Ted Demme - The Ref

0:00 Lambert, it is Christmas Eve, and I have to know what what is Christmas all about? For you? Really? Christmas is just my family being together, with us being so far apart. Sometimes it's a it's a FaceTime or something like that. But Christmas Eve, Liam and I always spend together. That's always been our kind of thing. And then Christmas Day was always you know, the who rest of the family. So it doesn't really matter if you get the tree up or not, or how many presents you were able to come through with this year. You know, we were all just about getting together, playing games and stuff like that.

0:43 So, in essence, Christmas is all about family. Yes, So how about you? What is Christmas all about for you? That's easy. It's all about sex and drugs and women being set on fire. Amber, Let's talk about a film by Ted Dimi, his nineteen ninety four underrated dysfunctional family Christmas film The Ref. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson, I'm Ambra Lewis, and this is a film by podcast Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays, Right Amber.

1:47 It's Christmas Merry Christmas. Episode Christmas Eve. Yeah, hopefully people are listening. They're on their way to the family get together. They got something to listen to. They can turn this one on, yes, or they're driving home, they're driving, they're driving somewhere, you know. And depending on how that family get together goes, you might want to watch this movie when you're finished. Yeah. Maybe, yeah, you never know. Before we get going, I want to start by welcoming our newest Patreon member, Lisa. Lisa. We hope you're loving our exclusive content on Patreon, and we'd love to hear from you if you've got a favorite episode.

2:29 Yeah, bet Welcome Lisa. Yeah, I'm betting that favorite episodes is gott include Amber Lewis. I mean, maybe it could be two for two, so you know, hey ten ten for two is ten for two is really quickly becoming a favorite. So yeah, we'll see, we'll see. But happy to have you, Lisa and uh and a very merry Christmas and happy Holidays to you as well as well as our other Patreon subscribers. Because there Melissa's building. Amber. I don't know if you've noticed that. It's I knows, whole family of our own over there. Loving loving it. Speaking of family, last week, you and I did another one of our listener favorite nineteen a six episodes. We did Something Wild, which was directed by Jonathan Demi, and here we are today talking about a film directed by his nephew. What were the keeping it in the I don't even know what the chances were that it's it's almost like it was planned, but it actually wasn't.

3:27 The fact that it wasn't is what is really astounding. Oh yeah, well yeah. I always love when I when I'm doing when I'm doing research, I'm like, wait what. And the fun thing here is that not only did we just do something Wild on Patreon that connects to this movie, we have one last nineteen ninety six episode and it's going to tie to this movie coming out. So it's just a conspiracy theory. It's aliens, right, It's it's crazy Amber. I know. This one's a little This one's a little underrated. It didn't do well at the box office. Maybe because it came out in March. Uh maybe maybe there are other reasons, but it has established I established.

4:12 By Dennis Leary talking about how they just destroyed the marketing. I believe it, Like, why is this coming out in March? Why were they selling it? Like he was coming off all of his stand up stuff. So they were pushing that stand up MTV shenanigans and yeah, like he goes on one kind of riff at one point. That's just not really who he is in the movie. No, So he was very you know, I love Dennis Leary. See, he was very outspoken at how he thought they messed the whole thing up. Yeah, they definitely were pushing this very hard in a this is a this is the aggressive, fast talking Dennis Leary, because that's what we you know, it was nineteen ninety four, that's what we knew him as. Right. But over the years, this has gained quite a bit of a cult following.

5:05 It's one of those I love to watch this movie every Christmas for whatever reason, whether I want to laugh or I want to you know, see something. You know, maybe I want my family to feel a little more normal. Watching this family. Is not my wheelhouse. And I was like, why would you even watch this? But I thought, you know, there are a lot of people for whom the holidays are a challenge. Yeah, and if you can come up and watch this again, oh, I'm like. That, Yeah, this this is We're not watching the Lewis family here, you know, We're not watching the Johnson family. This is the Chasseurs or is it that I pronounce that right? Yeah? Eighteenth century French and Huguenot or whatever. Yeah, they are.

5:47 Just when he busted out Huguenot, No you didn't. They are a dysfunctional family. But Amber for those that maybe miss this one, because this one does fly under the radar still even though it's got that cult following, give us a quick synopsis. What is this movie all about? This is a quick synopsis, just as short as the title. A cat burglar is forced to take a bickering, dysfunctional family hostage on Christmas Eve. Dennis Leary is the cat burglar. And this is one of the parts that made me laugh. It opens with him burglaring a house and this guy has set up like a magui Ver style trapped burglar.

6:34 Just it's a new definition on the cat of cat burglar. Yeah, hold on, you're I love, I love your enthusiasm. We're gonna get to it. Let's let's put a pin in that this is celebrating its thirtieth anniversary. Oh god, my question, my question to you, I want to know how you feel about the filming. Does this does this hold up or does it feel really dated to you? What's your take? No, It's did not feel dated at all. It just I don't like this kind of angry, spiteful treating of each other. Like that's just not my thing. So like movies like this, and like the Four Christmases, you know with Reese Weatherspoon and yeah, movies like that, I just I don't like that. I want to watch Happiness at Christmas.

