Robert Townsend - The Five Heartbeats

0:00 The question is, and I think you're the guy that can answer it. What was the music scene like June seventh, nineteen sixty five. Wow, Okay, nineteen sixty five. The Beatles were at the height of their power, The Rolling Stones were strong, the Birds were strong. But on the other side of the equation you had Motown at full power, and so we were. It was an incredible story, an incredible American success story of Barry Gordy with the Independent label and basically redefining black music for America. And he had top notch songwriters, top notch producers, and he found the talent and it was just success story after success story, And so to me, the sixties are an incredible decade of just innovation after innovation.

0:57 Where music was in nineteen fifty nine compared to where it was nineteen seventy, worlds of difference. So much happened in the sixties. It was happening, you know, on both sides of the I guess the racial spectrum. You had everything happening with Motown, everything happening with the British invasion, and then all the American bands which still had my band, the Beach Boys going strong in sixty. Five Motown at the height of its power. So let's talk about a film by Robert Townsend, his nineteen ninety one underrated music drama The Five Heart Beats. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson, and this is a film by a podcast.

2:05 Black History Month continues. We are celebrating another great director, Robert Townson, and I've got a fantastic guest co host if you will. Uh, he is no stranger to the show. He's been here before. I got nothing but love for this guest, Jeff Dave. I got nothing for I got nothing but love for you. Baby. Oh. I didn't come a quit with my Motown references, but thanks a lot, Jeff. I'm working my way back to you or something like that. But uh, we're working your way back to you. Were working your way back to a film by a podcast. Uh. Yeah. Thrilled to be here. I always love hanging out with you and talking movies, and this is one that I certainly feel is underrated. I love to shine a light on it.

2:52 And I'm impressed. Man. I I just threw I just threw a date at you in music history and you you you were just ready to go. You you you were dialed in ready, ready to talk about the music scene. So I have spent I have spent time immersed in the sixties. As you know. My show last year ran six or seven months where I just stepped through the discographies of the Beatles and the Beach Boys, and I had a blest with that. But almost equal to my love for that music is what was happening out of Detroit in Motown at Motown during that time. Yeah, the the Apples and Oranges podcasts wildly popular. U taught me a thing or three about the Beach Boys and about the Beatles. I told you I was a Beatles guy, wasn't a Beach Boys guy. You kind of won me over a little bit, and uh and you educated me.

3:40 So. Yeah, listeners, if you haven't already, check out the Apples and Oranges podcast a very awesome deaf Dave venture so. And one thing about those groups is the vocal harmonies, right, the vocal arrangements. I love music. I'm attracted to music that focuses on that and that where harmony is at the forefront of the sound. And so the same reason why I'd like, say, the Beast Boys, is the exact same reason I like groups such as the Temptations, right, or the Four Tops and the groups like that where it's all about the vocal performances. Well, let's get into you. I know you're itching to talk about the performances and this music, this film. But before we do, let's talk a little bit about Robert Townsend.

4:26 So Dave this one. You know, I'm teeing this up for. You, buddy. I'll do my best. In nineteen eighty four, he starred opposite Denzel Washington and A Soldier Story. He also starred in Streets of Fire as one of the Serels, one of my personal favorites, perhaps a precursor to his role in The Five Heart Beats Happy That in nineteen eighty four, two pretty big movies for him. Yep, ma'am. It's been a long time since I've seen Streets of Fire. And the last time I saw it, I didn't know I was looking at Robert Townsend. So I am ready to revisit that movie now. Yeah, I know you love nineteen eighty four, and you know I love nineteen eighty six, And def it was nineteen eighty six where he got his big break, working alongside fellow comedians like Sam Kinnison, Roseanne Barr and Jerry Seinfeld in the stage comedy concert Rodney Dangerfield. It's not easy being me. Can you imagine a talent like the talent on that stage in nineteen eighty six? I mean, we knew who Rodney Dangerfield was. He was a phenomenon.

5:34 But in nineteen eighty six, no one knew Roseanne Barr or Jerry Seinfeld or Robert Townson. I mean, talk about the greatness that was yet to come. Yeah, I wonder what to be like to be in that crowd, see what all that came afterward. That would have been a hell of a show. One more thing about mister Townsend. He owns his own film production company, the Townsend Entertainment Corporation, and has been nominated for more than three NAACP Image Awards throughout his career. That's that's impressive. That's awesome, absolutely so. Really and regardless of what one thinks about his movies, you know, whether they land with you or not, the dude made his own way, you know. Now, he took control of his own career, the writer, the director, independent filmmaker, the all tour and you see him go on and have success. It's just it's an awesome it's an awesome American success story, much like Barry Gordy in the sixties.

6:32 Yeah, Jeff, I got a quote for you. He was He gave this actually in ninety one during an interview when he was kind of out there supporting The Five Heart Beats, which is the film we're going to talk about. But I'll ask you, you know, if you if you have any words of wisdom for mister Robert Townson, you know, please share him. But here's when I thought was pretty interesting. They were interviewing him, and it was all about the you know, his his supporting the advancement of black actors in Hollywood. And he said, right now, because they do two hundred and forty seven movies in Hollywood a year, and maybe three of those films might have minorities in lead roles, I have to champion the cause and def He further went on to state his belief that films should just be entertainment and not looked at as black or white films.

7:19 It's good. I agree, Yeah, absolutely agree. I've got a couple of quotes here that I think you'll like, especially with your with the tilt you have on the show toward filmmakers toward directors. But before I do that, I got a couple of tidbits real quick that I want to throw out. Oh yeah, laid on me, Man laid on me. So he actually got started at Second City in the seventies in Chicago. He was he was in the Second City troop in nineteen seventy four. You're kidding me. Wasn't that seventy four? That was? Was that Candy's time? Or no that I'm thinking of someone else? Well, Candy might have been Second City at that time, but he probably would have been in Toronto. Okay, right, this is. Gonna be the Chicago Troope for the nineteen eighty eighty one season, which was the first Dick Eversol season, the first season after the original cast had left. He auditioned for Saturday Night Live from the nineteen eighty season. Okay, he got passed over because there was this kid named Eddie Murphy who also auditioned.

