her character and Doctor Crusher tended to get shoved into the background a lot, especially in the last film, you know, to make room for the regular you know, a card data Riker, but here she's actually given something that makes a difference in defeating the villain and I like that. You know, it shows that she's just not a their face on the bridge. You know, she's not just the counselor you know, she's a strong, important part of the Enterprise crew. We all knew that, you know, we finally get to see a little bit of it here. And another scene that I really like is right after the Card and hies on meat and he gives her gives him the blade with the blood on it. Uh, there's a there's a lovely scene between the Card and Doctor Crusher and they're talking about it this this. I like this because this kind of revokes that that feeling you got during season seven of the Next Generation. You know, whether the two of them would always get together for like breakfast or whatever, and you know they just have their little chats and things, and this reminded me a lot of that. It's it's a lovely scene with just the two of them, something we didn't another, We didn't see a bit that we didn't get much of in any of the films. It really makes me feel, you know, these two characters have this this connection, and of course we do find out.

57:58 Later they'd have a big connection. Yeah, they do. I just love that scene. I mean, there are two characters that I've always loved on the show, and seeing them having the sentiment scene in this film. Yeah, you know made me smile. Good choices. I like those. Yeah, all right, So this is one of my favorite questions. If you could be anyone in this film, who would it be and why? So for me, it would probably be Data for the brief moments where he is able to connect with another brother that wasn't trying to murder him this time. You know, there's there's moments of let's assume the rest of the movie didn't happen and this is just an episode. I think he would have had a lot of interesting exploration of early life with Doctor seem not knowing whether or not Before was the most recent prototype or the first. Yeah, it seems like there could have been some history connection there, and also just getting a chance to know maybe make an emotional connection with Before. I got the sense that Before has an emotion ship just because of the way he acts, even though his positronic brain wasn't as developed.

59:15 So with Data having access to the emotionship and having access to a brother that's not homicidal but has emotions, would have been some nice connection moments. I imagine, Wayne, what about. You, I'm going to have to say Riker because out of all the characters, I think he's the one that has the most promising and exciting future to. Come out of this film. You know, he starts the film off with getting married finally to his true love. I mean, we we all knew from day one encounter at farpoint that they were meant for each other, and he finally gets that. You know, He's got some great scenes in this film, and some credible action scenes. He gets to punch some reemans, you know, and and then he leaves finally on his with his own command with the type and you know, something that he deserved many many years before, and now he's finally getting it. You know, he's going off on his own ship to explore unknown parts of the galaxy. So yeah, I want to be him.

1:00:19 That sounds good. Yeah for me. It's Befo, a character who doesn't know much about any about anything until he's given all of Data's memories. But the most important piece here, he gets to be turned off so he doesn't have to witness the possible destruction of the ship. But he also ends up in a drawer. He does, and I'm okay with that because I'm pie. I don't know what's going on, all right, Listeners, tell us what your favorite part of this film was, who is your favorite character? What were your thoughts when you saw this for the first time. Let us know by sending an email at a film by Podcast at gmail dot com, or reach us online at a film by podcast dot com. Follow us on all the social media platforms, and if you're looking for more exclusive content and swag, send some Latinum our way through Patreon. See you next time for another episode of Phasers. Step to Stun