Taylor Hackford - White Nights

0:00 Angela. Do you have a favorite cinematic dancer. Oh, totally, Patrick Swayze, Oh that's so good. Yes, I mean I grew up with that dirty dance and oh my gosh, I wanted to. I would practice those steps in my living room. I so bad, be baby, and I love that soundtrack. I played it all, Oh my god, constantly. We had it on record, and I think even about that time, maybe Casseetsia we're coming out. Yeah, but I mean Cynthia Rhodes, I mean she watching her, I mean she was just amazing. I was like I wish I could. Yeah, but definitely Patrick Swayzee.

0:40 Would I love that answer? Jeff, how about you? I feel like you don't have an answer, but surprise. I'll surprise you. I'll surprise you with an Amber Lewis answer. I'll just no, it's gotta be. It's gotta be Ryn McCormick ninety eight four's Footloose, Kevin Bacon. But if you know, because like you know, Wren had all the moves. But I'll tell you the moves I really enjoyed. Uh, Jennifer Bill's flash Dance. Yeah, yes, what a feeling. What I was I was, I was straight up an adult. Before I learned that they were strippers, I thought they just were exotics, so naive. So of course I have many answers to this question. But for me, in terms of like all over talent with acting, dancing, singing, and directing, my favorite is Gene Kelly.

1:39 Oh wow, you went classic. That's that's what I did. He makes me so happy. So speaking of dancing, though, let's talk about a film by Taylor Hackford, his nineteen eighty five underrated film White Knights. Welcome to the Film By Podcast.

2:19 I'm Amber Lewis, I'm Jeff Johnson. I'm Angela Norris, and we are going back to the dance studio for this film. Listeners may remember our Black Swan episode from earlier this year, and now we are revisiting another dance film, Taylor Hackford's White Knights, starring dance legends Mikhail Barishnikoff and Gregory Hines. Friends, I've got some trivia for you about Taylor Hackford. This was fun because I did not know hardly anything about him, but he joins our list of directors that have also directed music videos. He directed the music video for Against All Odds by Phil Collins, and he also directed that film and then the Oscar winning song for this film, Lena Richie's say You Say Me, Well, he directed it mm hmm, directed both cool videos and kind of became known for like his movie had the big hit song with it. He was kind of that guy for a while, but then he deliberately kind of steered away from it. He was like, I was tired of being that guy.

3:27 I think that was a mistake because when he stopped being that guy, he just kind of though off the radar a little bit. I think, yes, the eighties were definitely his heyday. I think yeah, I look through his filmography just because I just to be familiar with him. But since you brought up against all odds, I actually watched that for the first time last summer. Loved the song, have always loved the song, so I knew the song well before the story, and I was so disappointed by the movie. What I'm like on your Heads. I love I love Jeff Bridges. Yes, I love Jeff Bridges, but I mean I I wanted to stop watching the movie, but I finished it to completion because I wanted to have a truth and I was just like, that is a one and done and the song is definitely a lot better.

4:19 I just enjoy the song. Yeah, it's fine. Yeah. So I was like, don't don't get me started on Rachel Ward. I have lots of I know, I grew up with Thornbirds with my mom. I got you know what, right, Like. The thorn Birds is like the outlier. But the rest of her movie I. Just like, oh my god, was this? It was this? It was this the best at this time? Okay, okay, I get it. Yeah, all right, well let's swerve and talk about a better actress. Taylor Hackford met his future wife, Helen Mirren while making this film, but it was not love at first sight for her. He tells the story that when they first met, she was furious with him because he made her wait when she came into audition, and like had no problem telling him that she was not pleased like most actors you think are going in like please hire me, you know, and would not do anything to rock the boat. And she went in and was like, well do.

5:26 You know who I am? Well then she made him wait twelve years before Mary. Right, I don't think he's complaining, right. I wonder what he did to convince her because she had Valic. She just she said she's never getting married and she. Didn't have kids. But they've been yet together since ninety seven, so good on them. And then the last bit of trivia a little bit sad, but it is a beautiful story. During post production on this film, Taylor Hackford's mother was ill and was dying, and he went to the studio to ask for time off to be with his mom, and the studio head of Columbia Pictures looked at him and said, hey, man, you've only got one mom and gave him two months off to be with her for take care of her the end of her life. And then at the end of the credits, the film is dedicated to her and to Jerry Benjamin, who is the father of one of the film's executive producers, Stuart Benjamin. So it's kind of a unique story of a studio head not being a soulless money grubbing Sure.

6:35 It's nice. That's a nice change of pace, honestly. Because I mean, you finish and they're like, okay, we want it yesterday, you know. And then I love his quote that I found. He says, when I finish a film, I put it away and I never look at it again. Occasionally I do, because of the DVDs and the commentary tracks, but I usually just put it aside and go on to the next And I watched this. I bought a copy and watched this with the director's commentary on, and you could totally tell his not looked at a single frame in like twenty years, because he kept getting distracted. He was like all over the place. He'd be in the mall of story and he's like, oh wait, I have to tell you how to set up the shot.

