Michael Mann - Collateral

0:00 Anytime a film has a charismatic assassin, I am all in so considering characters like John Wick, Agent forty seven, Leon, Vincent Vega and Jules Winfield, or even Anton Segur. Who is your go to hit man? My go to hit man, It's gotta be Vincent Los Angeles Collateral. But I do have a couple of backups. I will say Lafemni Kita the original, not the Bridget Fonder remake, but ultimately the best assassin movie in my opinion, Terminator.

0:51 That's an interesting that's an interesting answer. I will say this, I think Vincent has got to be in the conversation. So let's talk about a film by Michael Mann, his two thousand and four neo noir action thriller Collateral. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson, and this is a film by podcast.

1:41 Eric Dirth is with us. He's a recurring voice on the docum based seventy seven podcast. We've done a few episodes over there together, most recently the April Fool's Day episode where I hijack Daton Show and covered Whitney Houston's debut album of all Time. I don't think anyone expected that, did they? Eric no, they didn't. It was a real heel turn I think for the podcast industry. Well, you know, I had such a great time. I know, I know. Liam Lewis was with us. We had a we had a great conversation. I invited you guys to stop by the film by studio, and I think it was like a day later you messaged me asking if we could do Michael Mann's Collateral. So tell me why why this movie was your first shot.

2:35 I am a Tom Cruise fan, but I'm not the over the top Tom Cruise fan. I like some of his films that may be considered a little bit more questionable. I liked Vanilla Sky, I liked Tropic Thunder, but I also liked when he plays a role where he is not hanging off the side of the Burke Khalifa or dangling from an airplane. I saw this movie in the theater in two thousand and four when it came out, and this was before Tom Cruise was you know, air quote Tom Cruise, but I loved the There's a term in the industry it's called a bottle episode, and I loved it because it was basically a bottle episode. It was two people in a cab and the whole movie hinged on the relationship between the person in the back seat and the person in the front seat, and they made it work so well. And I've heard and I agree with other people who say this film starts in the third act. It starts in the third act. You don't get built up. So in the very beginning of this film, a dead body falls on the cab. Boom, We're done with act one, We're done with that two, we are now to act three. What are we gonna do to resolve the film? And it doesn't stop from there.

4:07 The film starts out balls to the wall, and it never stops until will last minute. I'm gonna agree with you. It's maybe not a build up, but there's certainly tension leading up to the third act. As far as Show and Tell listeners, I'm gonn tell you right now. I don't know if we'll get video on this episode. But Eric, through the through the magic of zoom backgrounds and camera trickery, I'm seeing Eric. He is in he's wearing the the Tom Cruise suit, he's got the sunglass song, he's in the back of the cab. Uh. It's just fantastic. Eric, You do this. I know we what we did. We've done some docu bay episodes. You always come like, you know, like like it's a stage show.

4:55 I appreciate your. You know, I know most people don't see the videos, but I I've tried in every episode I've ever been on to bring a little character to the podcast. A little bit about Michael Mann, a few facts and a quote. This one blows my mind. In nineteen eighty five, he sued William Freedkin for plagiarism, claiming that the director had stole his entire concept of Miami Vice to make the film To Live and Die in La, which coincidentally is celebrating its fortieth anniversary. We were thinking, actually we've been batting out one around wondering if we're going to cover it or not. But you know, knowing this, I kind of definitely want to put it on the calendar if we could fit it in. But he does wind up losing the lawsuit, but ends up becoming close friends with William Freakin after the fact and Eric. The irony here is that William Peterson stars in To Live and Die in La, and then a year later he stars at Manhunter for Michael Mann.

5:58 And Michael Mann a very distinguished history, which uh I heard when I do my research for the podcast. I actually go to other podcasts and I listened to what they say. And there was a debate about heat versus collateral. Okay, that collateral. Was heat in a taxi cab. Interesting and I've you know that that may tie into something I'm gonna talk about later, but I'm gonna kick it down the road for now. More on Michael mannon known for giving a thumbs up when he feels which take is the one, And I gotta tell you there's some great behind the scenes stuff on Collateral. Jimmy Fox talks about how he was just sweating it. He's putting in all this effort and he's just waiting. He's like the corner of his eye, he's looking at Michael Man hoping for that thumbs up, and he said, when you get it, it's just a relief just cascades over you.

7:05 I like when directors have like their own little language, like I know Clint doesn't. He never yells cut, he just says enough of that shit. I just I like when their personality kind of leads into their their their style of working. All right, I'm gonna do this. I don't typically do this, but a little fun thing here Michael Mann's top ten favorite films. Eric, I look at the list. I know you've seen, got it. You have to have a least seen half of them. I know I have. There's a couple on here that I now want to see based on his recommendation. But here's Michael Mann's top ten favorite films. Apocalypse Now, Avatar, Battleship, Tomentican, Beautiful, Citizen Kane, Doctor Strangelove, My Darling, Clementine, The Passion of Joan, Arc, Raging Bull, and last, but certain not least, The Wild Bunch.