8:13 His longtime friend Eddie Murphy. Yes, wow, Why isn't Lauren Michaels just hiring both of them? Was comedic geniuses? What's he doing? Well? You know he did end up hiring well, Lauren Michaels was not on the show in nineteen eighty, but when Lauren Michaels came back in eighty five, he actually hired Damon Wayans. And as we'll see, there's a lot of connections between Townsend and the way In family. Oh yeah, absolutely, we'll talk about that a little. Yeah, we'll talk about that in a minute. I got one more for you before I get to the quotes, because I think you will like this. You might not know this, but Robert Townsend had an uncredited role as a baseball fury in The Warriors.

8:53 No, yes, sir, Robert Townsend was one of the baseball Furies. Yes, you've got to be kidding, all right? Is your mind blown? I have I earned my keep? My mind is absolutely blown. You know. You know we are huge fans of the Warriors on this show. You know our buddy Apache Ramos who was in the film, you know we talked to him from time to time. I can't believe Robert Townson was one of the Warriors though. Yeah, that's it? Hey, Is that all the excuse you need to go watch that movie again? Good? I don't need listen. I never need an excuse to watch the Warriors. You know it wasn't long ago. I was talking to Rob Ryder, who was one of the main Purple Furies. He even wrote the book Purple Fury.

9:36 So I gotta I gotta tell you, I'm excited to go back and check out and find Townsend in that now so death. I gotta be honest the Five This was the first time watching for me The Five heart Beats. I imagine some of our listeners may not have seen it that maybe they need a refresher. How about you, you lay down a synopsis for us? All right? Well, what credit words to do? I grab this from my It says in the early nineteen sixties, a quintet of hopeful young African American men form an amateur vocal group called the Five heart Beats. After an initially rocky start, the group improve, turn pro and rise to become a top flight music sensation. Along the way, however, the guys learned many hard lessons about the reality of the music industry with its casual racism and greed, while the personal weaknesses of the members threatened to destroy the integrity of the band.

10:30 Def Townsend has stated that the story behind The Five Heart Beats was based on the breakup of the Temptations, which was something he took very personally. Yes, he incorporates elements of store of the Temptation story. I believe it was the Dells, it was Sam Cook, it was Frankie Lyman. He kind of drew from their real experiences to come up the screenplay. Obviously, the main draw, I mean, the main influence, seems to be the Temptations. I after I watched this movie recently, I turned around and watched the Temptations television mini series that the team put on in nineteen ninety eight. They play very similar to each other. Oh yeah, this is this is basically a biopic for a group very much liked The Temptations.

11:17 They just happened to be a fictional group. But the whole thing plays like a biopic. Well, I'll tell you what I'm gonna do for the listeners. I'm gonna I'm gonna pull the curtain back and give them a little behind the scenes about this episode. Now, last week you and I were talking. I watched it, gave it, you know, gave it, gave it a first time watch. I was was very displeased with this film. I was not a fan, and I called you up. I was like, you know, I don't know what we're we might have to skip this one because I'm not happy with it. I don't think it's a good film. And you had the exact opposite reaction, and you're like, no, this is a good film. And we we started bantering back and forth. I said, well, okay, stop stop, stop, We're we're gonna do this. We're gonna do this film.

12:04 We're gonna talk about this film and maybe you can win me over, but I doubt it. Now I'm gonna tell you, I have given this a rewatch after our conversation, and I don't think it's a great film. But you did win me over, like you made. You made a very passionate argument in that that quick phone call. I so I kind of I put my deaf Dave goggles on and watched it a second time, and I did. I did fall in love with the film a little bit. I still have some issues, and we're going to talk about those issues, okay. But I just wanted you to know this is not You're not your your back's not up against the wall like you thought. I do have some good things to say about this film, and and overall, I'm glad that we're discussing it.

12:50 Uh, very good. But uh, before we before we discuss it, let's take a quick break, uh death. When when we get back, we'll well, we'll jump into these heartbeats. We'll we'll talk about this cast. Okay, all right, welcome back. We are discussing Robert Townsend's The Five Heartbeats with author podcasts personality Extraordinary Deaf Dave. Let's let's jump to it. One thing I love about Robert Townson, He's a he's an amazing director. But I love that he's always starring in his films, uh for the most part. So let's talk about Robert Townson playing Donald Duck Matthews.

13:32 Okay, well, it's the he I would I would say he is one of two of the Heartbeats that get a good, solid, like fully fleshed out character arc. He is the main guy. Is like his character, Duck is the guy who is the central force I guess behind the group. He's he's got organizing it, he's leading it. He's writing the songs. He he's as signing the parts, he's coming out with the choreograph, he's he's doing all this stuff. So it opens with him in modern day, which would be the early nineties, and and you don't quite know what's going on. He's hanging out on his back deck of his house and he comes across some old media news coverage of when he was in the Heartbeats, and the whole movie plays like a flashback, and so we're kind of seeing it from his perspective in a lot of ways.

14:23 Yeah, well, like finding those old life magazines and Jet magazine and things. Yet, yeah, I did. I did appreciate that like that. I and no, uh, no surprise here the comedian in the cast is getting the funniest moments in the film. Uh And I just I love watching Robert Townson perform. He's he is, He's He's so much fun. And I do appreciate that a movie like this, which for the most part is a drama, even though it goes off the rails here and there, I like that he is injecting some some very fun comedic moments into the script and him and his brother doing the the shy guy routine trying to pick up girls. Yeah, he's he's such a goof and it works, It really works, though, big fan of Townsend in this one. Good Michael Wright Michael Wright as Eddie King Junior. He's he's the the face of the Heartbeats. He's the lead. I gotta tell you this guy. I was not familiar with Michael Wright, but wow, what a performance.

