Joe Johnston - The Rocketeer

0:00 This episode of a Film Buy is brought to you by black Key Cooffee. Head over to black Keycoffee dot com and get your favorite flavor. Not sure what you want, then build your own sample pack and try several black Key coffee. With enough coffee, anything is possible. We hope this holiday weekend you are staying safe out there, whether you're traveling by a car or jetpack. We got a film by Joe Johnston, his nineteen ninety one underrated pulp hero classic The Rocketeer Up next. Hell, Everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson and I'm Scott Hoffman, and this is a film by podcast. Today we're discussing a film that takes place in Los Angeles nineteen thirty eight. This past weekend, we dropped another one of our Lost nineteen a six episodes on Patreon, covering Shanghai Surprise, which takes place in Shanghai nineteen thirty seven. Scott with Glennon and Wazy Lyndon. We're not gonna do that again. No, uh,

1:34 we didn't plan that, but it's it's kind of cool. We're going back to back with with period piece films, adventure films, as if it was meant to be so don't miss all the bonus content and exclusive episodes. You can check out patreon dot com slash a film by podcast and start subscribing, or sign up for a free membership because we are dropping free content as well. Scott, back to The Rocketeer, What can you tell the listeners about this one? For those who haven't seen it, It's three years before the start of World War Two and local stunt pilot Cliff Seacort has just made a discovery that could end the war before it begins. Cliff and his friend peev find an experimental rocket pack hidden in their hangar. After a high speed chase almost destroys their livelihood, but after a little Howard Stark style tinkering, Peevie turns the rocket into a full flight suit that Cliff uses for a daring rescue. Soon, their little corner of California is crawling with FBI agents, mobsters, and a nefarious actor who wants to help the Nazis create a flying army that would threaten the entire world. Based on the popular independent comic by Dave Stevens, The Rocketeer is one of the most underrated comic based movies of the nineties. That also paved the way for many more important comic movies to come. Joe Johnston directing this one, And if you think this film has a familiar aesthetic, it's because Johnston worked for ILM on both Star Wars and Raiders of the Lost Ark. Yeah, now have you seen the series Light and Magic on Disney? Plus, I don't think I've caught that yet.

3:05 You'd absolutely need to end. The first episode actually gives you some great insight into Joe Johnson and the rest of the crew that worked on the first Star Wars. So Joe in this talks about how he started out with Star Wars. Apparently he had just finished the industrial design program at cal State Long Beach, where Joe Dykstra had also graduated a few years earlier. Now Joe didn't Johnston didn't graduate because the commute was too much for him, which comes up as a little bit more important to his story. So it's a horrible commute. He happened to see a flyer in the design department one day that they were looking for artists, model builders, etc. For a space movie.

3:50 So he thought, sure, I'll give it a shot because it's a better commute. Wow, he got Star Wars because it was a better commute. His job offer was for six weeks doing storyboards, and said, sure, I can do that, but he had no idea what a storyboard was at all. Star Wars was actually the first movie script he had ever read in his life. But he goes on to help streamline and improve the ships, like the X Wing, the Tie Fighters. He even came up with a millennium Falcon design with inspiration from a roughly designed cockpit and a stack of dirty dishes. It's amazing this guy takes a job as a storyboard artist without knowing what one is. Yeah, and it's for George Lucas on Star Wars.

4:31 That's yeah, and he's not He's not alone with that story. There's a lot of creators back in the day that have very similar stories in that first episode, so Light and Magic. If you haven't seen it, check it out. It's definitely worth it. That's on Disney Plus. Yeah, all right, definitely want to check that one out. I do want to mention Johnston's cinematographer. He's worked with a couple of times, Hero Narta. I think his work on this is absolutely gorgeous. Yeah, And if you're and like I said, if you if you feel like if this movie feels familiar, like the look of it feels familiar, you gotta remember he also worked with Johnston on HONEYE Shrunk the Kids. Scott, I'm sure you're going to talk about this at some point on Phasers at the Sun. But he was also the cinematographer for Star Trek six The Undiscovered Country. Ooh, that's a favorite. How about hocus Pocus. That's a that's Hero's work, yep, okay, and a nineteen eighty six classic that is soon to hit our Patreon.

5:36 Fire with Fire is also hero Rita's cinematography. All right, let's talk about this cast, starting with Billy Campbell. He plays Cliff Secord, otherwise known as the Rocketeer. Yep. So Disney wants Johnny Depp, which I think is fascinating because because when you think of Depp's relationship with Disney over the whole Pirates of the Caribbean franchise, it's it's interesting to know that they were looking at him way back, way back here, you know, in the late eighties. I think that's fascinating. It is, and I know that they talked about a lot of different actors stepping into the role, obviously, each one of them having a, you know, a well known name.

6:23 Yeah, so Billy Campbell was not. Yeah, Billy Campbell's not. But the producers are going after Kevin Costner, who ultimately decides to do Robin Hood. They look at Matthew Modine, who also passes, and I can't imagine why Matthew Madeen is passing on this at this time. Yeah, but Kurt Russell and Dennis Quaid showed some interest. Emilio Estevez and Bill Paxton both lobbied very hard for the role, and Paxton is on record claiming he nearly got it. But in the end, Johnson wanted an unknown, and as you said, he fought for Cammble and Campbell sends a three picture deal with Disney like they're looking. They're looking long term for the Rocketeers, like a big franchise. Yeah, well, and it definitely lends itself to that, even though I mean the comic is pretty different. Dave Stevens, the artist that created The Rocketeer, I think I heard that he was pretty satisfied with it.