8:02 That's a it's a pretty impressive list. I gotta be honest. Okay, So that's Michael Mann's like favorite film list. That's if you ask Michael Mann, what's your top ten favorite movies, that's the ten that he's gonna give you. So damn, Jeff, you went down the rabbit hole on this one. I did not know that. Yeah, quote from Michael Mann, and he's talking about seeing movies in the cinema. And I know this is an ongoing debate lately ever since COVID, Like you know, theater, there's a lot of theaters that are struggling to just stay open. Michael Mann says, quote a sixty five foot wide screen and five hundred people reacting to the movie.

8:46 There is nothing like that experience. I'm inclined to agree with him. When you see the right movie in a packed house and you get that that communal experience where you're you're all gas being at the same thrill, you're all cheering for the same hero, you're all laughing at the same joke. That is a wonderful experience, especially when you're with a crowd that's there to experience the film. And I'm not talking about people on their cell phones or people talking or leaning. Oh I hate that. You have a great a great audience and you're involved in that. I agree with him, there's nothing like that.

9:27 It's it's it's a it's a wonderful experience. And and to tie in with our conversation tonight about Tom Cruise and Collateral, the first film I ever saw in the theater after COVID was Top Gun, Maverick, There you go, Imax. Well, Tom Cruise was was credited with saving the movie cinema industry, and you know, with with Maverick, and I agree with that. I absolutely agree with that. Let's talk a little bit about collateral, Eric. I know there's people out there that have not seen this one, and I know there's people out there that have seen it, but it's probably been a while and maybe need a refresher.

10:08 So in your own words, what's Collateral about. It's funny that you should ask that, because I've watched this film several times, and just last evening I was with my girlfriend Tina, who was a few years under the meat, who had never seen it, and I wanted to have a last minute rewatch, and she was glued to the screen. It is about a disassociated kind of sociopath who is a hitman for money, who is in Los Angeles for the evening to complete a series of jobs, and he hires a cab driver, an unsuspecting cab driver to drive him around throughout the evening while he commits these crimes, and none would be the wiser until everything flies off the rails in the first twenty minutes of the film. It is a psychological thriller but also an action thriller, but not in the way that you would think Tom Cruise jumping off of buildings, diving out of planes.

11:21 He plays a very thoughtful, down to earth manipulative I'm looking out for every aspect of what is going on character, and you never expect what's coming in the next scene until it comes. And then the very first time I saw this, I saw this in the theater and I never saw what came at the end until it came at the end. If you like a good mystery without crazy, over the top explosions and car chases, then I think this is a good film for you. If you like a go to assassination movie, and again we're talking about like Jean Reno, the Professional fem Nikita, even Terminator, I think this is a film for you. It's two thousand and four, it's an older film, but you really should look it up. I think it's good.

12:18 This is This is a darker film for Cruise. He's paying he's not playing the hero. He made no mistake, he's the villain. But he has got so much charisma and he has so much passion you have to follow him. Like throughout throughout the movie, you're like, you're rooting for Jimmy Fox obviously, but there's times I'm rooting for Tom Cruise. I'm rooting against Joel Fox. Jeff, I agree with you. And if I could go back and pretend that I never saw this movie before and I was watching it for the first time, I would actually start to sympathize with Tom Cruise. I would sympathize with Vincent. I would sympathize with what he was doing because he was hired to do a job, and let's face it, the people that he was going after were probably not the best, you know, people in the world.

13:10 But then he shoots Mark Ruffalo Detective Fanning, and then you have to say, oh, man, I. Was just you have to choose a side. I was just rooting for you, Tom, and then you shot a cop. Yeah you did. We talked about the opening and you know, like you said, it goes off the rails. Everything would have been fine, except the first guy he goes after takes a two story header out the window, lands on top of the cab. Yep. And now these guys are forced to work together transparently, and that's YEP. I think this movie. Think about this. If Jamie Fox is driving him along none the wiser through like even half this movie, it's gonna play more like a Hitchcock film where we the audience know the danger, we know the suspense, know what's wrong, but the character that we're riding along with has no clue, and so we're just it's it creates tension, right, and that would have worked great. But the fact that Jamie Fox his eyes are opened his character Max, his eyes are opened immediately to what his situation is. Now it becomes a cat and mouse thriller, and it's like how long can can Max last? How long before he gets away? How long before he takes a stand?

14:30 Right? So I love the dynamic that these two guys have. And speaking of dynamic, before we get too far away from it, I'm gonna ask you your opinion. Eric film opens, Tom Cruise's Vincent character in the Airport meets up with what has to be Jason Statham's Frank character from two thousand and twos of The Transporter. Do you believe that we've got a little bit of a cross pollination here, because if you ask the films, if you ask that film's director, Lewis Leterrier, he'll tell you that he's Stathan's playing Frank. What do you think your thoughts? I've heard this rumor and Michael Mann will argue differently.

15:10 But when you look at Jason Stepham and the way he acts and the way he speaks, and the way he stands, the way he's dressed, the way he's dressed, and how brief the interaction is they bump into each other, they drop the briefcase. Oh sorry, mate, let me get that for you and I. In contrary to a lot of Internet opinion, I think that, yes, that Collateral and Transporter exist in the same universe. I'm calling it Jason Statham's Frank character. This is two thousand and two. I'm sorry, this is two thousand and four. I think he's in town. But this is way after that character.