15:27 I tell you. I do think he has the best. He's the media's role for an actor in this movie. He's his character, Eddie is the other one that I said has a full, fully realized character arc. And uh yeah, I you know, hats off to Michael Wright. He's probably best known for his role on OZ, which is okay. He played for his role on OZ. He played Omar White on that show. That's not a show that I watched a lot of, but I know it was very critically acclaimed. He is best known for that. We know him, or I assume that you're familiar with this the mini series and later on television series V from the early eighties.

16:08 Wait, Michael Wright was in V. He was in V. He was on the team. He was Wow. Yeah, Michael Light was on He was on V, and he was later beyond OZ. But here he is in the Five heart Beats. So rewatching the Warriors to find Townsend. Now I'm rewatching V to find Michael Wright. Yeah, did you know that he almost didn't get this role Deaf Dave Denzel Washington was sought for the role, but they couldn't get him due to budget constraints. Yeah. I saw that, and I I'm trying to remember, like what what it didnnell look like in nineteen ninety one. I'm afraid he might have been too old already. I don't know, you think, No, I don't. I don't know what was he doing. I guess Glory. We're talking about Glory era Denzel. Yeah, yeah, that's that's just like two years after Glory.

16:51 Okay, Yeah, that could obviously he definitely could have done he could have kno got out of the park. The Uh you know he's playing the David Ruffin character, right, Uh? Yes, Michael Wright is his Eddie is the David Ruffin character of this of this group. And so we see him, you know, he he's like the force. He's like that dynamic presence on stage that will take over a show, even though he's not like the leader behind the scenes of the band. And and we see it, you know, go to his head. His ego gets out of control, he falls into substance abuse. Is he gets separated from the group. He goes through the whole arc, so he gets to play with that though. And that's and I thought, he just he's the standout performer for me in in this movie.

17:39 I'm going to agree with you, but he may be the standout. But the guy that I'm having the most fun watching is probably leon As J. T. Matthews. He's he's playing Robert Townson's older brother. Right man. He's He's and he's definitely the ladies man. You know. J. T. Leo is an actor that I am very familiar with, and I feel like everybody should be, like I don't know why he's not known, but it's odd to me how obscure he has remained. I don't understand that. I remember him very well in Cliffhanger. He was awesome in Cliffhanger. He had a star turn in Cool Runnings. He was he got to start, I guess in the Madonna music video. I mean, he's just yep, he's a character that He's an actor that I always recognize and every time I see him, I'm always impressed with his performance.

18:35 You know, you mentioned the Temptations. You also mentioned David Ruffin got to mention he actually he goes on to play David Ruffin in nineteen ninety eights The Temptations. Yeah, Like I. Said, I watch the connectivity there. I watched those two back to back. They're very similar stories, very similar aesthetic, and then you've got Leon and both of them and so yeah, that really kind of blurred the lines there a little bit. So, yeah, he's good in that one. He actually is playing David Ruffin. Yeah. One of the one of the finer actors in this film, Harry Lennox is Terrence Dresser Williams. I was surprised to see him because he usually plays, you know, the square or he plays the the good guy that you really don't like anyways, you know, like like like you know he's in Man of Steel. He's he's the general that is trying to find out what Superman's fortune solitude is.

19:31 You know, he's always like the guy that he's like, he's like the guy that's enforcing the rules that you just don't like. But man, is he amazing in this movie. And his dance moves. Yeah, he's he's he's playing Dresser the bass singer, so uh yeah, and he's the original choreographer for the group. Yeah, before they bring in a ringer. So yeah, he's like I remember him from the Matrix sequels. Oh yeah, and he was. He was with the Free Free Humans preborn Humans, leading that movement, so I remember him from that, and of course he's in the Snyder Verse two. So but this is where I first saw him.

20:11 I first saw him. There's a movie he did with Damon Wayns and Stacy Dash More Money, I think is what it was. Okay, yeah, if you haven't seen it, that's a deaf Dave, you would like it. It's a comedy. You know. Damon Wayne's like a hustler, He's always scamming people, but then he falls for the girl who is Stacy Dash and turns out that she's dating Harry Lennox, who is an absolute square. And it's it's a fun movie. Check out. Now I've seen it. Now. It did come out. It came out after Heartbeats, So this is how more and back I go with Heartbeats. Oh wow. Okay, but but you know, Ralph Tresvant has a song on the Mo Money soundtrack, so I'm very familiar Ralph Tresvant, lead singer of New Edition the Modern Day Temptations. This is all the same genre. Is this has hit me in my bulls.

21:01 Wow, I had no idea this movie is just gonna rabbit hole over the place. I'm glad though, how about how did you what did you think of Tiko Wells playing Anthony Fireboy Stone. He's he's a guy who seems to have had a solid career in television, continue to be a working actor. Obviously. I don't think he ever became a big name or anything. He's to me, Uh, this character snuck up on me in this movie. Like I loved his what his harmony part when they were performing, He's coming in with the highest part right over the top of everybody, and so these musical these set pieces where they're performing, I mean, I'm in heaven and he and he's playing that part.

21:46 I love it. But as far as his role in the movie, he seemed like one of the lesser members. But but then the the ending we get. He really like his part in that and his art like really gave us the happy ending that we needed, and it just made me like, I just really liked his character. So but as far as the actor himself, you know, uh, I don't know if he really stood out that mean, for me so much with any kind of much right strong performance probably one of the lesser presences and one. Of one of the one of my favorite performances. Uh. You know, we've talked about the five heart beats. There's one. There's one more person I want to talk about.

22:28 Uh. And then of course if if there's anyone you know you'd like to call attention to, we'll we'll talk about him. But uh, you talked about a ringer, you know. Uh, Lennox was like the the group's choreographer until they brought in a ringer. Harold Nicholas playing Ernest Sarge Johnson. This this old man. I mean, he's like Yoda when he goes. He comes, you know, shuffling in and they're like, who's this old drunk? And then he just that scene where he shows them what he can do his dance and he, you know, like Lennox is doing his dance movies. Dresser. He's like that ain't shit. I'm like, belive us little bit he throws that cane, you know, since he came down and man, I mean talk about blowing blowing your hair.