7:25 So but having said that, like this totally holds up. And for people that like that kind of humor, which it is funny, they think I only enjoy it. I think the only thing, the only thing that feels slightly dated is that it's nineties era MTV Dennis Leary. Now, for you and I that could feel a little bit dated. But for someone that's that maybe is not familiar with his nineties work, his stand up, they're not gonna, they're not gonna, they're not gonna pick up on that. So I yeah, this movie. They they could have made this last year. Yeah. Well, and like I said, there's one part where he kind of slips into that pattern. But I was actually really impressed. I think this was his first movie, and not as first, I mean headlining.

8:18 Well, okay, you got me there headlining. Yeah, you know, so I was impressed that he was not doing that stick the whole time, that that was not how it was written. Well, I'll tell you what. Let's you know, I want to talk casts. Let's let's just stick with Dennis Leary for a second. Here here's my thought, because I think he's fun when he's playing this character of himself. And when I'm talking about I'm talking about the MTV spots, I'm talking about Who's the Man, you know, where he played the police captain. But he's really great when he's not doing Dennis Leary. And what I'm talking about there is the Sandlot demolition Man, Judgment Night. That's where I think he's doing his best acting is when he's not playing Dennis Leary, but he's he's immersing himself in like a role that could not be Dennis Leary, if that makes sense.

9:10 Yeah, I do have to agree with that. He has I think maybe has more range than than he always knew that he had, maybe a project or a director to bolster that confidence, to stretch a little. Yeah. Well this this movie, this is part of a three picture deal he gets with Disney, which let that, let that marinate for a seconds. Starts it's like Disney and then you see Don and Jerry Breckheimer come on, They're like, are we blowing things up? What is this? What? What's going on here? You? And it's an R rated Christmas movie with foul mouth Dennis Lyric stand up? Yeah, what are we doing? I think he's fantastic here though, Yeah, because again he's playing that that that iconic nineties character that he created. But it's for ninety minutes, ninety plus minutes, but it doesn't get old. It feels it's just fun, you know, because he has there's there's a couple of moments where he dials it down and he has some conversations.

10:14 We'll talk about those here when we talk about noteworthy scenes. But he's just fun to watch. Right, Yes, yeah, yes, absolutely, And. I feel like, you know, I granted this is nineteen ninety four, so he's the headliner, right, but it never feels like it's the Dennis Larry movie. There is such a great game of catch happening between him, Kevin Spacey, and Judy Davis throughout the entire film, and they never dropped the ball. That's my that's my that's my thoughts. Yes, absolutely, and it's neat that they don't none of them. Let Kevin Spacey run away with the movie either, which what's kind of. Hard it is, And we'll get to him, but before we do, I want to talk about Judy Davis.

10:58 She's playing Caroline her so much. Okay, So here's the thing, sixty eight credits on IMDb, and I only know her from this and playing Jennifer Anderson's insanely awesome boss in The Breakup, which leaves sixty six roles that I'm unaware of. How do we feel about her, Amber, because you seem to know her, you seem to love her. Take me on the Judy Davis trip. So she is just this bonkers Australian who is insanely talented. She did a Judy Garland biopic okay, and is just completely unrecognizable like Judy Garland. She becomes Judy Garland like it's absolutely amazing. And she did a lot of Woody Allen and she is perfect for his movies, Like she is perfect playing this New York fast talking neurotic. Get it, just like Barrel of Energy.

12:05 You you just solve the puzzle for me because I agree with you. She seems like a perfect fit in a Woody Allen film, like her her level of performance. But we all know my disdain for Woody Allen, so I've seen very few of his films, so I've probably missed a lot of Judy uh in his work. So yeah, unfortunately, it's She's fantastic. Hard to I loved Woody Allen back in the day, but it's hard to go back to that anymore. I think he's overrated. I think most of us stuff's bourgeois junk. Oh see, I never thought that before. Yeah, he's a horrible human being.

12:49 So I like mighty aphrodite. I'll give you that. Yes, that was good. So there's one movie that she made that I don't think is a bailable but it's worth like trying to hunt down. It's called One Against the Wind, and it's about a woman who worked for the French Red Cross during World War Two and she's sneaking Allied airman who'd been shot down. She's like sneaking them back across enemy lines. And it's like a total Judy Davis typical character, where it's this strong woman who like she's going like toe to toe with these Nazis and not putting up with their crap and it's a really amazing story. It's a true story.

13:37 Is it a TV movie or is it a movie? Yeah, okay, I want to track this down because. It's Sam nil in it. I'm in. Yeah, it's really really good, but it's hard to find. But if you don't like Wody Allen, that's another one that really shows like she's just she's just amazing. She's just this barrel of energy that comes in and yeah, it turns the movie on its ear. Well, she has that, she has that presence, like you know, back to the Breakup, which I think that's it's hilarious. That's together movie like this one that I won't watch because. It's just it's funny. It's funny, but it gets a little dark and doesn't really exactly have the happy ending.