15:51 This is two years. Yeah, it's two years after the Transporter, right, I think. But after you think off all the things that happen in the Transporter, I think maybe he's he's in a just to lay low. Absolutely, yeah, he's done with his life. He's just basically a facilitator between bad guys. He's not driving a car, he's dropping briefcases. But no, I agree with you. I think they exist him the same one like it. It's fun, you know, I think fun. It's a fun thing. We're gonna take a quick break and when we get back, we're gonna talk a little bit about the cast. Welcome back. Eric Dirth from the Docking Base seventy seven podcast is with us today discussing Michael Mann's collateral. So Tom Cruise as Vincent, he is regularly meeting with Michael Mann before shooting to flesh out the character's background. And when I say flesh out the characters background, Eric, he like Tom Cruise is, he's all smiles as he's sharing this story, and he's he's talking about how Michael Man is excited to tell him all about what Vincent was like at age eleven. He's his silver fox look, the clothes, the gray hair, that sculpted scruff, five o'clock shadow, scruff he's got.

17:07 Michael Mann knows every inch of this character. He knows every moment in the character's life. And they're just having conversations. They're meeting up here and there, having conversations building this man from the inside out. And I love that kind of commitment to a role because we know Tom Cruise is no stranger to you know, if you're gonna be in a you know, if you're gonna do top gun Maverick, Well, let's learn how to fly at F fourteen. If you're gonna, you know, be Ethan Hunt, Let's learn how to mountain climb and jump off buildings. He the guy commits, right, we know that. Prepping for this role, he spends three months working with a retired SAS soldier, learning close quarter combat, learning firearms. And this one blows my mind. I don't know if you know this one. Eric, you did a lot of I know you did a lot of research, and you're you're a big fan of this movie.

17:57 You're about to say the UPS Driver. Yeah, okay, so FedEx, so tell this story? Was you know the story? Tell it? Yeah? So Michael Mann wanted Tom Cruise to learn how to be the every guy, the every man to blend into a situation invisible, right, be invisible? So they I believe it was the UPS because I saw the documentary and he's in the brown outfit. And so for two weeks, Tom Cruise literally went Undercrever as a UPS delivery driver. Was he wearing brown? He was wearing the brown uniform. He was wearing the brown nif. He goes under Trever as a delivery driver and only about two or three people that he ever delivered a package to knew who he was. But for three weeks he worked as a delivery driver.

18:49 Eric, how many people are opening the door to get a package? No, most people don't do that, But this is two thousand, this is like early two thousand. How many people are walking past him as he comes up to the yard or the door. How many people are signing that little that little electronic gizmo and then closing the door thinking, damn, that guy kind of looks like Tom Cruise. I mean, obviously it's not Tom Cruise, but that guy looks like Tom Cruise. Like, how many people had that thought? You gotta wonder from from what I heard, he did more business delivery than personal delivery. He was delivering the businesses in and out. Nobody pays him a bit of attention.

19:30 It's amazing, It's absolutely amazing. Yeah, and this is just it's it's a fun role. This is one of my favorite Tom Cruise roles. Honestly, I'm glad. I'm glad that you you you you suggested this one because he just never plays the bad guy. No, he does, rarely, Rarely he plays the bad guy. He's played it and correct me if I'm wrong. But I think he's played the quote unquote villain three times Taps Interview with a Vampire, which you could argue whether or not he was the villain. He's in that movie in Taps he was the villain. Yeah, And interestingly enough, he's only died in two movies, tap Well and Collateral.

20:13 Yeah. Well, you know, if you, if you, if you're gonna go credit, because if you're going uncredited, let's not forget. He was one of the Murphy Men and young Guns. Oh, yes he was. He fell off Charlie. Charlie shoots him, he falls off the roof. Yeah, all right, so he died three times. But but it's rare. And I'll argue this is the best Tom Cruise death scene in a movie. We'll get it's one of the best death scenes in any movie. Okay, we'll get to it. We'll get to it. So Jamie Fox playing Max. Now Tom Cruise is off doing close quarter combat weapons training. Michael Mann spending just the same amount of time with with Jamie Fox, only they are on the race track because he's got Jamie in a Ford Crown Victoria learning the weight in the field of the car doing maneuverability doing and we're talking like high speed maneuverability, you know. And again back to the some of the behind the scenes stuff, seeing Jamie Fox dressed like Cold Trickle from Days of Thunder. He's got the helmet on, he's got the he's got the suit, you know, the the uniform, the NASCAR stuff, and then he hops in this beat up Crown Victoria, you know, which is gonna be what what they use for the cabs in this field in this film. But he is tearing it up on the racetrack and he's having a he's having a lot of fun. He's moonlighting with real cab drivers to better understand their lifestyle, their work, what guys that you know work the graveyard shift are all about.

21:43 And it pays off. He's nominated for Best Supporting Actor at the seventy seventh Academy Awards, loses to Morgan Freeman, who won for a Million Dollar Baby. But we're not gonna feel bad for Jamie Fox because later that night he wins Best Actor for Ray. So heck of a night, you know, for for Jimmy Fox. Uh, tell me, tell me, tell me about tell me about Max, because you're rooting for him half through most. Of it, right in the beginning. I don't know that I was rooting for him in the beginning, because he has this idea Island Limo. It's gonna be the best Limo, the cool ride. You're gonna want to get in, You're never gonna want to get out. I gotta get my leases up, I gotta get the benz is off, you know.