23:14 That's awesome. He's like seventy years old. He's just seventy years old. I love Sarge. What'd you think of Sarge? He's tamp dancing all around these guys. He was it was It was great to see that happen. But let me ask you a question. What do you know about? What do you know about Harold Nicholas? Nothing, dude, all right, listen, this is the guy to talk about as we observe Black History Month. You talk about someone breaking barriers and making film history. You don't even know who you're talking about when you talk about Nicholas. Harold Nicholas, he started in movies starting in the nineteen thirties as a child with his brother. The Nicholas brothers were at tap dancing sensation, and they were getting work in movies. They they appeared throughout the thirties and forties. As a matter of fact, in nineteen forty eight, they danced with Gene Kelly on screen in a movie called The Pirate Wow, and that broke the color barrier.

24:13 I had no idea this guy had such a storied background. Now, in nineteen forty three's The Weather, it included a performance by the Nicholas brothers that Fred Astaire said was the greatest movie musical number he had ever seen. That's a hell of a compliment. We got Gen Kelly, we got Fred Astaire. We're breaking the color barrier and it's all with a young Sarge who would make his final cinematic appearance in the Five Heart Beats. That is absolutely incredible. And when you throw names like that around, you know, what he does in this movie tells me he is. He's just as good, if not better than those guys on a if if, if we're being fair, Yep, absolutely wild man. I had no idea.

25:07 We'll talk a little bit about the background here, Dave. You know you mentioned the Waynes Brothers. This one was co written by Keenan Ivory Waynes. The film was initially set up at Warner Brothers in nineteen eighty eight, with Keenan and his brother Damon to star in. And I don't know what they were thinking, but after Warner Brothers passed on the project, they went over to Fox to create in living color. So I'm gonna tell you, I'm gonna say that's a win all all the way around. That's a win win. Yeah, I mean, could you imagine, imagine, imagine Warner Brothers says yes to the Waynes brothers, and then we never get in Living Color. That's true, that would be terrible. I don't want to live in that world.

25:48 You know. I'm looking at the timeline here. I'm thinking, if they say yes to the Five Heart Beats, we also don't get I'm Gonna Get You Sucker, which came out at the end of nineteen eighty eight, and it has a lot of the same players in including Keenan, Ivory Wayans, and Damon Wayans. So I think so obviously Townsend and Keenan are friends, they're working together, they're putting this project together, and it doesn't it doesn't get off the ground right away. So the Wayans go off and do I'm Gonna Get You Sucker, and in Living Color, I mean bam. Talking and then become become household names. Household names, right, and the Wayans name. It becomes its own brand throughout ever since.

26:30 Really from yeah, from then on, so we got so. Two years later, townshend Tip takes over the project. He had met former Temptations singers David Ruffin and Eddie Kendrick with the intention of bringing them on as technical advisors. Fox refused for fear that Motown founder Barry Gordy would sue them. That's some that's some. Uh, that's some. That's some sway that he's holding you know. Uh. But you know you mentioned the earlier and because Fox would not sign off on the former Temptations, Uh, the R and B group the Dells, which you know they had a pretty successful forty four decade run. Uh, they take it on the technical advisor roles and I correct me if I'm wrong, But they're the ones doing the singing as well.

27:18 Uh, No, I don't think they're doing the singing what we I watched the bonus features on the DVD. Yeah, and the singing is actually being provided by by professional session singers. And they may be motown singers. Okay, these are studio guys that are not famous names, but they're recording all of the singing performances for the movie. Oh all right, I thought that I thought was the Dells. So yeah, that's why that's why you're that's why you're around to keep us honest. Now, Roughening Kendricks had been performed together. They were they were act during during this time. With the way the Temptations went in the subsequent decades, they ended up not with them, but putting on shows the two of them, and so that's how they ended up kind of being together here initially on this project.

28:05 Before we talk about scenes, I do have one one more fun little fact for your deaf well, you know, and you you're you're your clue in so you already know this, but I'll let the listeners know. Eddie's girlfriend, a character named baby Doll, was offered to Whitney Houston, and she turned it down because she said, this role is way too small. You got, I mean, she's not wrong, and clearly, you know, she goes on, you know, a couple of years later, she's doing the bodyguard, So miss Houston, I think she knows what she's talking about. But I thought that was interesting because, like, you know, imagine this was we almost had a movie that had Whitney Houston, you know, and Denzel Washington doing doing like a motown that type thing. That would have been that would have been pretty interesting.

28:48 I think that that would have taken the movie to a different level. I'm not sure Townsend was would have been the guy for a cast like that, Like I don't know if he could have handled that. Like maybe not. This is a small movie. It's a small budget, it's a small all production. It's Townshend and his buddies. They I just I don't know. I don't know if he would have been ready for that job if he had gotten Denzil and Whitney. But but I'm not complaining. I think it all worked out all around for everybody. Well, I want to talk about a couple of noteworthy scenes, and I'm gonna do something I never do. I am gonna mention a scene that I absolutely can't stand. Yeah, and in that regard, it's noteworthy. It's noteworthy because it should have it should not have been in the film.

29:28 But I'm gonna get to that. But before let's start, let's start off on the good foot. Their first performance where they do nothing but love for you, you know, and he's you know, Eddie's rushing in at the last possible second. The girls are swooning. It's I'm loving every second of this, this this performance, and I'm loving I'm loving the song. If I'm being honest, is that the one where he's going take us to church, Take us to church. He's like, yeah, he's calling the shots, he's calling Yeah. It works, man, it works. It is early in and at this point, I'll be honest with you. At this point, I am absolutely loving the movie. And I'm like this, if this is what we're gonna get for the next hour and fifty minutes or whatever, this is gonna be a hit. Now I'm gonna be uh, I'm gonna think otherwise as we as it goes along. But I do gotta tell you this movie. One thing I can't I can't argue is that the first the first act is sensational.