7:19 I think his opinion changed a bit later, But when I heard about the casting, I remember seeing that Billy Campbell was somebody that seemed to step right off the page. Yea. His look was absolutely perfect for it, and I think it was better to use him as a relatively unknown actor because you're talking about a very independent comic roots for The Rocketeer. Well as I understand that Campbell had never heard of The Rocketeer, And as soon as he gets the roll, he picks up the comic books. He goes straight to the barber, has his haircut to look like the comic accurate Cliff Secord.

8:05 He's listening to forty thirties forties music. I mean he's he's putt in the work. Yeah, he put in a lot of work on another famous role, Scott. I don't know if you were aware of this. He had the role of Lieutenant William Riker on Star Trek the Next Generation until Jonathan Franks walked in the door Wow Wow ends up much different, but he does come back. Yeah. He plays a who is it Oconn or Yukon, someone O'Connor or conic outrageous Oconnor. That's the episode. Yeah, Yeah, I like that. I like that he might he might he loses out on Riker, but they still bring him back for something else, and he did great in that episode. I'm actually surprised that you didn't pull out a Frasier reference.

8:54 I was just about to say, I I know him as the annoyingly perfect doctor that arrives to upstage Fraser Crane until we we finally can't sing. He cannot sing at all. This that's such a fun episode. That's what episodes. Here's the one, here's the one that surprises me though, Scott, I absolutely love brom Stokers Dracula. You know the Copola film, yep. Until today, I never knew that he played Quincy. You know, the cowboy that's that's fighting alongside of him to stop Dracula. Yeah, that's Billy. That's Billy Campbell. Interesting, doesn't sound like him, doesn't look like him. Unbelievable. Yeah, I want to ask you this, and I feel like you you can definitely speak on this. I feel like the rocketeer, like his Rocketeer has a similar tone to Spider Man. And and by that I mean he he finds this, this rocket pack, right, his first thought is it's about money and fame. You know, he's trying to he's trying to get PV on board. Like I feel like, you know, kind of like how Peter Parker was like, Hey, I'm gonna I'm gonna win some money. I'm gonna go on some talk shows. I'm gonna get famous. Now do you do you see that in the In the Rocketeer. I see some parallels there. Yeah, I think it's interesting.

10:09 There's there's also parallels to Steve Rogers in the MCU in the sense that he you know, he has it originally for you know, we could make some money with this. This could save the Hangar. Not necessarily, I want to say, you know, sign major motion picture deals and all this other kind of stuff. He doesn't want to exploit the Rocketeer beyond maybe going to Nationals, but that's as high as the aspirations seemed to go. Kind of similar to Steve Rodgers. It's like where Steve says, I don't want to kill anybody. I just don't like believes. Yeah, he's not out there too, you know, to keep the suit to like he's ready to give it back. He just wants to use it to save his girlfriend. Jenny.

10:56 Yeah, let's let's talk about Jenny. The the actress, the up and coming actress, is best Gorgeous, The Gorgeous, The Gorgeous. Upcoming actress Diane Lane went after the role. Kelly Preston went after the role. Ultimately, it's Jennifer Connelly signing a two picture deal with Disney to play this part. Yeah, which it should not be anybody else. The two leads here, Billy Campbell and Jennifer Connelly. I know they were in a relationship for a while after this movie, but I cannot imagine it with anybody else at all, Like any of those other choices would just be would just be wrong. Their chemistry is amazing. They started dating during during production, which Johnston says, Hey, you know that's method acting like like I've never seen.

11:50 But you know, they get engaged. They but they break it off five years later. My question is, Billy, what are you doing? And Paul Bettany says, thank you. Yeah. Conley obviously has an eye for superheroes, you know, she she tried to make it work with the Rocketeer. Ultimately she marries Vision so and she's in Spider Man Homecoming, that's right. And she's Betty in The Anglee Hulk. Yes, the only part of the Angley Hulk that I actually like, and you know, we had talked about Top Gun Maverick, where she was Penny Benjamin. Yep. When we did that Back to the Box Office, we also talked about her.

12:39 Was it five or six years earlier in nineteen eighty six Labyrinth? Oh? Yeah, you and I did the Labyrinth episode. And so this is right around the time in her career where she's she's kind of making a turn into older roles. So it's the same year that she makes career opportunities. It's a few years before she goes into things like higher learning of Loving Shadows. She definitely secures her spot as a leading lady in this role, which is fascinating that she's one of the bigger names on the marquee for this, but it's still pretty early in her career. Well, I'll tell you what I like, aside from her in that white dress looking like a bombshell, because she she is. This is peak Jennifer Connelly as far as I'm concerned.

13:31 She is out to dinner with Timothy Dalton. I just you can't take your eyes off her. Yeah, I've been crushing on Jennifer Connelly since the Rocket Teer. I know you have, but I love the fact that her character is not the typical damsel distress. She is strong, yep. I mean she's she's she's fantastic, she's she's more of a partner to the rocketeer than she is just someone that needs saving. And that's what's one thing I love that Jennifer Connelly does in this film is she portrays a strong, independent woman who could take care of herself. Yeah. I mean, if you take a look at the head count, she kicks more butt than Cliff does.

14:11 He has more action scenes, but like actual physical contact with somebody hitting him over the head of the vase, stomping on a foot with a heel, knocking him out with whatever she's got available. Yeah, she absolutely holds her own and I love the fact that it's that kind of character. What do you think of Alan Arkin as PV? He was he was kind of an adorable proto Howard Stark, Like it seemed like he was if it was a what if story of what if Howard Hughes never made it out of the local garage, Right, he knew what he was doing, he knew his way around, you know, tinkering and a bit of design. I think he even draws up blueprints for another rocket pack of his own. Oh, she gives it, remember, uh Genny hands it to him, and then he immediately, though hemially, starts to going, hey, look if we shaved this off, and you know he's already redesigning based off the blueprints. I feel like he turns it into a flight suit because he makes the the helmet.