14:18 Is that what you're saying? Well, I mean it's right there in the title. Well, like, I haven't watched two hours of people learning to hate each other and breaking up like that's misery. Oh you probably a War of the Roses fan, then I'm guessing. But oh I watched it and I hated it. Oh my lord, we're gonna cover that next year, I think, uh, and I'm gonna have to have you on just so we can. Yeah, I'll watch it again, talk about how much I hated it, think. About the breakup. She has what maybe three scenes in the whole movie and just comes in and pushes the plunger on the dynamite and it just explodes. She's awesome. So I just I'm sitting here thinking, like I was watching this, I was watching the ref the other night, and I'm like, where is this woman? Why didn't we get more from her? And then you know, come to find she's done plenty. I just it's stuff I haven't seen, so I yeah, yeah, I'm definitely I got I gotta find the World War II Sam Neil Nazi movie because that sounds awesome. So thank you for that. I'm looking that one up. You mentioned that it was gonna be difficult for Kevin Spacey not to steal the show, but let's let's think about that. It's nineteen ninety four, which means he's not the top draw, and up to this point he's slowly breaking out of the that guy persona because when you look at his his roles pre nineteen ninety four. Probably his biggest moment is in Glenngary Glenn Ross in nineteen ninety two.

15:42 And that was like the subtle character. Yeah, he is definitely like the quiet, reserved person in that film because everyone dials it up to eleven, you know, and that movie's awesome. That's one of the greatest movies ever here, which is saying, yes, some of the greatest performances. But when you think of that, remember in. The nineties when like everybody did that Alec Baldwin monology had its like that thing to do. We loved it. Are you kidding me? It was so good. I can't tell you how many times I've quoted Alec Baldwin from Glengarry Glenn Ross watch more than Your Car. I've used that one, you know, different story, we'll talk about that off off Bike.

16:27 But but arguably Kevin Spacey has like the meanest, most diabolical piece of dialogue in that entire movie, and he's so quiet and like just horrible about it, and you're like. This guy was the freaking villain through the whole thing, cerebral assassin. Yes, this is nineteen ninety four, which means he's one year away from his Breakout performance in the Usual Suspects in nineteen ninety five, also does Outbreak and Seven that same year. I mean, he got the Oscar again for American Beauty at playing kind of this character. Okay, so let's you know you're right, like he goes on a hit parade for the rest of the nineties.

17:12 I want you to listen to this list of films he did after the ref and tell me which movie failed. Tell me to find the weak spot here, because for the rest of the nineties he does A Time to Kill l A Confidential Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil, then The Negotiator, A Bugs Life, Hurley Burley, the Big Kahuna, and then American Beauty. Where as you said, he wins the Oscar for Best Actor. That's one hell of a trip in the nineties. Wow, yeah, amazing. What do you think? What do you think about Kevin Spacey playing He's doing both comedic and dramatic stuff here, but the comedic stuff is hilarious. I think, yes, yes, there was no stop sign.

18:00 He's he's I think that he and Judy Davis paired together, were perfect because nobody can do this. Bickerson's you know deal like the two of them, I mean, just bringing a history that you don't know, but they bring to every word they say. I believe they've been together for twenty plus years. It's it's unreal. Like you watch this and hats off to Judy Davis, hats off to Kevin Spacey because their relationship where you're seeing it at its darkest and most vulnerable point, they have this ability to show show you like the good times they had and just the little the little things that they're doing where they're they're taking digs at each other like I love like when he does the you know, like he kind of patronizes their use the ouch list. We have a bunch of you know, like but he's like, She's like, what do you expect? I'm afraid, you know. I so buy them as a couple, and I love what I love what they're doing here. But moving forward a few more people I definitely want to talk to you about. Should we talk about Christine Baranski playing Connie the sister in law. She's she's one of these amazing actresses where the second I see her face, I recognize her and I know who she is, and she's done like a hundred movies. But it's not like,

19:32 oh I loved her in this movie or I loved her in that movie. But I always remember her in the ref playing this, this nineties version of a Karen you know. Well, it's so funny because it's so against type, because she's usually more of a New York glamorous type of Digiti Davis's character. Like really she was in the Birdcage, she was in OK, Mama Mia, Like she's always shows up and she's just fabulous and bitchy. And see, so that'd be a little. Bit different for her fabulous and bitchy because the roles I associate her too are this one where she's playing Connie, the sister in law, and then when she's playing doctor Nora on Frasier and when she came in, like just came in and just burned, burned the studio down. He couldn't stand her. Yeah, so she's fantastic in this. I love I love when her daughter you know that. You know, Hey, there's a there's a guy in the loose. The police are looking for him and daughters in the back seat.