30:30 It is absolutely sensational. He Townsend does a great job introducing everyone. He does a great job. Let you know, this is the sound you're gonna hear. And he's setting this this amazing movie up. I don't know that it's gonna He's gonna land land it so so well, but you know, you feel otherwise, So maybe we'll talk about that. But uh, another scene and then I gotta ask you. I gotta ask you if there's a scene that you want to talk about. I absolutely love the photo montage with Sarge teaching them choreography. I had never seen that before. And here and here's and listeners. If you haven't let watched this movie, Here's what I'm talking about. We've all seen my montage in a movie. There's hundreds of them, right, But def I've never seen a montage that's just photographs.

31:18 You know, We've got a great song playing and it's a it's a series of photographs, old photographs showing Sarge teaching them the moves, and it's them playing gigs, and it's them, you know, having a good time. It's them getting into trouble, and it's all captured through still photographs like you're going through. Like you know, Robert like his his character, you know, Duck is at the beginning of the movie and he's kind of reminiscing, he's looking back on old, old magazines, and we get to feel that, you know, we're like I thought it was one of the most it's probably the most clever montage I've ever seen to tell a story, you know, a big story in a short short time. And this movie does a couple of months, t is, but this is this is the one to talk about. What do you think about this photograph mostage moment with Sarge.

32:06 I liked it a lot. And the reason I do is because I you know, I'm not consuming this movie as a as like a regular movie. I'm consuming it like it's a biopic. So and I think there's certain tropes or trends that you see with biopicks, and this is one of them. This is like Tay. The way this played to me was like we were looking at some of their media coverage and publicity shots from throughout their career as we see them like, you know, turn into a professional group and then hit the big time and stuff like that. So so to me, it kind of like blurred that line of like, Okay, yeah, this is now we're seeing some like quote unquote real world coverage of them, you know, yeah, photos that fans of theirs might have seen in their world.

32:52 You know, give us death Dave, give us a noteworthy's seen. Well, I'm in love with the early musical performances, like you were talking about the first one where eighty is running in off the street and just grabs the mic in the last second takes over. Uh. The other one later when they're the uh the competition is trying to uh sabotage their performance and they. Got are you talking about the fixed Talent show? Yes? Oh that's such a good I had that one. I had that one. Next, tell us about that. One yeah, and they they they're they're given the crappy like house pianist and and they're they're doing this show. They're doing their number and it sucks and it's slow, there's no energy. They've lost the crowd. And Robert Towns's character duck, he's like he's not having it, like this is my music, you're ruining it. He's like forgetting this choir boy, he's over overly sensitive to the negative reaction from the crowd.

33:41 Quits. Dude walks off the side, well on the other wing. He's gone because he can't handle it. And Townsend goes over there, shoves the piano player out the way, knocks them to the ground, takes over the piano and just like that, all the energy is back. All the guys know what to do. Boom their own point. The crowd turned in, just like on a dime. And then they're in the middle of playing and they're playing to the front row and gets the music's building up, and then you hear the high voice come in over the top and the choir boy has come back on the stage and his voice is sailing over everybody else's and it's just like. Ah booze the booze disappear from from jeers to cheers.

34:22 The girls in the front row of the audience. The one girl passes out. She can't handle it when when Eddie gets like he basically is like right on top of her, right in her face, and she melts. She can't handle it. She's actually the girlfriend of the competition, yeating groot it. She was there to make sure everybody booed them is. She melted in her seat and could not help but swoon. And that was an incredible turn in this story. I'm watching, I'm watching that moment where he wins the girl the other guy's girl over and she absolutely she just passes out right there. I really Prince wrote a song.

35:02 You don't know if you remember in the nineties, he had a he had a song called pussy Control No No, that one that's it's controversial death. But uh, I'm watching Eddie do his thing. I was like, I'm hearing Prince singing that song. Pretty awesome scene. I love that moment. Actually, before I talk about what I think is the pivotal moment, the scene that I think is a pivot moment, I want to talk about a scene I just can't stand and it's it's the first time where I'm like, what, what what's going on here? Can we talk about Duck singing with his little sister when they when okay? So here, Okay, I'm gonna I'm gonna tell you why I don't like it, and then if you if you wanna, you wanna, you know, preach on and be like, hey, this this is why it works. Then you know I want to hear it.

35:50 But okay, this is where I feel like, okay, So I will say that I'll begin by saying this. I think the movie at certain times takes on different genres and and it's it's a little jarring at this point. Up to this point, we've got ourselves a pretty good what feels like a biopic for this group the five Heartbeats. But then it turns into a musical because he is, you know, Duck is in there. He's sharing a bedroom with his little sister. And by the way, this little girl has one hell of a voice. So I will say that, I know I'm gonna trash the scene, but I cannot say enough awesome things about this this young girl's singing voice. It was amazing. But he's he's been writing lyrics right, because he's their songwriter. He's been writing lyrics, and he's been throwing you know, he wads up the paper and he throws it. And she's back there like a like a cartoon, trying to keep the place clean, and he's throwing paper around and she's getting upset. And then she says a line and then he's like, wait, do that again, and she sings it like but it's like a musical, like work, we're singing instead of talking, right, And then and then we dump out a trash can and then we're pulling drawers open, and we're finding all these random lyrics that he just magically pieces together with her singing a duet. It's the scene's just stupid. You know.

37:15 I don't get am I am I out of line? Like I just I just it didn't. It didn't fit this movie. If this was a musical, I'm all in. But it's not a musical. It's a music drama. It's a movie about music. Where yet on the scene, Well. This may or may not surprise you, but I'd largely agree with what you're saying. I had basically the same reaction. Now. I don't know if I hate it as strongly as you do. The the sheer joy that they seem to be having in the scene, it gives it a real positive energy, and I can get caught up in that, and it it like out of context, isolated on its own. Like you say, if it were in a musical, like it could be a fun little number, but does it fit the tone in the style of the rest of the movie. I would agree with you that it does not, and it breaks the logic and it breaks the reality of the movie. I don't I don't argue with that.