15:16 I think that was a striker genius. Yeah. I kind of feel like he's a less neurotic, less erratic Doc Brown in a way. Okay, I look at like I look, I look at the two of them, and I see kind of like Doc and Marty. You've got the the the young guy with the the older mentor type. They're clearly best friends. Yeah. I love Alan Arkin this, I know. I know. Originally uh Lloyd Bridges was offered the role. He turns it down. I'm happy about that because I feel like Bridges would have been a little too cartoony. Yeah, he he would have still had that mentor quality, but I don't think he would have had as much of the friendship quality that we go now it would have. I think it would have become more of like a father son dynamic than a friend dynamic. Yep. You can't have a great hero without a great villain. Timothy Dalton as Neville Sinclair. Yeah. Now, according to Dalton, the original plan was for him to play James Bond in four to five films, but after License to Kill suffered a lack of box office success in nineteen eighty nine, MGM and Eon Productions were allegedly in dispute over his tenure. Dalton gets wind of this and gracefully resigns from the role in the year nineteen ninety four. And that's important, Scott, because GoldenEye is released with the new Bond, Pierce Brosnan in nineteen ninety five. Now

16:49 think you about that for a second. We live in a world where it takes years to transition from one Bond to the next. It's a big event. And in the span of a year, Dalton has walked away, Brosnen has walked in, and they've put out They've put out GoldenEye. Wow. So and I mean you've got to respect him having that viewpoint to say, like, Okay, I'm going to step away from it just in case it was me, I'm going to step away and let somebody else do it. I think he could have done GoldenEye very well. But I think we're better off for having Pierce Brosnan in that. That was a great premiere for him to Well, you have to remember Brosnan was being courted before Dalton and had the role, but could not get out of his obligations on Remington Steel and that's how Timothy Dalton gets gets into the movie. Yeah, so I think all along they they had Brosnen waiting in the wings. I know, I know, I read, I read, I did a little digging on this recently. One M GYM executive had said that that Dalton was never in the picture for God and they knew that they were moving in a different direction and they just had to They had to convince the Broccolis that Dalton was out and Brosna was in. It is he does a little bit of theater and then he shows up here in the Rocketeer. I know they had offered the role to Charles Dance and Jeremy Irons, who both passed, and I'm glad for

18:22 that because I think either one of them would have been fantastic, especially Charles Dance. But Timothy Dalton has a has a charm and a swagger as Neville you like him. He's charismatic, right, Yeah, And I think we would have gotten similar with Charles Dance, but I feel like it would have been I don't know his age at that time, but it feels like there would be too much of an age difference with Jenny. It would be a little bit more leering and not necessarily like somebody who might have a shot. I gotcha. I think he does a great job in this one. He's chewing the scenery, especially when he starts wooing Jenny. It's that you know, your blood gets up a little bit and you're like, come on, Cliff, come on, give this ky out of the way. Well, like I said, he's I think you have to have someone like Dalton, who's a little bit younger than than Irons because because he, you know, Neville is this swashbuckling actor. You know, he's the role is basically an homage to Errol Flynton. So you know that when they're on set and he's doing like the what is it, the the Laughing Bandit, I'm not gonna I'm not gonna lie, like I'm not gonna lie. I kind of want to watch The Laughing Bandit. I want to see that movie with Timothy Dalton because it looked great, but that's true. Yeah, A couple a couple other people I want to talk about real quick. Paul Sorvino, who only accepts the role of Valentine, the gangster that's helping Neville out. Mm hm.

19:52 He gets this after Joe Pesci says no, Pa, she says no, and they say, well, who else we got in Good Fellows? They go straight to Paul Servino and he's like, yeah, I'm in I love Paul Sorvino in this because he is a gangster. He's a bad guy, yeah, but with a heart of gold, like at the end, Yeah, he's got that great turn when he's he's got an awesome turn when he helps the FBI and he's like, I'm one hundred percent of American, buddy. Yeah, when he when he finds out that that Neville is working for the Nazis, Yeah, and he's like, hey, I don't I don't want a nice buck, but I'm all American. Yeah. And then he even has like that that that throw go get him, kid when the rocketeer goes after him and the in the blump. YEP. Love Paul Servino in this. What did you think of Tero Quinn as Howard Hugh's I thought that was fantastic. I think that's the first time I remember seeing terro Quinn, and he definitely had He seemed to have the quality that you would want Howard Hughes character in this movie to have somebody that seems like a Tony Stark kind of up on a pedestal, who is not in the for you know, nefarious deeds or whatever. He chooses to throw out the rocket pack blueprints because he's like, I should have never built the damn thing. So he's on the up and up, and I think he has that endearing quality to him that really works. We've talked about him, well, you talked about him before with Andrew when you talked about Space Camp in nineteen eighty six.

21:22 He was the launch director. That's right, Yeah, that's a deep cut. Even I was like, well I did, no, Yeah, you're absolutely right. I remember him. I always remember him in Young Guns. Yes, great role for him there. I mean he's probably most recognized for his role on Lost when he played John Locke. But but I love his I love his performance as Howard Hughes. And we haven't really talked about it. But I love the fact that this movie is kind of mashing real life with fantasy. Yeah. I mean, we have people that are playing real people in American history, you know, Howard Hughes, W. C.

22:03 Fields, Clark Gable. I always think it's cool when we get when we get people playing real people in films well, and it adds to the realism, which helps with a movie like this because it's telling you, yes, it's a movie based on a comic book, which we're not used to at this point. We're not lauding those kind of things as fantastic movies. They're usually seen as for kids, whereas this is leaning it into a little bit more of a serious end of the spectrum. There's not a lot of gadgets, there's not a lot of punchlines or you know, one liners or anything else like that. And I think that era of realism and that grounding in reality helps to make it seem like a little bit more of a mature movie.