20:34 Maybe in the spirit of Christmas, they'll catch them and let him go. She's like the spirit of Christmas is either you're good or you're punished and you go to hell. This woman's awesome, you know, completely completely, just eviscerates her husband. That guy, he's a total tool. Well at the end, like he says something about who thinks I should shoot the mother in law or whatever? She raises her. She's like, yeah, that's fine, go ahead. Well after after the family's arguing, I know we're jumping ahead, but when the family is like all out at war and the and the mom is like, who the hell do you think you're talking to? And she's like slipper socks medium, like this wealthy woman has given the shittiest gifts. Yes, oh I I'll tell you what was. Will put a big SMA in my face. JK. Simmons playing the superintendent the colonel at the Military Academy Amber. This is his feature film debut.

21:34 I can't believe that he's the one that I feel like has been around forever. I'm like, he was just making movies at the same age he ages. He's this guy and he's been around forever. I can't believe this is his first movie. Yeah, you want like because he does he typically you know he truthfully does look the exact same. Yeah, And as soon as I saw him, was like, I immediately got a little sad because I was like, I know, his role in this is very small, and I just wish it was bigger and we had more of Ciskel. I was. I was disappointed that it ended so soon. I don't have I don't remember the full story, but uh, I was reading something a couple of weeks ago where the writer named his character Ciskel because he wanted to show like a slimy because you know, you know, he's a nice guy, but obviously he's being blackmailed by their son Jesse for things he shouldn't be doing as a family Maynor. The writer named him ciscl after Gene Siskel, because Geene Siskel wrote some kind of scathing article about him, you know, when he was writer.

22:45 Of the screenplay Richard. La GRAVINESI I know he's Italian. He's written all kinds of amazing things, like I can't believe he brought the vitriol to this movie. And this is the same guy that wrote A Little Princess and Bridges of Masson County and the Fisher King and Jean Siskel famously hated the Fisher King. Yep, I think that's what the article was about. It was something about like where he was nominated for like the like some I don't know what award, maybe the maybe the Oscars, but it's like a screenplay award. And Ciskel was like upset about it, like this, this writing sucks. He shouldn't ever, you know, so he wrote like that amazing.

23:30 He deserved to have a mean guy with his name. You know what Ciskel said when he found out about this, Oh god, he said, oh he said, oh man, I wish they would have got someone like Jack Nicholson to play me. Then rude, just just ciscling all over the place. Yeah, he's fun. I got one more and this one, this one was tricky because he's not He's in the movie, but he's not. Because this is the story. The subplot is all about Dennis Leary trying to escape this town who which is locked down. It's like one of these like Connecticut towns, Massachusetts whatever. It's like a yeah little. It's like a. Super rich neighborhood. It's unlocked. He's trying to escape out because he attempted to uh burgle the uh the Willard Mansion.

24:19 You Jeremiah Willard. I can't remember. I know the movie. I just I feel bad because I just watched a movie and I don't remember what. But he's like a you know what was he like a theme park tycoon or something like that. I can't remember for sure, but oh yeah, do you remember when they showed like there was like a newscaster and they're like, Jeremiah Willard is offering a two hundred thousand dollars award blah blah blah, and they showed like the photo like in the news on the on the news, or showing the photo of the guy Jeremiah Willard. I mean, I don't think I was paying that close attention. You just saw a photo of a guy, right, you know who that guy was? I don't really care. No, Kenneth Utt who we just talked about a Thin Wild episode on Patreon, Little Little the Little old Man from Silence of the Lambs.

25:06 Oh that's so funny. Yeah, and that's weird. I wanted. I tried to dig to find out what the what the connection here is besides there being a you know, connection between Ted and Jonathan Demmy. But UH is not producing this because you know he does. We talked about he produced and executive produced a lot of stuff, a lot of big things. Right, Yeah, well he's not a producer on this movie. He just happens to be the the photograph. Of the he knew to a guy or something. It's got to be something like that. I don't know, but it's fun. As soon as I saw that, as like, oh, Amber's gonna smile. What are the chances we're talking about?

25:47 What are the chances we're gonna talk about Kenneth utt on more than one episode and it's back to back episode. So I thought that was fun. We'll take a quick break when we get back, we'll discuss noteworthy scenes and the pill little moment, maybe a little background on this movie. Welcome back, talking about Ted Dimi's nineteen ninety four Christmas comedy The ref Amber. There's there's plenty of scenes in this movie that are gonna make you laugh or not make you laugh, but I want to talk about a couple of them, and then I would love to hear what you feel is the pivotal moment, because I got I got a hunch that we have the same one.

26:28 But let's go back to the beginning of the movie where we open with therapy with doctor Wong. Taking a break from cloning dinosaurs. Goatcha yea yeah bad, that's b D Wong. You're right, yeah, you're absolutely right. This open, this, this these first like three or four minutes tells you everything you need to know about this this couple. You can hit the disdain on Kevin Spacey's face as she's talking about her dreams and you know, her surd dream with we were you know, it was like it's you know, I went to have dinner and it's it was his head with his penis sticking up his ear and just you know, and then she's like.