22:27 And and Vincent from the very beginning that he gets in that cab, he's sizing Max up. He says, Oh, well, how long you've been doing this all? It is just temporary, man, It's just temporary til I get my benses off leases. How long you've been doing this? Twelve years? So this is this is kind of an every man you can there are so many people that can relate to Max. There are very few people, I hope, very few people that could relate to Vincent, But everybody can late to Max. You've got a dream, You've got an idea. And even Vincent tells him, he's like, you know, one day you wake up and you're old and it never happened. Max is a guy who's incredibly smart. From the very beginning of the film, when Jada Pinkett Smith comes into that cab and he immediately sizes her up in thirty seconds.

23:24 You're an attorney. You know, you've got the pinstripe suit. It's not bold, but it's not subtle. And he's like, and you're bad of bout data. I mean, he he is a smart guy. He's worldly. He knows he knows style, he knows fashion. If he could just get off his ass and get a little bit of money, he could be running the cab company. I think you're right. A lot of people can identify with Max, but not in the way they want to identify with him, because he he's a procrastinator. He is you know, he he's gonna rather than act, he's gonna, he's gonna, he's gonna react. And that's that's one of the things that I I think helps his character because his character has it goes to a little bit of growth here, he's gonna become you know, he's better for having had Vincent.

24:16 We have to read yeah, oh yeah, he he Vincent pushes him over the edge in a good way. Yeah. He Vincent challenges him and makes him a better individual, not just you know, at at going after what you want, but just being a better son, being a better person, you know, And we'll get we'll get into that. But uh, you mentioned Jada Pinkett Smith. She's playing the attorney Annie. Real quick before we talk about her. We always, we always have the suspension of disbelief in a in a film. You have to, you have to, you have to give, you have to, you have to compromise on some things. How are you with the unbelievable coincidence that his fare is the last name on Vincent's hit list moments before Vincent approaches his cab, I mean, are you okay with it?

25:14 Do you look past it? I actually don't think it's fate or a lot of people. I've heard stories online that where they say Vincent targeted Max because Annie was his last fare and he was going to try to get inside information. I don't think Vincent knew who his targets were until they each came up on his pad. And there's a scene where he's coming down the escalator as Annie is coming in the building, and she's coming and they pass and they never even look at each other. He didn't know anything about her.

25:56 But I'm not buying that theory because he even leans in to you know, you know, checking well now I'm talking. Even before that, he leans in, you know, to see like is this cab is it on is you know, is he is he on duty? Max is kind of in his own world. He's you know, he's not hearing and Vince Vincent tumkers is. Vincent starts to walk away. There's there's a line of cabs. He's gonna go get the other one and well, hey, well I'm sorry, I'm sorry I heard I did hear you? Oh yeah, come on, come on. You know. So the idea that he's he's targeting Max, I. Don't believe that for a minute. But a minute. The minute Vincent gets in that cab, he's sizing Max up.

26:39 He's asking, is this your cab? How much do you pull down a night? Do you share this with the day driver? Blah blah blah. I have some other theories that I don't know if we're actually planned in the film, but I have some theories about a background plot where Mark Ruffalo's character said, yeah up, then Oakland, we had the same thing. A cabby went around all night and shot a bunch of people and then shot himself. You remember, do you remember that background plot. No, Mark Ruffalo's character Detective fan Oh. Wait you're talking Wait, I thought youre talking about a different movie.

27:19 Okay, No, in this movie, in this character, Detective Fanning knew of another case that happened up north where a cab driver supposedly drove around and shot five people and then killed himself, and they always thought another person was in the cab. So I have a little bit of a theory about that. We can come back to you later at the end. Yah. Yeah, So I get yeah, because uh, you know, I want to move us along. But there, you know, just back to Jada Pikett Smith and then you know two other people I want to briefly touch upon again. It's it's the the preparation that Michael Mann puts into his films.

28:00 Even someone like Jada Pinkett Smith's character, who has a very limited amount of screen time, you know, she makes a really she has to make a really good impression for us because we were with her for five minutes and then the whole movie happens, and then she shows up in the last ten minutes. So we have to identify with her, we have to like her, we have to appreciate her. He has her meet a female attorney who's going to help her build the character and give her the confidence even the story, the story that she mentions where she's like, I get sick to my stomach and i feel like I'm going to fail. And I'm still excited about, you know, walking into the courtroom. But I've got all these this anxiety that's real stuff that this other attorney told her. This is how she copes with it. He also has her spend the day with an older couple. That man tells her what ideally have been her character's parents, just to find out what kind of how how Annie was raised and how what kind of woman she is and how you know, what kind of value she was taught. This is this is like next level prep. And I'll be honest, like, just to hear all the actors talk about this stuff. They're talking about with the biggest smiles on their faces, and they're excited to share these stories. And I don't think that happens enough on uh, in the in the filmmaking process nowadays.