22:48 So for a family movie, you've got something the older audiences can appreciate with their kids. Yeah. Now, one thing, Scott, I want to mention before we move on. I feel like this is maybe a missed opportunity. But over at the at the airplane hanger, you know, you got everyone kind of hanging out, right, TV's got his buddies. Okay, so my first my first question to you is you got you got William Sanderson. He's just there hanging out. He doesn't have I don't I don't think he has a single line. M h Yeah. I just remember him as the guy when he was taking off in the GB, when Cliff was taking off on the GB, he kind of turns his head toward the camera because he's trying to avoid the dust flat in his face. I mean, the guy, you know, blade runner. I Well, we're not gonna get his filmography, but I mean he's known enough that you would think, like give him, give him at least one line, right, Yeah, yeah, you would think I do. Like Also, uh, one of the other guys hanging out, Eddie Jones is there who I always recognize.

23:56 You know, he played uh he played Jonathan Kent Yeah on what was it? Loasa Clark yep. Yeah, kind of feel bad for him in this movie. He's kind down down on his luck type character, you know, can't catch a break. Yeah, and when he you know, his heart's in the right place when he climbs into the GB and yeah, well no it's not in the GB and the biplane in Cliff's place as climbed the clown and the stunt show. Yeah, the stunt show clown yep. And in that moment he kind of I kind of got Randy Quibbs Randy Quaid vibes from Independence Day, even though I know it's different. Like he wasn't drunk, he was he knew what he was doing, and he was like, you know what, I'm not the best pilot, but I'm going to do this because Cliff needs it. I mean, he's a good guy. He's yeah, he's well intentioned. Yeah, funny you mentioned you mentioned Randy Quaid in INDEPENDENCEDA. We're gonna we're gonna talk about him this Friday, actually on nineteen ninety six, but I'll I'll get to that later. Anyone else you want to talk about before we move on. There's one actor that I don't think we can pass up. Goes by the name of Tiny Ron and he played yeah, which was a fantastic addition. Now this is before this is before Dick Tracy, Am I right, yes, And this seemed like the most Dick Tracy style character in the movie. It was probably one of the most cartoonish kind of aspects of it, but it didn't go over the top,

25:26 like Lothar looked like somebody who may be of that stature, with those characteristics. He even had a few speaking lines, and I think he did a great job. He gives you that menacing henchman that's got the strength to you know, throw people around and support you know, Timothy Dalton's character. Now, eventually we're going to talk about Tiny Ron. He had a couple he had a couple of roles in Star Trek, so we'll talk about him in Phaser, set to stun Well, hen Star Treking. Yeah, he was in Voyager and quite a few episodes on Star Trek Deep Space nine. I actually I had to look because I wasn't one hundred percent sure. But actually Dick Tracy comes out the year before this movie. But to your point, to your point, he's I feel like he's a Dick Tracy villain upgrade.

26:18 He got we got makeup by Rick Baker. He's it's a little more realistic than what we see in Dick Tracy, a little more, a little a little less cartoony a little more menacing and uh absolutely love it. Yeah. This guy, uh tiny Ron Ron Taylor. I guess uh, as it goes his agent, you know, there was already a Ron Taylor in SAgs. So his his agent, noting Andre the Giant, tells the seven foot tall Ron Taylor, like, change your name to tiny Ron because you'll stand out. Yeah, that's a good call. I guess he does. Sure. Sure. Now, before we move on to the film's background, can we can we take a minute to talk about James Horner and his absolutely amazing score for this film. Yeah. I mean even from the first notes when you hear it over the opening credits, it starts off as very slow and approachable. It sets you in that kind of small town feel in exactly the right moments, and then picks up precisely when it has to, taking you through all the twists and turns of the aerial stunt, shows the action of the rocketeer flying around. I think it's perfect for this one. You know, our buddy Wayne Whited this is a top three composer for Wayne. Yeah, so I had to reach out to Wayne. Here is what he has to say about James Horner's score. For The Rocketeer. The Rocketeer is one of my favorite films of the nineteen nineties, and, in my opinion,

27:51 one of the best comic to film adaptations ever made. I've been a fan of Dave Stephens's character since his debut back in nineteen eighty two, and was incredibly excited when Disney brought the story to life on the big screen in nineteen ninety one. But I was even more excited when I heard that James Horner would be taking the scoring duties for the film, as many of his more recent scores had been on continuous replay in My Car's Tape Player, like Field of Dreams, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids in especially Glory. James Horner was eager to take on this assignment as he himself was enthusiastic about flying and had been wanting for years to score a film about the subject, so it's no surprise that this score became a favorite of his. Horner wrote three distinct themes for the film, used throughout the score from beginning to end. The first theme is the Rocketeers theme, which is heard most prominently in the opening and closing credits as a rousing and almost innocent full orchestra theme, and then again he used in a darker, more menacing tone in the cues Rendezvous at Griffiths Park and during the big Battle on the Zeppelin. His second theme is Jenny's love theme and in my opinion, is the highlight of the score.

29:07 It's one of the most beautiful pieces of music Horner ever wrote in his career, and is highlighted on this soundtrack album as a concert suite. It's a romantic piece that allows the strings, brass and the woodwinds to shine. The third and final theme that Horner wrote is of course, created for the villain of the film, Nevill Sinclair, which was brilliantly played by Timothy Dalton. It uses a four note motif in the style of the old thirties and forty superhero shots and creates a sinister sounding danger to the character on screen. It can be heard best near the end of the queue Neville Sinclair's House, and again in the Zeppelin, as both this and the Rocketeer theme duel for superiority, mimicking the action as seen on screen. The standout for me is the end credits. Horner was a master of crafting a great end credit cue, and was one of the few composers in Hollywood at the time that still insisted on writing a full composition for his end credits, while most composers gave the job to the music editor to call something together from earlier cues, and in true Horner style, he borrows a bit from an earlier score of his.