27:10 I totally felt like she read that in a book somewhere and was like using it to just get a dig at him. Yeah, well I just when she when when when doctor Wong is talking about their sex life and she just brutally assassinates him with with the line the sex wasn't noteworthy. The way she says it, it almost sounds like it sounds worse than her saying it was never good or it was bad, like it wasn't noteworthy. You know, I just you know, I love this moment because you know, you feel like, yeah, you take on Kevin Spacey in this moment is that he's pissed at her for her infidelity, but he just wants to get past it. He just wants to forget about it, and he just wants to hold it over her indefinitely.

28:06 Yeah. His big thing is like, I don't want to talk about it. Yeah, I don't want to address it. I don't want to deal with it. I don't want to decide if we should stay together or break up. I just want to act like it didn't or I just don't want to talk about it. But I want to treat you like garbage because you did it. Yeah, doctor Wong, how do you feel about this dream? I'd like it to stop talking about it at dinner parties. Yeah. Great, great moment, but equally great because this movie is all about, you know, three people. Ultimately, let's go over to the Willard Mansion where Dennis Leary is breaking in and you start, you started, you started talking about this and I had to.

28:47 I had to. I had to. I had to hold you, just hold you back. Oh my gosh, is this like Kevin McAllister grows up and this is his mansion? You know the booby trap app with this safe. Breaking into this safe is awesome. What makes me laugh every time I watch this movie is the moment he opens it. He cracks it. You hear a cat scratch, a cat streage, you know, and then and then the little thing jumps out and sprays cat piss all over it. It's so gross. Then like the movie people are like, he saw a cat?

29:30 Yeah? Well that I love when movies have a running joke from beginning to end. And that whole thing. Do you smell something? Shut up? Because he got spray. He he can spray with cat piss in his face. And then this whole thing like again, no one, no one to, no one to quit because he's taken all these jewels and all this crazy. You know. It's like he's robbing the Clue mansion. And then there's one last little ring in the back and the second he pulls it, it's like a booby trap where the floor falls up, you know, opens beneath him. Hees falling down, the slide hits the ground and there's that brutal attack dog waiting.

30:10 For him, so terrifying. He throws a pool ball at it and it catches it and crushes it in its mouth. Have you ember, have you ever held a pool ball in your hand? I mean, of course, but I was laughing, like, my little, my little Yorky would have decimated that pool ball. He can eat anything. Jaws, you know, super Jaws. I love this name. Cannibal. Yeah. Yeah. When they're like, you know, she's like, oh you're bleeding, He's like, yeah, goddamn dog bit me, Cannibal bit you. And he's like he stops with his name is Cannibal. What kind of psychopath gets a dog and names it Cannibal. That's just weird, you know, but it's it's hilarious in the movie. I think another thing kind of ongoing throughout the movie. This guy gets several scenes and every time he shows up it gets better and better.

31:07 Talk about drunk Sannah George. He just you know, he's getting forced. You know, he's walking around doing the holiday thing. He's in costume as Santa Claus. The kids are just cramming cookies and milk at him, and he starts to lose his cool. Yep, oh, man, go home, George or drunk you know this guy Amber. I think he's the best Santa Claus since Dan Aykroyd in Trading Places. Yes, they're definitely a pair. They're on the same bowling team. I think absolutely, Yeah, love drunk Sanna. And then I want to talk about the Christmas dinner with the family, because, as you kind of alluded to, this movie is hilarious, but it takes some serious turns and it loses the comedy. But I think it works. But I don't know that you think it works because is this this dinner scene. It's it's it's fun until it gets like, oh, like this is this just got this just got real? Right? How do you about this moment?

32:11 Well? It I mean it makes my stomach hurt, Like just the thought of being at this table is anxiety inducing. But it is the moment when they really you know, Judy Davis finally reaches a point of intoxication where she doesn't care anymore. She's like, I have fought with my husband, I've been kidnapped, I've been tied up, and now everybody is, you know, giving me a hard time about this neat dinner that I tried to make for everybody, and she like is out of anything to care about, so she just starts telling her truth and it is brutal, and Kevin Spacey's like, well, now, let me just give it a little counter attack, because yes, everything you said was true, but you're leaving a few little details out.

33:10 Well yeah, Like there's a lot of laugh out loud moments around the dinner table, but when she kind of slips into this, telling it like it is, and then he started like, it's like attack counterattack, and they're just they're just airing out all their dirty laundry in front of the family. It's almost like you're watching a Neil Simon play. All of a sudden, it's like, whoa, whoa this I'm not laughing anymore. But I feel bad for her. Wait, no, I feel bad for him until you get to I feel bad for both of them. They just seem miserable, you know. And I can never quite figure out, like why they're still together. Like the scene is so thick, like just walk away.