29:23 Well, to talk about background character information, there are some actors and the directors will give them the background and says this is the reason why your character does this and they say, you know what, I want to paycheck, I'll hit my mark whatever. But there's also more background with Tom Cruise. Michael Mann gave Tom Cruise Vincent's background. There's a there's a scene in the cab where Max and Vincent are talking about Vincent's father and he said, oh, I killed him, and then he said no, he wasn't around. He was an absentee father. He drank and he died of liver disease and I never really he knew him, which is incredibly close to actually Tom Cruise's background. He didn't really know his father. He moved around a lot.

30:10 You know. Tom Cruise is sort of a Cincinnati, Ohio native, and he didn't know his father. There was a strange relationship there, and I wonder if maybe Michael Mann didn't build on that to give Tom Cruise something to channel while he was playing Vince. I think he was kidding when he told Match that he killed his father, but I actually believe him when he said he died of liver disease and he didn't care. But he's always looking for his dad's approval. You mentioned Mark Ruffalo as Detective Fanning. So Val Kilmer is cast in the role. You know, he worked with Man on Heat, but then he dropped out to work with Oliver Stone on Alexander, and this leaves the role open for Mark Ruffalo. So here's here's my here's my uh, here's my thought. First off, hot my hot take Ruffalo bit he'd bit of an overactor, hotter take not the best Bruce Banner Hulk and uh, you know, I but I'm gonna say this, you know, because I'm not down on Mark Ruffalo. This is my favorite Mark Ruffalo performance because he always plays like a dopey, you know, smart but not altogether guy. And this is a slick, mean looking Mark Ruffalo. He's got the hair slick back, he's in the leather jacket, he's got the ear ring. Yeah, he's he is the cool police detective. He's the cool cop.

31:42 And you have to remember this is my a Michael Man movie, so every cop is gonna be super cool, right, I mean, Michael Mann cops have this. I would say that they're ambiguously good because obviously they're good guys. They're they're you know, they're on the side of the law. They're they're chasing down the bad guys, but they're also flawed individuals and they make questionable judge decisions. You know, they're not the nicest guys, but they're damn if they're not the cool like some of the coolest guys, Like you know, whether it's whether it's Mark Ruffalo and Pete Berg in this movie, or it's it's al Pacino uh and Heat with his crew, or or William Peterson and Manhunter.

32:28 Like the cops are always super cool, Miami Vice obviously, Michael Man. You know, the cops are always really cool. They're always slick, and Mark Ruffalo is anything if not the slickest in this movie. He's the one that actually figures out the whole scheme. He's the one that realizes that Max is just a patsy and the FBI is involved, and it's a huge police investigation with pietersres Cortes and it's Fanning. It's it's Mark Ruffalo who figures out this poor Cabby is is gonna end. Up dead when when he when Ruffalo's character is in the morgue, he's looking at the bodies, Yeah, the you know the corners, like, hey, I think we got a same guy. Look this guy's double taps in their mouth is Sam Beek Mozambia.

33:22 Yeah. I love when cops are kind of putting it all together. You know, they're having the epiphany and then they gotta they got a clue in the You're they're you're always gonna wake up your your partner. You know what time it is. It's you know, Mark Ruffalo. He's the cop that you know. He's he's Pacino and he he's never sleeping. It's it's three o'clock in the morning, and he's on the he's on the scene. And then he's got the partner who's always gonna be at home, family man, dragging him, dragging his ass out of bed. I love when cops are putting together Ruffalo. Like I said, I I might not love everything he does, but I think he's sensational in this film. I absolutely agree with you one hundred percent, Jeff. I think that he played that character who had been invested in these witnesses. He cultivated those people. They were his cis.

34:17 He knew what was going on, and the minute one or two of them showed up dead, he knew exactly what was happening before anybody else did. And nobody would listen to him. He's the smart guy in the room that nobody else listened to. Yeah, one more character I want to briefly talk about. You name dropped the character already talking about an established actor who's got critical acclaim and an Oscar nomination for Best Actor for two thousands before Nightfalls, and yet he's virtually unknown in Hollywood at this time. JAVIERD. Bartam playing the crime lord Felix, making his Hollywood debut with the briefest of appearances in this film. He's the guy that hires Tom Cruise as Vincent. Yeah, and uh, you know, I just will I'm gonna put a pin in him because there his scene. I definitely want to talk about when we when we're talking about notable scenes here in a few minutes. But I gotta be honest, it's been been a while since I've seen this movie, and we've kind of been up on Harvey R. Bartam lately. You know, we we did our Patreon we did a ten for two on No Country for Old Men. You know, he's he's kind of having a moment lately. He's he's he's a well known established actor. Now Hollywood knows him and to see him as such a small role in a two thousand and four Michael Mann movie really surprised me.

35:45 Well, there's a saying there are no small roles, only small actors, and he is not a small actor. I like that. I like that. So a little bit of background about Collateral. Screenwriter Stuart Beatty came up with the idea for the film after taking a taxi cab home from the airport. You know this, Eric, Yeah, in Sydney, Australia. He Stuart Beatty when taking a flight home in Australia. He was in the back of a taxi cab and he was coming home from the Sydney airport and he just had this random thought, Wow, I could be a maniac. I could be a serial killer. I could be a crazy person and the driver in front of me would never know.