30:22 This time it's from Star Trek three, the Search for Spock, nearly note per note to bring it to a conclusion. It's a perfectly crafted suite of his themes, and the whole orchestra brings out the best Horner has to offer one last time before the film phase to black. This score has been released twice on CD. First, on its original release from Hollywood Records back in nineteen ninety one, has fifty seven minutes to music, including two songs heard from the film. Then, in twenty sixteen, Introtto Records released a definitive two CD version of the soundtrack, containing the entire eighty one minute score as heard in the film, as well as a newly remastered version of the nineteen ninety one album on just two It contained over twenty minutes of never before released music from the film and newly remastered or remixed by Sean Murphy from the original Sony forty eight track session masters given to him from Disney. Unfortunately, for all new soundtrack collectors who have just discovered this score, it's now out a print on an unavailable except for the secondary market. But I'm sure that sometime soon one of the labels will bring this score back for everyone to enjoy.

31:33 Once again, Thank you, Wayne. And with that, Scott, I say we take a quick break and when we get back we will talk a little bit about this film's background and production. Welcome back. We are talking about Joe Johnston's the Rocketeer. Scott. You mentioned Dave Stevens earlier. This is a comic book character that he created. I believe he did views in Starslayer in nineteen eighty two. Is that correct? Yeah, Starslayer two and three. It's kind of a side story at the end of the issue. And I actually picked up Starslayer two after seeing this movie. Oh so you have an actual copy of it, because I was thinking like this would be a hard one to find, but nope, not at the time. And I was friends with a guy who ran a comic book store at the time, and I got the poster and the first appearance of the Rocketeer in the same place down there at Queen City Comic and Card in Cincinnati. I absolutely love the look of this character. He's actually I guess Stevens based him off of the nineteen thirty serials King of the Rocketmen, as well as Commando Cody.

32:45 Check out check out these pictures, Scott, Like this is this is our first look at the Rocketeer way back in the thirties. What do you think a little bit too, Buck Rogers in my opinion, like, okay, there's a it was an interesting episode of Tailspin that actually came out around this time where he plays a character called bullet Heead, And that's what I think of when I see Commander Cody. Like the King of the Rocketman, it's a little bit too. It doesn't have personality the way that the Dave Stevens design does. Scott. I think you mentioned in your your synopsis you talk about Steve Miner, who I absolutely love. He's the director of the second and third Friday the Thirteenth films. So Stevens sells the rights to him and after several years of development, he moves on, citing creative differences, which I think worked out for everyone because he chooses to direct the nineteen eighty six Classic House instead of the Rocket. Wow. Right, well it's a good choice. Yeah. Eighty five, Stevens gives two guys, Danny Bilson and Paul Demo, the option to write a screenplay. Absolutely loves what they do because they respect the period setting and their ideas are heartfelt and affectionate.

34:06 They start pitching this at the wrong time that great year. They start pitching this in nineteen eighty six to all the studios. But like you had said, this is before Dick Tracy, this is before Batman. We're kind of in that Superman three era where there hasn't really been any other comic book heroes on the silver screen, and it's because they just don't know how to develop them yet. So yeah, they kind of run out of gas, and it just seems like they're just they're doing serials of the same character, not necessarily digging for new ip or less well known ip. Yeah, and we're doing so makes a big difference. Yeah, And over the next five years, Disney fires and rehires them three separate times. And this stems from Disney's interest in merchandising the picture with an eye on toy sales. So the only reason Disney even signed on is like, hey, we can make some toys out of this, which makes me sad. Yeah, I mean it seems like it's kind of exploiting it, right, And I think you had said that Billy Campbell signed on for three pictures for the three picture deals a series.

35:10 I feel like, even though I don't think it was intentional, they just wanted to stick with one. But I think having this is a one shot is a much better choice than trying to into a cereal interesting. Okay, Well, speaking of quitting, though, Johnston himself had threatened to quit during production because Disney's Michael Eisner, You're not gonna believe this. He doesn't like the He doesn't like the look of the helmet, which is ridiculus. I feel I feel like has like that Iron Man Mark one look to it. Very cool. Yeah, well it looks like something Howard Hughes would design. Yeah, but Eisner wants a NASA styled helmet for the rocketeer. No is wrong. Yeah, he is very wrong, and he Fortunately Johnston had enough credit that when he threatened to quit, they were like, all right, fine, stick with the stick with the old one. Yeah, and I mean he stuck. He stuck to his guns about a lot of choices.

36:06 Yeah. So they saw dollar signs because they saw the chance to make this into toys. And it looks like toy Biz had the rights to the toy line with a couple of different versions of Cliff. It was going to be pretty similar to the Kenner Batman line. They made a lot of prototypes, but it was promptly shut down because I guess they thought it wasn't going to be successful enough of a movie that it wouldn't sell the toys. I think they were wrong. I think if they had made the toys, it probably would have helped with ticket sales. I absolutely it would have. I know. The one thing that that that made it out was like that Bendi figure which looks like something you get, yeah, you know, the one I'm talking about with the wires and you can kind of pose it. Yeah.

36:50 Yeah, it just it looks like something you get at like your local grocery store, as opposed to like toys, you know, Toys r Us or something like that. It was that it wasn't articulated at all. It's terrible makes no sense, especially because toy Bis knows what they knew what they were doing. As far as action figure designed, there's a lot of action features they could have done with that with this property and made a lot with it. They had all these prototypes and they just they at the last minute, like the eleventh hour, Disney just dumped it and said, Nope, we're not doing it. I don't kid it. Yep, i'd be I'd be interested to see if Jerome House of Plastic has ever seen any prototypes pop up from toy biz. That'd be fair. I'm sure. I'm sure he has. As far as merchandising, there's another aspect of it. It's one of my favorite movie posters of all time. And I think you know that the one that I'm talking about. It's over my shoulder. It's the original art book at it. Man, that thing's awesome, designed by John Meadows.