38:10 When the first music scene that we were loving a second ago, where where Townsend, where Duck is at the piano, you know, calling out the parts on the fly, and we're we're supposed to believe they're just improvising the whole thing. Yeah, that that already is straining my disbelief, right, But the one thing that this scene does takes it further, and is the thing that bothers me about musicals, even when I know I'm watching a musical, is like, oh, so suddenly these characters know the melody and and that he's finding all that and like this just spontaneously happens like this on the fly by accident. There's no way like it's it's it's something that happens in musicals. But musicals are partly fantasy, right, They're not following the rules of reality.

38:52 So yeah, I agree, it's I think it does break the rules of the film. I don't argue with that, And and I love this movie and I have good will toward it, and it's very charming to me. I'm also aware that it's not perfect, and I think where it is flawed is in its uneven in it's I don't know if it's the pace or if it's the tone. There's past Okay, Okay, so let's just I don't want to jump in and out of negativity. So we're in a negative spot right now. Let's just stay there. Let's let's marinate for a minute. Okay, because you just. Mentioned the pacing and the next note I'm looking at on the page that you know, as I'm watching this movie, I wrote the pacing is off skips forward. You know, we're all over the map, and I just I feel like, I know we've got a lot of story to cover, because you know, we're starting off with like a you know, duck in his in his sixties, and then we got to go back in time, and we got to go from like nineteen sixty five all the way through the nineties.

39:55 But you can't cram three decades into a movie this like like this and not have it feel a little jarring, because all of it, you know, like we're we're kind of going back and forth as we're all over the map, because like Duck's writing poetry to a girl and we don't know who she is, and you know, and then Eddie's girl is pregnant and you know, we don't even know who she is, and you know, and then all of a sudden, Eddie's got a drug problem. Jimmy gets murdered. It's it's and by the way, the Jimmy murder scene, it almost feels like a thriller at that point, like that, even the music feels wrong. It's like it's like a made for cable TV movie where it's like a scary, scary movie. It's the middle of the middle act where we the wheels, I feel the wheels kind of go off the rail a little bit.

40:44 And you mentioned that the Jimmy murder, and I believe that comes immediately after where one of the other sink from a different group. One of the other singers is confronting Big Red, the record label dude for his royalties or something, and the guy's strong arms and hangs him over the ball and scares and stuff like that. But that's also kind of like played for laughs almost And then and then you turn right around and you have this, like, you know, this murder scene that feels like it's in a different movie entirely. So yeah, I think I think we are seeing an unevenness in tone. That's probably what bothers me more than the pacing. So like, we spend a lot of time early in their careers, we see them forming and developing and hitting it big and all that kind of stuff, and then, like you say, the second half of the movie where they're already big and now they're dealing with all the problems that come with success, with this egos and drugs and all this kind of stuff, and it just kind of turns into a bit of a jumble. But you know, I see that happening in biopics, and I think it happens in the Temptations mini series.

41:56 Also Part one is just like this, It's fantastic and it's right it is fun, and then this part two is a jumbled mess while they're dealing with all the crap and they're just trying to get so much in right, You're talking about a story that lasts thirty or forty years, and you're dealing half the movie is in the first four or five years, and so you got to try to cram it all in. Now with a biopic, you understand it's a true story. You got to try to cover all of it. And here he would have the luxury to just, you know, short, you know, scale down the movie and tell the more coherent story. Yeah, he's he's got a he's got the luxury of knowing that these aren't real people. The five heart beats there, they're a fictional group. So he so I get it.

42:39 I get that he's wanting to sample a lot of the highs and lows of some of the of some of Motown's biggest acts, like we talked about, but just trim it down. We don't need, you know, And you talk about that jumble, don't don't lie to me. I know there's one one part of that that jumbled mess that you absolutely loved, And I'm talking about in the eighties when they took it on like the hit therap Look, No, I was watching AZ like what I know, Def's gonna love that. Uh yeah, So I mean, but I think he was. Townsend was like basically telling his temptation story, and he had already opened with a bookend seen in modern day, which is the early nineties, and so he just he shows all this in here, and he falls into the same trap that actual biopics of real groups fall into, I think. But to me, as a consumer of biopics, I rolled with it like it just it didn't bother.

43:32 It didn't take me out of the movie too much. I acknowledge that it's happening, that it's a thing, that there's an uneven to the pace there, and it's a jumbled miss and it could be a tighter movie if he was trying to tell more of a normal story. But because I'm just seeing this as a biopic about a group I've never heard of before, I just I accept that a little bit more easily. Well, I'll tell you what, I won't be negative anymore. I want to. I want to be positive. I do want to talk about what I feel is the pivotal moment of this film. One of the one of the the better acted moments in this film. And they and I'll see if you agree with me, because you haven't really talked to me. You haven't really said to this. Here's what I think is pivot moment. But here's what I think is, I'm just gonna say a line of dialogue.

44:13 Why do we have to cross over? You know the scene I'm talking about in the Deep they're in the Deep South. They're they're toring, they got you know, their record is is being pressed. They're so excited, and then the A and R man shows up and he's like, hey, hot, off the presses, I've got your record. We did make some changes and death the changes. We see the album cover and it it's the Beach Boys basically standing on standing on the cover. Well, it's five five five white guys, five square white guys. Yeah. Uh, well, I think you might be getting that confused with the with the Five Horsemen, which is a white group that we see in the movie and they're played as a.

44:53 Joke, right, yeah, they are the Five Horsemen. Yeah, but this album cover shows white people. But I think it's like showing like a white family having a picnic. Or something like that. Yeah, and uh that that's drawn from real life that happened to some of these motown groups. Is you're you're taking black acts and because you're afraid that you're not going to sell as many records if you show their faces, they are putting white people on the album covers. This is this is like some of the crap that happened in the sixties that groups were dealing with, and tells it, puts it into this story here. Uh, it's it's a brutal blow like you like you feel bad for them, and you're also you know, pissed off for them, you know what I mean. I'm angry for I'm angry for them. It's it's a heartbreaking scene and it's and you're and you're just I don't know. For me, I'm watching it, and I stayed angry because, like you said, this this wasn't fiction. This really happened. This was a real thing happening, uh, to these artists in the sixties. And it's it's just sickening. Man.