36:35 And so he started writing this film. But initially the pitch that he came up with wasn't called Collateral. I think he wanted to call it The Last Domino. Okay, yeah, two page treatment, right, yeah, And if we're going to go back to casting. When he originally came up with this idea, he wanted Russell Crowe to be Vincent and here's the big surprise. Adam Sandler to be Max. So he's got this two page treatment. Yeah. He gives it to producer Julie Richardson, who then shares it with Frank Drebant because she's basically shopping for movies for Frank Dearbat to direct. They love it. They set up a pitch meeting at HBO. HBO says no thanks, so it gets bought by DreamWorks, where it collects dust for three years. Now. You were talking about Russell Crowe and Adam Sandler. This is at a time when Mimi Letter is attached to direct it, and Russell Crowe is loving the script, but he's also loving the idea of his buddy Michael Mann directing it because they had worked up together on The Insider. So he brings Michael Mann on board. The production gets delayed several times. Russell Crowe says, all right, I'm out, Like you know, I can't I can't wait. He moves on. So Man has been wanting to work with Tom Cruise. He calls Tom Cruise in

38:07 and while this is happening, Sandler drops out because he's got a scheduling conflict with the movie Spanglish. So Jamie Fox takes the role, who is a Michael Man favorite. He loves him from his in Living. Color days Ali, I think, right, yeah, and he worked. Yeah, he he like you know he he discovers him on in Living Color. He thinks he's a great, great actor, He's got great timing. He brings him in to Ali, but he's always in his his willhouse. He's always thinking how can I how can I work with Jamie again? And it's it's a better film for this. I'm not saying like Russell Crow would have been a great vincent, but this is the Tom Cruise role that we've been waiting for, So I'm kind of glad how it all worked out. Moving on the visuals in this movie, the look I mean this the city is a character and Eric, I don't know how much time you've spent in Los Angeles, but they really capture that that night life, that La night scene I have.

39:01 I have been out in La a few times, mostly up North Van Nuys where ILM started, but yeah, I spent some time downtown. I've been to the Mayan Club where incidentally they filmed The Bodyguard. We talked about that with these plays yeah. Yeah. So the look of this film is thanks to the Viper film Stream high Definition camera, which Man elected to use. And it's the first time it's using a major motion picture digital Yep, it's a digital camera. And you know, we're used to it now. You know, it's been twenty plus years. We know that film grain look is gone, right, but this was the first movie to give us, you know, the kind of usher in this digital era.

39:52 And one of the things that Michael Mann did when he was filming this, when he was scouting locations is he didn't want to use He didn't want to be cliched. He didn't want to go to a sunsets trip. He didn't want to go to Rodeo Drive, you know, he didn't want to do all those places. So he went to Korea Town. He went to those places that nobody ever films in Los Angeles. And when you listen to the dialogue when Max gets pulled over after he hits the deer, he's like, yeah, I was over on Slager. He's like, oh, a South central deer and yeah. You listen to all those references when he's telling Annie in the beginning, I'll I'll take the four to ten of the way. That's all real. I mean, he Michael mal he, Michael Mann researched that and every street name that he mentions in this film is legit that would match up to what's going on in the movie. That's that's his commitment to that.

40:46 Yeah. Well, I mean, and you know, I've got friends that live in Los Angeles, and even talking with them, they're like, you know, they found themselves arguing like, well, hold on, hold on, she's right and he's right. That's that's the road to take. No, no, no, Max is right. That's they'll get you there fast. That It's a little details they mean so much for a film like this. Uh, Eric, let's talk. I want to I want to talk about a couple of scenes. I'm gonna ask you what you feel is the the uh, the pivotal moment, if you will. So first off, let's talk our first look at at understanding that you know what, Vincent might be the bad guy, but we're on his side. He wins us over with uh.

41:31 I'm talking about the scene where Vincent defends Max against Max's boss, the uh stick this yellow cab with your fat ass moment, so you know, they get pulled over by the police. The police report it, then they get called over to you know, something a little more pressing. They report it to the the cab company. His boss is lighting him up on the radio. You're big, you're gonna pay for this, You're I'm I'm docking your paycheck, I'm doing this, and he's just oh, you know, and it's vincent that that just takes command of the situation. He grabs the radio and threatens the boss and he's like, who is this and he you know, he rattles off like you know, he's the district attorney, blah blah blah.

42:11 He's going to have him for this, He's gonna have him for that. Then I was like, who wha, whoa, whoa wa what Let's let's take it easy. Let's take it easy. We don't need to do this. And then he he empowers Max to stand up to his boss. You know, he's and like he's like, they're off, Mike. He's like, tell him, tell him he can stick this. This yellow cap up was fat ass. If you if he ever tries this shit again with you, oh yeah, And you know, he's coaching Max on how to stand up for himself. And I immediately am a fan of Vincent in this moment. How about you? I didn't like that. Everybody, no matter what job you have, everybody has always had that little fantasy about telling their boss what to do with their job. And it was so gratifying, even though it was under duress, where he said, and now tell him the next time you pool that you can shove that yellow cab up his fat ass.