33:53 She wants out, like she makes it clear at the beginning of the movie, and he makes it clear we're not getting a divorce. So I feel like for him, he's miserable, but for him it's a status thing, like it's a I don't want to look like I failed. I don't want to, you know, he wants to keep up appearances in this rich neighborhood that they live in. And she just was like, I'm ready to leave. Like what's what she say when she's like lashing out, She's like, I'd rather be a truck stop waitress with blue hair and pineapple wearings and you know, be alive instead of being dead here. You know, they go they go dark. I don't know that I love I don't know that I I love it. Well, I definitely don't love it, but I think I still like it because you can't just laugh nonse. It's not a comedy in the sense that, oh this you're could have laughed the whole time. It's yeah, it gets a little it gets a little serious. There's there's there's a couple of moments about the movie where it's a little more serious. You know, I want to talk pivotal moment because I want to hear yours because I think we have the same one.

34:53 I doubt it because mine's very small. Okay, what do you got The The moment in this movie that makes that makes the movie. The moment for me was when they first get back to the house and Dennis Leary has them tied up in the kitchen and they're arguing about did Judy Davis quit smoking or not? And then he finally like shoves them so that their chairs fall over and they're laying on their back on the floor and he like gets in her face and he's like, you know, where are the cigarettes? And she finally tells him where they are, and Kevin Spacey's taking the highroad and he's like, see, I knew that you can't follow through with anything. And then Dennis Larry just gets in his face and he goes, did you see the stop sign? Yes, you saw the stop sign, and he finally makes him admit that he is just as much of a liar as she is.

35:49 And I was like, that is a therapeutic breakthrough the doctor Wong could never achieve. Exactly. Yeah, then you two are a liar. There go little I, little a little R period. Yeah, because Kevin Spacey is is so happy that he is putting her in her place and he and Dennis Leary sees that grin and that's you know, you sell stops on Denny Lloyd, Yes, yes, and. That's like that's the moment when like Dennis Larry he has now invested. Yeah, all right mine definitely not a comedic moment, but it's the moment where Dennis Leary's character is having somewhat of a heart to heart with their son Jesse upstairs.

36:38 Because this kid is a juvenile, delinquent. He's you know, he's bribing people at school. He's bribing is, he's bribing Siskel. He's got all this money, and he's he's just a bad kid, and he thinks Dennis Leary's life is amazing and wants that life, and he's like, where do you go? And Dennis Leary kind of breaks down and tells him, like, well, here's here's how we do it. You know. We we steal all this shit and then we fence it and we get half, and then we go down to Jamaica and we hang out and then we lose all our money and then we come right back up and it sucks and it's not a great life. Like Dennis Leary is breaking down and talking about how terrible his life is and how it's not glamorous. It's like he's trying to get through to this kid. He's trying to reach this kid and let him know, like you've got a great life. You've got parents that love you, you got all the you know, the big house, you've got a formal education, and they just can't see my eye because the kid's like, no, my life is awful and you've seen my parents. And I think that's the moment where you're like, you know what, Dennis Leary is not a bad guy. For all the things that he's doing, robbing and you know, taking hostages, he's still trying to keep this kid on the up and up. So I think for me, I really liked that moment in this.

37:51 And Dennis Leary's doing some great acting there too, because he's at the end when he realizes he's not reaching, he's not getting through to this kid. He's just like, you know, yes, love it. I know there's not a lot, but let's talk background. You mentioned the writer Richard Logrevinisi, so he co writes this with his sister in law, Marie Weiss. Apparently it's inspired by their families. Did you see that? Yes, which I was like, ew wow. Yeah, what a family. Yeah. She says she was inspired by an argument that she had with her husband, thinking to herself, wouldn't it be great if a third party just stepped in to referee. So several drafts are written before it's taken to Disney, which, okay, it's nineteen ninety four, and Disney's the first place they go. And I know Disney, you know, thanks to Dayton Johnson from the Documented seventy seven podcast. He was just on our Film at forty five series and he was talking about how Disney created Touchstone so they could kind of do more adult movies.

38:55 I don't know when Touchstones starts, but I'm just saying, a movie like this that you've written, it's a rated R, dark Christmas family dysfunctional movie. How is Disney the first place you go? I don't know. I guess maybe if you figure, you know, a lot of the bigger production companies have other fish to fry, and this is a. Smaller movie, I guess, but. You know that that'd be the place to get it made if they want to start branching out into this edgier business. Well, the crazy thing is, like I'm writing this. If I'm writing this script, I'm going to Fox. I'm going to Warner Brothers, going to Universal, not going to Disney. But she was right, because Disney approves the project. The same day they meet with her.

39:41 Yeah, it was like in twenty minutes. Yeah, yeah, you got twenty minute meetings in the. Player and made their pitch and that was it. Oh, I got something on the player. I can't you always find a way to get back to the player, but I've got I was going to bring something back to you. So how about that? Yeah? But you know, so your of rewrites finds its way to Ted, Demi and Dennis Leary, who had just worked together on his stand up special No Cure for Cancer Again Dennis Leary Red Hot MTV No Cure for Cancer and Amber. You've you've seen that special, You've heard that that that album. Oh my god, how is Disney going? Can we get Dennis Learry on the phone again? It? The way this all comes together is just it stupefies me. But one more thing. You know, we just talked about the pivotal moment, So you know I was talking about I was talking about how Gusts and Jesse's heart art conversation about whose life is worse? Yes, did you read about Here's here's what I can't fathom the original ending of this movie.