37:45 I think it's it's iconic. It certainly drew me to want to see the movie, but apparently the studio wasn't wild about it because it didn't draw enough attention to the cast, including Timothy Dalton, so they eventually changed the poster to feature all the main characters, but it loses that art deco style, which I think is a shame. It's a shame, and I'm not defending the studio, but I understand their point. You've this is a time when Timothy Dalton, for the for most of the world, they still know that he's James Bond. So to not have his face on the poster, yeah, I get it. I totally get it, because Billy Campbell's not gonna put butts in the seats yet because no one knows who he is.

38:27 And while the rocketeer looks gorgeous, like the design looks just amazing, you need you know, this is nineteen this is nineteen ninety one. We don't have the Internet, we don't have the constant stream of information and behind the scenes set peaks and all that kind of stuff, So you're relying on your stars. You kind of need Timothy Dalton's face on the poster. As far as I'm concerned, I don't like it. I'd prefer the Art deco, but I totally get where the company's coming from on this one. Well, and you've got a very a very good looking leading couple with this, and I think, yes, showing Billy Campbell's face definitely showing Jennifer Connelly's face would put butts in the seats. If that had been the poster I had seen, and I saw Jennifer Connelly, my butt would be in the scene.

39:15 But that's me and you know, to be fair, it's like the redesign that has like the the actors' faces. It's not bad. I mean it's it should be a Dreu Drewsen style poster, but it's not. But it still looks good, you know, I don't. I don't hate it. The one you have on your wall right there, I'm looking at that's the one to have. But right, we got both, right, but we got one. Everybody went one of the main everybody wins. Uh. I'm hoping. I'm hoping we'll keep talking because I'm gonna ask you a question here and if you get the answer wrong, I'm just gonna I'm gonna kill your mic. There's one. There's if there's a pivotal scene in this, tell me what it is. Well, it's got to be the Cliff saving the stunt show as the rocketeer, right, the debt you the debut of the moment, Yes, and keeping with his character, he just wants to save his friend, that's it. Horner's score is is incredible at this moment.

40:19 I don't know about you, but it kind of gives me Superman seventy eight vibes when when Superman goes to save Lewis with the helicopter. Yep, yeah, which we got that real vibe it does, and it's it's it's the aerial choreography. I think that gets it. And you know, you believe that a man could fly in that suit, you know, and obviously in Superman seventy eight we covered in a film. At forty five, we were very fortunate to have guest Aaron Spilensky from that young Clark Kent. Oh yeah, young kal El. If you haven't caught that episode, please go check it out. It's a rare rocker, but it's a good one. I tell you one thing I really love about this moment too. Did you notice that the rocketeer is not exactly smooth in flight. Cliff is still figuring it out. He's still trying to understand the controls, so his his flying's a little erratic, it's a little clunky, it's a little haphazard. I think that works. It lends to the realism of the picture. Yeah, well, I mean it goes back to your Peter Parker connection, you know, especially the Toby Maguire where he's still kind of getting the hang of it, he's not completely fitting into the role, and it connects to him as a stunt pilot as well, because not everything is going to go perfect, but he's making the best of it, doing the best that he can. Absolutely.

41:46 Well, I'll tell you what, Scott. Let's take Let's take one more break and when we get back, we'll talk about Joe Johnston. Welcome back. We're talking talking about Joe Johnston's the Rocketeer, Scott. I love the fact that we were talking about Johnston at the beginning of the hour and you mentioned some of his work at ILM, specifically the Millennium, the Millennium Falcon. I'll let our listeners know he also designed the Iron Giant. Yep, he created the final designs for Yoda and Boba fet, the X Wing Fighters, the at At Walkers, and the Death Star. Yeah. One guy looks one guy is giving us the final concepts for all these iconic things that we grew up with. That's that's amazing to me, all because he saw a flyer that would get him a better commute. Yeah, and speaking speaking of the guy that wrote that flyer, George Lucas, when Joe Johnston decided to leave ILM, you know, you mentioned he had a six week job, right, so his plan when he left ILM was to travel with the money that he saved up. Thankfully, George Lucas convinced him to enroll in USC Film School on the condition that Lucas would pay his tuition. In exchange, he gets to keep Johnston on as a part time employee. That's that's that's an offer you absolutely cannot refuse. No, not at all,

43:19 George, George Lucas is going to get you into a USC film school, He's going to pay your tuition, and he wants to keep you on his on his staff. That's unbelievable, right, sick. Yeah, And is that before or after he did work on nineteen eighty six? Is Howard the duck? I'm just curious what a wise guy? No, No, I want to know, like, was that this is? This is after? This is after his initial work, you know, when he that six week job. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Keep in mind he also another fun fact about this this guy, he does have an Oscar for Best Visual Effects that he shares with Richard Edlund, Kit West and Bruce Nickson for the work they did on Raiders of the Lost Ark. Well deserved, yep, well deserved. And talking about The Rocketeer, he's quoted as saying, I'd love to make a sequel to The Rocketeer. The film didn't do as well at the box office as we all hoped, but it has endured and generated a following. One thing, if I could, if I could just jump back one real quick, just based on his quote, I will tell you this Scott. We mentioned that Billy Campbell and Jennifer Connelly had multi picture deals pinning the success of this film. The Rocketeer open in fourth place behind Robinhood, Prince of Thieves, City Slickers and Dying Young, and ended up doing forty six point seven million dollars on a budget of thirty five million,

44:50 and sadly Disney deemed that a commercial disappointment. So no, No Rocketeer part two. Let's talk about this guy's filmography though. You ready for that? Yeah? So he started as a director for Honey I Shrunk the Kids in eighty nine, right, yeah, nineteen eighty nine, Talk about making a directorial debut Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. Yeah, which was we got to think blockbuster, blockbuster, and you got to think this is a hands on director who has cut his teeth on special effects and model making and storyboarding. I kind of feel like, you know that that lends to the success of this film. Yeah. Well, and it's it's in keeping with the vibe that we got from the Rocketeer, like it's a it's a family movie, but it's not patronizing, it's not talking down to kids. It's something that everybody can enjoy. And one last thing I love about Honey, I Shrunk the Kids. You gotta remember Moranis is not even the first choice to play Selensky. It's John Candy. Yeah, it's John Candy who doesn't want to do it but says, hey, check out my buddy Rick Moranis.