43:03 It was it was brilliant. I that was one of my favorite scenes. I have one other one and it's my favorite scene that maybe makes me out to be a little of a sociopath. But okay, well let's see. Let's see we might we might get it here. If I don't get it, I want you to bring it up. But moving on. Here's here's another pro Vincent moment. But it's the first time I'm turning on Max and I'm gonna call this the flower scene. He has no choice, he's got to go to the hospital visit his mom. Max, that is Tom Cruise ain't going nowhere. So they're walking in. Tom Vincent stops at the gift shop says, you know, flowers, and Max is like, she don't care about that. It's a waste of money, and he has this moment where he's like, hey, she she carried you in the womb for nine months by the flowers, you know, and even you know, and granted Max was right because she they get up there and she's like, what am I supposed to do with these flowers? He's like, I told you see, and he bought them. But then she has it, she's singing a different tune. But the fact that Vincent cares enough to coach Max on the on the importance of showing his mother respect, showing his mother love and making a small gesture like that again, I'm I'm all for I'm all for Vincent here, and then I'm even less for for for Max because he's he's not all okay, So he's

44:36 been lying to his mom, and then he takes this opportunity to run out with Vincent's briefcase and make it make a mad dash for it to escape, and I'm thinking, dude, you just left a homicidal killer in the hospital room with your mom. Dude, that's that is cowardly and that is stupid. I don't I don't. I don't understand, like what his attention was. I just don't, Well, the. Whole relationship that you just brought up when when Max's mother says, oh, why did you waste money on these? You know they're just gonna die? And then Max says he bought him, and Vinces said, yeah, I bought him, and she's like, oh, they're beautiful. I mean, Max says so much about Max's personality, about why Max is the way he is, and I can't speak to whether or not Max had deep feelings for his mother, but maybe he thought that was his chance to get away and to free himself with a situation which interestingly comes back later on when they're in the parking lot of the club Fever and he said, or no, they're in the parking lot of the club where Felix Reyes is in and he says, you've got ten minutes at ten oh one, I'm going to the hospital and I'm going to execute your mother. I think that was another pivot for Max.

46:00 The uh, the real, the real moment for Max where I'm back on his side is meeting Felix. You know, Javey R. Bardam's character, and he's got to find he finds his inner strength, right. You know. Vincent basically tells me like I'm not blowing my cover. You're going in, You're gonna pretend to be me. You're gonna get these other two names. But Harvey arbardiam with just a few minutes telling the Pedro story, the Santa Claus Pedro story. How do you think chilling? How do you think Santa Claus would feel if you come to him and say I lost my list? How pissed you think? Oh? That was beautiful beauty. In Max boom and he just looks around the room and says, what do I think? I think that guy behind me better put his gun away before I take it away from him and beat his bitch ass to death with it.

46:52 Yeah, it's a it's a It's a great moment for Max to to find some strength, to find, you know, to to kind of up for the situation, to Michael man up if you will, absolutely love that moment. And again I've said that I've used this phrase more times than I care to remember. But javyerbardam doing a whole lot with a very little bit of time. Yeh, that's awesome. Eric. I've got one other scene I want to talk about before we take a break. It's what I feel is the pivotal moment. It's the nighttime in La Montage. And here's why we are riding along with the cops. We are riding along with Vincent and Max. We get shots of palm trees, we get the La nightlife, we get the helicopters flying over all this while Chris Cornell with audio slave is belting out shadows on the sun. You feel like you're in the middle of a Miami Vice episode.

47:55 It is Michael Man in his purest form, and it may not be doing a whole lot for the movie itself or the story, but it's doing everything to tell you you're in Michael Man's world, and that for me makes it the pivotal moment. A montage of all. Things get out of my head? Are you with the montage? No? No, it wasn't so much the montage. It was I could I could kind of feel what Max was thinking, that he's involved in this huge thing now. And you're right. We've got this gritty La nighttime digital scenery with the palm trees, and then we're going past Lax with the planes coming in. We've got the coyote that wanders out in front of a car, and we haven't even touched on the soundtrack. Yet we're talking oakenfold audio sleeve. I mean it's a brilliant soundtrack.

48:52 Gruvamara has a great hands of time, great. But I actually do agree with you here. I have one of but I agree with you here. This is where Max realizes the scope of what he's involved in because they just escaped from Fever Club and they've got one more job to do, and Max at this point is like, this is the end all and be all. And this is I think where Max, while he's driving through that montage, he's going through his brain and he's thinking, Man, it's fight or flight. I gotta do something or I'm gonna die. And I think you're right. I agree with you about that. That is the pivotal part where Max gets to push. But I think there's one more little piece of that that finally gives him that confidence to go and do what he has to do. The montage is leading him up to it, but there's one little piece of that that puts him over the edge.

50:00 Tell me what what? What scene? You got? Two scenes? Number one when they zip when when Vincent Zip ties his hand to the steering wheel and the local thugs come up and they rob him, and Vincent doesn't make any short time about just completely taking those two guys out without without batting an eye. And I think that, well, that's the first time that that Max ever saw Vincent in action. He's he had never seen him do his job before. That was two best time, what like, he puts two guys down in less than seconds? Yeah, yeah, one point three yeah, crazy, And that that was from the Sas training. But anyway, that's when Max really that's when Max first sees what Vincent is capable of.