40:42 Can we talk about that for a second. Yeah, because I don't even know how anybody thought this was going to be a plausible ending. Okay, so clue the listeners in, how does If you've seen the ref we know how it ends, but tell tell us how it how it originally ended. It originally ended with Dennis Leary turning himself in to show Jesse that a life of crime, you know, isn't going to lead anywhere. It's ultimately you're going to get caught. What a crock of shit, Like, there's no. Freaking way this guy is gonna be turn himself in for some kid that he met like two hours ago. No, like, what a bunch of horseshit.

41:26 Yeah, test audiences hated it. Set up the whole movie, like he's your hero. He's an anti hero, but he's a hero nonetheless. Yeah, and so of course you wanted him to get away. Like, well, it's a good thing you got a big studio like Disney behind you, because they reshoot the new ending three months before the film's released. Incredible. When they do that down to the wire stuff, it just stresses me out. I don't I don't understand why to do it, but yeah, do it? All right, Well, we're going to take one last break and when we return, we'll talk a little bit about Ted Demi and wrap things up. Welcome back, Amber.

42:11 Let me throw three things about Ted Dimi to you. And I got a little quote. I've got a cryptic quote, but I think there's something in here that you're gonna be like, what. So let's talk about the first thing, and this one is going to blow our friend deaf Dave's mind. Oh boy, Amber ted Dimmi began his career working as a production assistant for MTV, works his way up and in nineteen eighty eight creates a show called Yo MTV Raps. Oh my gosh, this guy created Yo MTV Raps. How what tc? Yeah? And on that note, the first thing he directed was, in fact, a music video.

42:59 You've talked and I've talked before about these directors that start get their start music videos. Yes, I know for a fact that young Amber was jamming out to this one. You know, a video he directed his his The first thing he ever directed was this was this music video. I mean, it's gotta be a rapper. Salt and Peppa's push it. Yes, how about that? Oh man? That was the jam? Oh my? Who is this guy? Right? Yeah? And you know, I don't want I don't want to bring that. You know, this movie we laugh and then we it gets a little serious. I don't want to. You know, we're laughing now. I gotta get a little serious with you. Yeah. Sadly, following a celebrity basketball game for the NBA Entertainment League where he did collapse, he died several hours later from a thrombotic heart attack, and coroners believed it was brought on by cocaine. This was he was a young guy.

43:55 This was you know, I remember when I remember when this happened, and I was like, what, m m you got a heart attack playing basketball? What happened? Right? Can't do coke? Yeah? I mean this is the guy that that directed blow. I mean, so exactly. Personal knowledge. Here's a quote for you, and like I said, a little cryptic, he once said. Quote. The older I get, the more I realize there's no real good guys or real bad guys. And I'm curious about how the good guys got good and how the bad guys got bad. Wow, that is a kind of cryptic.

44:37 That's one like you listen, you hear that, and you're like, that's deep and it makes you think, Like I've been thinking about that for a couple of days. I'm like, what, it's heavy, you know, yeah, great, great director. You know. I think we definitely lost him way too soon. But Amber, if someone was unfamiliar with Ted Demi and they watched the ref and they said, I love this movie, and you know, what's what else? What else? What else? You got? Which three films would you suggest they watch? Wait, it doesn't really have. He doesn't, but he directed like county music videos. I think he's got like what twenty twenty four credits to his name. Yeah, but there's three that are must watches.

45:23 I saw that he did a couple episodes of the television series Homicide, which I loved and is now available on Peacock. And if you need an excuse to watch it, I don't know what other reason you would need other than Andre Brower. But all right, well hold on, let me just say this. Scott Hoffman wearing an Amber Lewis mask. It's the rule breaking, rule breaking. I asked you, which three films would you suggest? But it's it's Christmas Eve. Wait, you just said here music videos. He didn't even make three movies, did he?

46:09 Yeah? He made three awesome movies. Listen, listen, also be movies that I've seen. Spirit of Christmas. I'm gonna I'm gonna give you Homicide. You know you're gonna also have to give me, uh the Dennis Leary New Care for Cancer because that stand up is absolutely amazing. TV stand Okay, you're really pushing it here, but okay, I'll give it. I'll give it to you. You got you got one more? No, you don't, you don't have one. No, I mean, I'll tell you what tell tell your friend? Listen, I I really don't know. Why don't you go ask Jeff? He'll probably such a straight because here's what I would tell What would you say? First off, I mentioned Blow with Johnny Depp. Movie's awesome. That is definitely one I would recommend.