45:53 So you had group, he had artists like Elvis and Pat Boone who made their career out of hovering songs by black artists. Like, Yeah, there'd be a good song, and then the record label be like, oh, let's get a white person to do it so we can sell, so we can sell more to our audience. And then you had situations like this where black actu are putting out strong records, but they wouldn't market their image. They felt like they couldn't do that. And then leon As JT has his monologue which you partially quoted. I would advise you not to fully quote it. I won't. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna repeat everything he said, but I can get the GYT. Yeah. I don't think you and I are allowed to fully quote it. But De La Soul actually sampled that dialogue in there. I think it's nineteen ninety three song called Patty Duke.

46:40 Oh, I got to check that out. So that song opens with the sample of that dialogue from this movie is right there at the beginning of that track. How about that? Yeah? For you, Dave, is this the pivotal moment of the movie or do you have something else in mind? Well, you know, as I analyze the story structure of it, I think what you have to look at is what happens with Choirboy in the middle of the movie. So he's called choir Boy for a couple of reasons, one of which is that his father is the pastor of a church, and when he's got an opportunity to go full time with his music and hit the road with this group, he does not have his father's blessing. His father thinks that it is too worldly, too secular. It's gonn be too much temptation, too much sin. You need to be home serving the church. And he basically has to stand up to his dad and rebel against him in order to continue on with the Five Heart Beats.

47:30 And up until now, things have been positive with the Five Heart Beats. We've seen good developments and think they've been meeting with success and it's working out for them. And there's that last confrontation with his dad over the phone at a gas station and he leaves the Bible behind, hile Cameron lingers on that Bible that's now abandoned, and so now Choir Boys on a path where he's leaving that moral compass behind in his home grounding behind, and from that point forward, everything with the group starts to unravel and go down. Here, I think it's okay so I mean, I think it's a great scene, but and you're saying, you know, I'm just surprised because like choir Boy, who's not really at the forefront, you're going, you're going Choirboy for the pivotal moment. I think you might have won me over there where you said, because like we I didn't think about it, like the Bible's left there and then they that's where they the drugs, the alcohol, and the decline of the group happens.

48:24 Okay, Dave, it all falls apart, and then that ties into the to the happy ending. I don't know how much you want to get into the to the ending of it, but it turns into a redemption story at the end of the movie, and where where it also, you know, and part of it involves choir Boy having after their fame and their run is over. He's he's back at that church survey and and so that that art kind of goes full circle. All right, Well, I will say that the ending of the film very very uplifting, very very happy. I do love the ending of the film, but I don't know, you might you might have won me over on the pivot moment. We'll see we're gonna take one more break and then we're gonna start wrapping things up. Def Dave, welcome back. Talking about director Robert Townsend, def Dave. If someone was unfamiliar with this director, which three films would you suggest they watch?

49:20 Okay, well I do, I don't. He hasn't directed a lot of feature films. He would go on, I think to have his biggest success in television. But I would say that The Five Heart Beats is actually my favorite of all the movies he directed, So to meet that's his best one. He started with Hollywood Shuffle, which is an important movie. He made that with all his friends for a very small amount of money, over a long period of time. It completely independently produced. It has the weigh Ins in it. It has several other actors that were in Five Heart Beats. Let's let's let's talk about Hollywood show. So Hollywood is Hollywood Shuffle your first pick? Hollywood chronologically, it's my first pick? Yeah, Okay, So nineteen eighty seven Hollywood Shovel's he's a signettes Yeah yeah, yeah. So he's here's the thing. He's he's been in Hollywood a little bit, yeah, and he's seeing the lack of roles available to black actors at the time, so he makes the decision to step behind the camera make his own film. Yeah, maxes out his credit cards and spends nearly one hundred thousand dollars to write, direct, and produce and star in this film. This is the first, uh, my first experience with Robert Townson watching Hollywood Shuffle. I remember catching this movie on on Showtime. I think, uh, back in the eighties, late eighties that is. And it's hilarious, it's and it's so good because it has a message.

50:39 It truly does have a message. Uh. He's with a lot of a lot of familiar faces. Paul Mooney, he's got the Wayns brothers. Hollywood Shuffle. You're saying five heart Beats is his best film. I think Hollywood Shuffle is his best. But well, I digress that's that. You know, that's a different that's a different conversation. But Hollywood Shuffle your first pick. What he's holding up Marrior to Hollywood and he's showing like how minorities are treated a lot of times. Yeah, and and basically the message of that movie it is it's almost like Kentucky Fried movie. It's a series of standalone vignettes where you see the same cast playing different parts in every skit. But he's but he's moving. It's like he's using these vignettes to tell a story. Right, And the moral is, don't degrade yourself for us, for like a stereotypical role in somebody else's movie. You know.

51:28 The tagline is you can always find work at the post office. Like, it's better to take something more humble that you can keep your dignity. All right, your second your second suggestion for for someone that's unfamiliar with Robert Townson. It's as well you may not. People may not realize this, but the Eddie Murphy concert film Raw and ten eighty eight, directed by Robert Townsend. Eddie Murphy Raw, I'm gonna go ahead say, okay, so interesting, Uh we are two for two. Now if I was in a suggest three movies, we're two for two here, Eddie Murphy. Rall you know, Hollywood schuff. I'm with you, Eddie Murphy Raw, I'm with you. I'm gonna go ahead and say, think Eddie Murphy Raw is the stand up comedian's film. This is the one to be measured. This is the measuring stick. Right, if you're gonna be if you're gonna be a comedian, you're gonna do a movie that's basically your stand up routine. Eddie Murphy. Raw is the blueprint, right.