45:59 He'd be perfect for this, and he was Andy's right, obviously. But the irony here is that this is not the first time that John Candy has done this, because if you think back to nineteen eighty four, Rick Moranis plays Lewis Tolly in Ghostbusters. That wasn't his role to begin with. That was John Candy's and Candy didn't want to do it, so they pull in Rick Moranis. Thank you, John Candy. Thank you John Candy for not that he wouldn't have done a good job in both roles. But I think we're better off for having Rick Moranis in those roles. We are, we Are. We've been talking about the Rocketeers. That's his picture in nineteen ninety one, Scott. He does, over the next couple of years do a couple episodes of the Young Indiana Jones Chronicles, which I gotta go back.

46:43 I'd love to go back and see which ones are his, because I've seen the whole series. I love the whole series, and now now I'm ready for that. Yeah. Ninety four he did the live action sequences for that Macaulay Culkin movie, The Page Master. I never saw it. Was it? Did you say it was any good? I didn't see it. No, I don't know. I don't know why, but yeah, I'll tell you what hits everyone. Nineteen ninety five Jumanji. Yeah, and again, so going back to what I said before about Rocketeer being a family movie that doesn't talk down to people. It's something that adults can enjoy with their kids. You get that with Rocketeer, you get that with Honey Asher Kids, and you definitely get it with Jumanji. So I think he's got effected there.

47:29 You know what's amazing about Jumanji is Johnston. It's not that he didn't want to cast Robin Williams, but he was very nervous about Robin Williams taking on the role because Robin Williams has this big reputation for doing improv and Johnston wants to get what's on the page. Cool thing though, is you know Williams, he understands it's got to be a tightly structured story and he kind of plays ball, you know, he think he only does a little bit of improvising, but it's usual with the Bonnie Hunt scenes, just when when you see Robin Williams kind of kind of going off course. Yeah, yeah, that's a that's a fantastic film. I never would have thought it would have moved in the direction it has, you know, with the Rock taken over, that whole franchise. But those movies are good too, They're they're fun. I think those movies are fantastic. Yeah, I love them.

48:23 Uh, what'd you think nineteen ninety nine, he does October Sky with Tobey Maguire. Did you ever check that one out? That one I did not catch. I feel like I should have, but I have. It's a fun it's a it's a feel good movie. Uh, he's a Maguire's playing Homer him Hickam. I think it's Hicckham. You know cole Miner's son. Uh, you know he sees spot Nick launch and he wants to talk rockets, you know, take up building rockets, even though his dad's a farmer. He doesn't want him to do it. Yeah, sos from you know, he's still you know, John's still got the rocket blood in him. You know, we're not getting Rocketeer sequel, so we'll just we'll go to October Sky. You at least get rockets. You at least get rockets.

49:09 I thought he was a great choice for the Jurassic Park franchise. He's in two thousand and one. He does Jurassic Park three. This one. So here's the thing I feel like after a Jurassic Park two was a little bit of a letdown, that's fair to say. Yeah, look, he gets he gets the band back together. He's got Sam Neil back. He's got uh, doctor m Malcolm, Jeff Goldbloom is back. Everyone, everyone's showing up, right, So I don't understand, Like, why why didn't this movie do as good as it did well? Wasn't this the one with the talking raptors? I don't remember talking raptors. There's a there's a scene where he has a dream, he has a dream sequence on the plane and there's a raptor that talks to him and awakes m Ovens, says Alan, And it's just a little bit. But maybe that's why I didn't do you know what? And I got a backtrack here. It's not Jeff Goldbloom, it's way mah Macy, that's right. But Sam Neil is definitely back. That's what it was. The second one had Jeff Goldbloom, but you didn't have you didn't have Sam Neil, and you didn't have Laura durn. Yeah.

50:20 Third time they're like, well, right, bring Sam back, but we don't bring the other two backs. So yeah, you know, the more we talk about it, the more I'm starting to realized why it didn't maybe do as well as we thought it would do. To another one. Uh, I'll be fair, I haven't seen this one two thousand and four Hidalgo with a Vigo Mortensten not that have I It's just I don't know, it's just horse racing around the world or whatever it was. It just didn't didn't appeal to me. Honestly, I don't think I got past the poster on this one. Let's move on. Let's move on, because twenty ten I absolutely loved his take on The wolf Man. Did you see that one? Yes? Very original? Did you transformation scenes in there? Now? Did you? Did you watch the director's cut, which is the superior version, or did you watch the theatrical? Theatrical? Okay, interested to see the director's cut, check out the director's cut because it answers so much more.

51:14 This is a fantastic film, though it's it's period piece wolf Man Story two, so that right there. Again. I feel like if you need to do a period film, whether it's an adventure story or horror story, Joe Johnson should be on. He should be the first person you call, right, Yeah, well, I mean it taps into the universal monster roots. It makes the lun Cheney design menacing. Yeah right, But ni Cil del Toro is fantastic playing the younger Talbot. You got Anthony Hopkins, Emily Blunt. That film is fantastic. It's it's definitely a you know when I'm in the Werewolf cycle of my my horror watching in October. Yep, that's that's definitely on the list. Scott. We can't talk period films without his next one, twenty eleven, he does Captain America The First Avenger. Yeah.