46:55 You haven't seen it, Padro Escobar. Right, No, it's about George. I can't remember his last name. George. You know George drug the Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's it's a good word. But he was not playing Escar. No, it's a It's a fantastic film. I would recommend that. One. One of the last things he directed was a documentary called A Decade Under the Influence. A must watch for anyone who loves seventies filmmaking because it's a documentary. Him and a couple other guys basically interview some of the biggest directors from the seventies and it's all about how seventies cinema, you know, came about like that.

47:44 You know, Oh that sounds amazing. I'm telling you, it's fantastic and. I completely agree with all of it. So yeah, definitely check that one out. I think you'll love it. Oh my god. Yeah. And lastly, you gotta put this one on your list, you know, because I'm assuming you haven't seen it. We are going to be covering it this Friday. We got one last episode from our limited series nineteen ninety six. Our buddy Andy Frye is going to be back to talk with me and we'll be discussing his nineteen ninety six film Beautiful Girls. Oh. Dayton Johnson loves this movie. Well he should. I love this movie. Andy Fryer loves this movie. I can't believe you haven't seen it. You would love you would love this movie. I'm talking all star cast here. Everybody is in this movie. Timothy Hutton, Uma Thurman, Michael Rappaport a young Nolly Portman. She's like she's like post Leone but pre Star Wars. Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, you know it's all about Timothy Hutton's h Dylan. Yeah, but you know it's and I'll clean you in real quick.

48:53 Timothy Hutton's like he went off to New York to be this amazing musician, but he's kind of kind of grinding it out. I was really guying war. So he's kind of like having like a crisis of like do I want to do this or do I want to do I not want to do this. He goes back home for his high school reunion and all his friends that he graduated or grew up with, they're all they never left town. So it's kind of like a coming home movie. But it's it's dramatic comedy. It's it's so much fun, and we're going to talk about it this Friday. So awesome. Yeah, I have to watch it and you'll have to watch. It, so know what you guys have to say about it. Absolutely So those those are my three picks. Amber. I'm almost nervous to ask the question, but do we recommend seeing this film? Well, you know what's what's your final thoughts here?

49:42 I think if you like that kind of darker humor, like if you're a person who prefers the British Office to the American Office television show, then this is the kind of humor that you like. This is the kind of movie that you like if you like the movie The Breakup and you know, poor Christmases and stuff like that, or if your family is just a dumpster fire and you need to, you know, have some a movie that you can like commiserate with and these people feel your pain, you can watch this movie. But if you're like me and you want Christmas just to be shiny and Charlie Brown and you know, then stay in your happy place, all right. Well, and maybe March was a good time for it to come out for people like me.

50:31 I for one, love the unconventional, darker Christmas movies, the dysfunctional family Christmas movies, because I laugh at it. But I also when it gets a little more serious, it helps me appreciate what I have, because I my family is the farthest thing from the Chasseurs right that you can get God, So I love seeing movies like this because it makes me because I know they're our families out here that are like this. If there weren't they, we wouldn't get movies like this. And I'm happy. I'm happy to know, like you know, later later this later this afternoon, I'll be going. I'll be going to a very warm and loving family get together and enjoying Christmas. Yes, unlike unlike Lloyd and and Uh and Caroline. So but they have a happy ending, right they you know they do.

51:27 Dennis Leary helps them work through their ship and they come understanding. Yeah, he kind of saved Christmas, so it ends happy. We can give it that well. Listeners, what do you think of the ref Have you seen it? Please let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for our film and TV articles, our entire library, which is streaming free. You can write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read response on the show and send you some film by Swag and Real Quick. Too many to name, but I know we will name them on our New Year's Eve special Amber. We have gotten plenty of responses. We put out we put out an email to all of our subscribers asking them, you know, what are your top ten movies for the twenty twenties. At this point, we're halfway through the twenty twenties, so we told everyone, hey, you know, twenty twenty to twenty twenty four, what's your top ten? Andrew Blakely is going to be hosting a little New Year's Eve special that we're going to drop on New Year's Eve, which is another Tuesday, And I believe Jason Colvin from the Surely You Can't Be Serious podcast will be joining us to kind of go over what are the top ten films? So Amber, I know he wants to hear from you too, Like he's like, where's.

52:48 I am working diligently on my list? All Right, We're good. We're into this year with a band. We've got a lot of fun stuff, and then we've got so much fun stuff in store for twenty twenty five. Can you talk about We're not ready to talk about it, are we? We were talking about it though and planning, and it's going to be a great year. I'll tell you what a little sneak peek, We're gonna have a lot more Amber Lewis. Yes, I'm looking forward to it. Yeah, some fun, fun new limited series with Amber Lewis that we'll get to in the new year. Until then, Amber, thank you so much. I hope, I hope your Christmas today is fantastic. I hope you guys, you and Liam and the family. I think, I hope you guys all have a wonderful day.

53:31 Thank you you as well. Thank you, and to all of you listening to the show, following us on social media and subscribing to our Patreon, we thank you. We wish you a very merry Christmas and the happiest of holidays. Happy Holidays, everybody,