50:48 And then we get to the jazz club and we get to other places, but that montage, you were absolutely right, that's where Max is thinking in his head, I gotta do something or I'm gonna die. There's no way he's gonna let me live through this, and after everything I've been through and and now all of this, the shootout, the cops, the helicopters, You're right. I think that was the pivotal scene. But the one last piece of the puzzle was after they crashed the cab, after Max says, you know what you're full of? You know, we're all out here on this rock, just floating around in space, and we don't matter. Nothing matters, and he just decides to crash the cab. And then as he gets out of the cab, he sees Vincent's last target and it's Annie.

51:35 Mm hmm, and the dude dates down a cop. Yeah. Well, he's in. He's in. He's in fight or flight mode. He's gotta he's got to react. He's got to take care of he's gotta take care of Annie. Now he's he has to slay the dragon. He has to face Tom Cruise. He knows, he knows it. At this point, we're gonna take one more break and we'll come back. We'll start wrapping things up. We'll find out what Eric's suggestions are for more Michael Mann when we come back. Okay, So if someone watches Collateral, they love it, and they come to you, Eric and they say, hey, this guy, Michael Mann, I really love Collateral. What else can you recommend?

52:22 What should I be watching? I want to know what three films would you suggest they watch to better understand Michael Mann? Oh Man, that that that's hard. I would I think I would have to say Ferrari. For okay, one of his one of his one of his most recent. Yeah, one of the most recent Heat. Definitely Heat. Heat's got to be in the conversation. Because there's a lot of heat in this movie. I don't have a third. I'm falling short. I don't have a third. No third, He's really like, no, nothing comes to Mindy.

53:03 Maybe I could throw in Last to the Mohicans. But I watched it once. I thought it was a good film. But all right, well, I'm gonna help you out here. You're you're staring at me like I'm high. Well that's because Michael Mann's an incredible director. He's got so much from all right, so I'm with you. Nineteen ninety five's Heat, yep, has got to be a recommendation. Apaccino, Robert de Niro, chef. Yeah, Yes, nineteen ninety two is the Last of the Mohicans. Absolutely would be something I recommend. Uh. It's based off of James Finnimore Cooper's The Deer Deer Slayer Nathaniel Bumpo. It's great, it's a great story, it's a great movie. Daniel d. Lewis is just spectacular. Uh, that's the only word that comes to mind. Uh. Everything about the Last of the Mohicans is beautiful. As far as I'm concerned and I'm with though one more movie.

54:01 We covered it actually on our limited series nineteeny six Gotta Go with Man Hunter. We kind of mentioned at the top of the hour William Peterson. This is actually the first. It's based off a Red Dragon from Thomas Harris. The first Hannibal Lecter appearance we ever see on screen wasn't played by Anthony Hopkins, played by Brian Cox. Man Hunter is slick noir at its best, at its finest, you know, just you know, oozing eighties appeal to. Those are the three I would recommend, Eric, but I'm gonna I'm gonna give you one more option here. Okay, I call this the Palm Tree Trilogy, and what it is it's Heat, Collateral and Miami Vice. And I'm talking about Miami Vice, the movie Jimmy Fox as opposed to the although hey, you can't go wrong watching the television.

54:57 Series, which he did right as a follow up to t he did. He did, so I'm talking you're from from one coast to the next. It's it's palm trees, it's guns, it's no r it's incredible visuals, it's incredible music. I'm coining the phrase Palm Tree Trilogy. Michael Mann's Palm Tree Trilogy. You heard it here first he Collateral and mimy vice. Eric, I'm gonna tell you, I recommend owning this. I've got the two disc DVD. It still holds up, looks great. Until they do a four K release, I'll stick with it. But do you recommend people seeing this? Absolutely? I own it, And as you know, Dayton Johnson always says physical media is better than streaming. I have a blue I think I have the Blu Ray version of this on DVD. Yes, oh, absolutely, all right.

55:49 Lots of fun extras on the disc. But for those of you that like to stream, it is currently streaming on Paramount Plus right now. Yep. So, So listeners, what do you think of Michael Mann's Collateral? Have you seen it? Is it one of your favorite Tom Cruise performances? Who is? Who's your favorite movie? Hit Man? You know? Is it? Is it? Vincent? Like Eric Dirth believes, you can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x You can check out a film by podcast dot com for all of our episodes streaming on the platform of your choice. We've got a lot of fun stuff. There some games, there's some there's some articles, definitely some fun stuff to check out links to our patreon. You can also email us at a film by podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some of a film by swag.

56:43 Eric. I've had a blast talking talking Los Angeles and Hits and Tom cruise with you. Our listeners can find you over on the docum base seventy seven podcasts from time to time. You got a thing coming up soon, anything we should be on the lookout for. I think we do. I think we have record Ralph. All right, well, I want to thank you again for stopping by and talking collateral, and to all of you listening to the show, following us on social media and subscribing to our patreon. We thank you.