52:07 Now, this is probably the Joe Johnson movie that I've probably seen the most. This one I have on heavy rotation. I think it's it's one that I'm kind of bothered whenever I hear that people aren't wild about it, because I think it was absolutely perfect for a first outing with Cat. I can't that's funny you say that. I've not heard anyone down on Captain America the First Adventer M and I think they're I would have to disagree with them if they were. This is a fantastic This is one of the better films in the MCU. This say, as far as I'm a specific tone for the MCU, well, that set it in the right direction, like it sets it in the run of Rodgers. We don't have the MCU we have today.

52:52 I think the great thing here too, is that Dizney knows what they've got to do and all the and despite all the disputes that they had with Joe Johnston during The Rocketeer, he gets this job because of the Rocketeer. The suits are smart enough to go, hey, look what he did for the Rocketeer. This is this is what we want. This is the aesthetic that we want. Kevin Feige wants captain America in this timeline with this kind of heart. You gotta call Johnston first Avenger is fantastic. Scott twenty fourteen. I got some homework to do because I want to see this movie. He does one called Not Safe for Work. Yeah, this sounds like a fascinating premise. So apparently it's an office worker trapped inside a building where a killer is on the loose. That is a fascinating concept. And I don't know why this didn't hit my radar. Well, okay, so in the interest of fairness, I just feel this definitely feels like an independent film.

53:52 I'm looking at the cast list, I don't recognize anybody, so it's definitely I don't know if this was like a this was made straight for like Netflix or Hulu or something like that. But but man, this the premise sounds good, and I think we gotta check it out. Yeah, I mean there is one space that I recognize, Molly Hagen, who I remember from Herman's Head that was kind of a random Wow TV show back in the day, The Deepest of Cuts Herman's I've seen her on plenty of things, and I think she always does a great job. So that's one reason that I'd be deviting into this. All right, Yeah, I'm definitely gonna check this one out. Not Safe for work. Year later, twenty fifteen, he does a TV movie called Lumen twenty eighteen. Scott, You've got children?

54:45 What can you tell me about the Nutcracker and the Four Realms? I can tell you that I haven't seen it. I can tell you that this is not something that would ever hit my cue. But it does have Morgan Freeman and Helen Mirren in it, so maybe we need to you take another look at it. Possibly, Okay, okay, fair enough, fair enough. I bet I bet Amber Lewis can tell me about this one. I think she's a she's a fan of the Nutcracker, so that's all right, Amber, Well, I'll be calling you here in a minute, Scott, you would talk about what is coming up next for Joe Johnston. Yeah. So the first one that I know about is Chronicles of Narnia the Silver Chair. Okay, it sounds like that's in development with him in the director's chair.

55:29 Again. This is the one for Netflix, right, I believe, so, yeah, yeah, yeah, I think we're a ways off from the Chronicles of Narnia, but that that could be good. What I'm really excited about he's in pre production on Shrunk and yes, this is the sequel to Honey I Shrunk the Kids. Like I know, we've had a couple, but apparently this time it is one of the kids that's doing the shrinking that he's an adult because Rick moranis is back. But we also got Josh Gad, who let's tell you right now I'm not a fan of. But yeah, but we've got Rick Morana's back. I mean, yeah, here, yeah, yeah, Josh Gadd's playing his son Nick. But uh, but but Rick is back. So as long as we've got I'm just worried it's gonna be like a glorified cameo. I want Rick moranis in the movie.

56:22 I just don't want like a a glorified cameo, if that's if that's fair to say, I hope you're right, and I would think that with the pull of Joe Johnston in the director's chair, Yeah, it would be a crime to have Rick just be a cameo. And I feel like that's the kind of Joe is the kind of a person that could pull Rick out of retirement for a little more, a little bit more than a cameo, I think. So. The Rocketeer currently streaming on Disney Plus. Is this where you watched it? Scott Yep, yep. Although I've got a copy on DVD. It's not quite like a criterion collection kind of thing, but it's in the collection justin I'd love to see this. I'd love to get a four K blu ray of this if it's if it's available, because I want to audio commentary. I want I want all the behind the scenes stuff, the extras, you know, you know, definitely went behind the scenes.

57:09 Yeah. Yeah, Well, I think this one's fantastic. Uh. I'm sad that it wasn't as successful at the box office, but I'm glad it it is underrated enough that we could we had the opportunity to talk about this, uh, this fourth of July holiday. So yeah, and I mean, you know, it speaks to how well it's held up. The people are still watching it and talking about it. I know, it's had a couple of follow up series that have come after it, and it's it just it just talks to the the quality of the movie. Listeners, what do you think of the Rocketeer? You can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, x. You can check out a film by podcast dot com for all of our episodes that are streaming free on the platform of your choice. You can write to us at a film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your question, comments, and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some of my film by swag. Join us tomorrow for the return of our Star Trek themed series Basers Set to stun Scott. It's been a couple of weeks. What do you guys got in store for us? Wayne and I are going to be talking about a twenty eighteen documentary called What We Left Behind Looking Back at Star Trek Deep Space nine. That's going to be a great conversation and a great primer for when we eventually cover that in Starter Treks. Well, let me speak for a lot of our star trek loving listeners, happy that you guys are back in Back on the Bridge. On Friday, our limited series nineteen

58:40 ninety six returns with our friend Jason Colvin. We're going to discuss the biggest film of that year, and it's the perfect week to do it, talking about Independence Day. That'll be fantastic. Jason's always a great guest. And next time on a film by Amber Lewis, will talk swords fantasy and Matthew Broderick when we talk about a film by Richard Donner. To all of you listening every week, hitting those like and follow buttons and subscribing to our Patreon, we thank you.