52:28 It's not only Eddie Murphy at the height of his powers, but like you said, it's the standard for all stand up comic films and so, yeah, and I find it ironic to hear. You know, Eddie Murphy was the guy who beat him out for Saurday Night Live in nineteen eighty. Yeah, and here we are, seven or eight years later and he's directing. Raw for him, he's directing Eddie Murphy. He's directing him. Yeah, And they've been they've been friends ever since. And I love that. I mean, their kids play together, or their kids did when they were little, they played together. I think this is fantastic. What I love is, you know, Robert Townsend and kenan Irey Williams started out working together and because of how things went, they ended up working separately. But both of them became like the leading face for in the leading voice for black independent filmmaking.

53:16 Absolutely, and they. Were doing it at a high level with huge success. You know, so and anybody regardless of race or color that can make it as an independent filmmaker. Stay and control own everything, Stay in control of everything and not sell out and have enough success to be able to do this at a high level. That's off. That's awesome. All Right, you got one more suggestion, And here's where we're gonna. I guarantee we're gonna, we're gonna. We're gonna be a split decision here because I doubt that you're gonna have the pick that I got. But what's one more one more suggestion? Okay, I've seen you go both ways on this on your show. If I'm allowed to pick five heart beats, I'm picking five heart beats.

53:59 If you all allow all right, I'll give it. I'll give it. I'll give it to you only because he his filmography is not extensive. He's a lot of amazing television. I know we didn't really talk about his TV work, but I'll i'll. You know, if I can let Amber Lewis, the Voice of Reason, get away with it, I guess I guess I gotta let deaf Dave get away with it. So you're you're picking the five heart beats? Yeah, and you know there's another one hanging out there that he directed. I don't know if you're gonna pick it up or not want what are you gonna pick? All Right, So if you haven't seen this film, I employ you to watch it because it's really good. And don't look at the critics, don't look at the the you know, rotten tomatoes and all that bullshit. Just watch the film because it's it's he. This is this is a movie where I feel like he his direction is superb and it's amazing performances. I'm talking about two thousand and eight's Phantom Punch seen you have You're not familiar, Okay, so it's a bio it's a bio pick starring Ving Rams as boxer Sonny Listen and yeah, it covers like the Liston Patterson era of the sport. Obviously, it depicts the famous phantom punch he receives against Muhammad Ali that was very controversial. A lot of people thought he took a dive, like because of the way that you know, Alli's punch. It's like, people, did he did he actually hit him? You know, twenty seconds in the fight he's down, so you know, it covers the dark side of his life with prison and the mob. You know his suspicious death in nineteen seventy one, was he murdered? Was it a heroin overdose? Very good film, and I would recommend

55:30 it because, again, you hear the name Robert Townsend, you immediately think I'm ready to laugh. Even in a movie like The Five Heartbeats, it's injected with enough comedy, right, Phantom Punch doesn't feel like a Robert Townson film, But I think it's one of his best. Wow. Yeah, check that out, Phantom. I will check that out. One. I do want to mention I didn't make it one of my picks because it's not a theatrical release. This was a television movie. Yeah, but in two thousand he would reunite with guess who Leon, Yeah, and they would do a biopic on Little Richard with Leon in the Little Richard role.

56:10 Well, you know what, you're not allowed to suggest it because that's not the way we do it. Death. Those connections there, there's five heartbeat connections. Don't don't go Scott Hoffman in your answer. All right, I'll tell you. I'll ask you though, and I already know your answer. But for the record, do you recommend The Five Heart Beats? I recommend it unreservedly, while at the same time acknowledging it's not perfect. There's some unevenness to it. But if you like this genre music, if you like the Temptations, you like motown, classic motown, there's everything to love here. And the performances, the singing performances, so much fun. I find this movie very charming. It's low budget, it's quirky, it's a little bit uneven in spots, but it also has a wonderful, heartwarming, uplifting ending. It's ultimately a positive message and I I am totally charmed and one over by this movie. I highly recommend it. And it's hard to see. It's hard. It's you know, it's hard to find it out there, and it didn't have a great run.

57:13 It didn't make a lot of money. It's a little bit obscure. It's it's an underrated gym. Where'd you want? I caught this on Prime? Where'd you watch it? I had to check it out in the library, watch on DVD. All Right, all right, I'm gonna I'm gonna crash my answer very carefully here. All right, I'm gonna say see it for the music. That's that's what I would tell you, if you, if you, if you love Motown, you love this, this, this, this music, see the movie, but watch the nineteen ninety eight temptations if you want to see a better version of this film. That's that's how That's how I'll say it. That's no argument. Yeah, no argument there, all right, that's great.

57:54 He did do a making of The Five Heart Beats in twenty eighteen. It's behind the scenes a documentary, so there you go. Yeah, you mentioned we didn't get a chance to watch it, but I wondering whether that's available. I'd like to see it because I'll be honest with you, sometimes when you see a documentary about a film, or you see like the right kind of extras, like you know, behind the scenes extras, it kind of makes you like the movie more. It makes you enjoy the movie more. So I would be interested to see that twenty eighteen documentary. But until then, listeners, what do you think of The Five Heartbeats? Have you seen it? Am I wrong on this one? Is deaf Dave right? You know he literally is deaf Dave Right.

58:39 I was, Yeah, I set you up for that one. You can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x You can check out www dot a film by podcast dot com for all of our episodes that are streaming free, as well as some film and TV article. You can write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some of a film by swag Deaf. I gotta thank you again. I knew that I wanted to talk about this movie when I was looking at our our new season and you were the first and only name that popped in my head.

59:23 Is like, I gotta get him again. The The Apples and Oranges podcast. That was a very fun time talking about the Beatles and the Beach Boys, and then you got this. You're kind of like, like I said, you know, you're like the podcast personality, but you also, uh, you got you got a pretty fun Facebook page that you've been doing lately. Yeah. I've set up a public page. I hope everybody will come find me there and follow me. It's just simply you know, dot com slash the Deaf Dave and I just put fun stuff up there and also where you can track all my various podcast appearances because I'm kind of a no mad guest right now, I'm liable to pop up with any number of shows. But I do thank you for joining us deaf Day, and to all of you listening to the show, following us on social media, subscribing to our Patreon, we absolutely thank you.