7:18 I got adorable. I gotta ask what, how good is a Taylor Hackford audio commentary? Because some directors are fantastic and some you're better off listening to paint dry Looking at you, Tim Burton, How's Taylor Hackford? He is a little in the technical side for me, Like there're the airplane crash in this film. He goes in depth of how they set it up and like which parts of the shot were forced perspective and which parts were you know, miniatures, and but he does tell a good anecdote about how he was like ready to strangle the stunt coordinator because you really only want to do this once, and he the stunt coordinator insisted on being the one to push the button and set off the detonation for the explosion, and he went too fast and did not wait until the opportune moment. And Hackford's like, I'm pissed at him to this day. So love from column, I love from Columbach To answer your question.

8:27 Okay, I appreciate a good grudge holding right, I still have one against the Academy Awards for not giving the oscar to Nicole Kimman Formulan Rouge. All right, well, let's get to talking about this film. The winner of one Academy Award, the nineteen eighty five film White Knights. Jeff, for those of us who haven't seen it, give us a synopsis. So it's celebrating what it's fortieth anniversary this month? God he five, So can I give you? I give you a synopsis in like the movie trailer. Try the movie trailer? Guy everg oh yeah? In a world, yeah. All right, you want to know about White Knights?

9:10 In a world where night is bright white. A plane makes an emergency land against Siberia. Ballet dancer Nikolai Ratchenko is recognized as a defector, brought into custody returned to Leningrad and reunited with his former love, aging prima ballerina Galina Enova played by the electrifying Helen Mirren. Nikolai meets American dancer Raymond Greenwood, who defected to the Soviet Union during the Vietnam War but has secretly grown disenchanted. Together, they plot an escape to the American consulate and freedom right.

9:51 Very good, So, Angela, I never get to do those. It was a good one. You. I can't do the voice, so I'm impressed. So, Angela, I have seen this movie like callous times. It was on heavy HBO rotation back in the day, which made it easier. Was this the first time watched for you? Did you watch it? And yes, last night was the first time I've watched it. I even yeah, I know about this or heard of it. Yeah, so this was new to me. Oh my goodness, Jeff, what about you? This was first time? Yeah, it's the first time, right, you know. Looking back beginning season when we did the the Black Swan episode, I was like, let's Amber loves the Ballet. Let's let's throw a cool.

10:42 That was a great movie. Didn't didn't think we'd be at the end of the season doing another ballet ish type of movie. So, but I gotta say, uh, I'm glad we're celebrating the anniversary. I'm glad you pushed for this one. I'm glad I watched it. Oh good, all right, we are going to take a quick break and then we're going to get into talking about this cast. Okay. So my whole entire reason for watching this movie and my obsession for a long time. Makil Berrishnikov one of the greatest ballet dancers ever, definitely the greatest of his generation. He had already been nominated for an Oscar and a Golden Globe for the nineteen seventy seven film The Turning Point before taking the role of Richenko in this Are we fans? Were you fans before?

11:42 Okay, so I'm familiar with the name. Never saw a performance. Jesus Man, my friend, this guy. It's like it's like you took the DNA of Dracula, Willem Dafoe, Kevin Bacon's dancing, probably a little bit of Rutger Hower and you just blend it up and you and the result you pour it out and it's it's this guy. I was completely blown away by the opening ten minutes of this movie. This performance he puts on. That ballet is mind blowing.

12:23 I was. I was in awe. I really was, because I'll be honest with you, it's like, you know, ballet dancer finds another dancer and they're gonna work together. I'm gonna play along. But that attitude was gone after I watched this opening performance of this this French ballet that he does. Impressive. Oh, I'm so glad you think so, Angela. Were you a fan of Bershnakoff before. I'd heard of him? But I was mainly introduced when he was Carrie Bradshaw's boyfriend. I'm blowing to be like, I have worshiped Brushiakv since I was like three years old. Like you don't understand, like ballet was in our home, so I just like.

13:11 Yeah it. Is. I'm like what but to be fair dancing? Yeah, to be fair? Didn't you grow up in this world like where? I mean, like you were like an ice skater, you did ballet like that was it's kind of your thing, right. Like my mother was her mother was a ballerina. I have I have yet to to ice skate or dance in my life. So I. Mean soccer is kind of like I. Play soccer ballet, all right, you got the guy's amazing.

13:53 But I knew of Gregory Hines. I knew him, Oh you did, Yes, I knew him, So I I I knew of that, but yeah, I was not familiar with the mckil's fantastic dance background and talent. This is a little kind of biographical film for him because, like his character, he defected to Canada in nineteen seventy four and then came to the US like right after that, and he was unable and of course unwilling to return to Russia while filming this movie. So the scenes in Leningrad where they're you know, running on the street at the end and they're escaping, like all of that in Leningrad was a stunt double.

14:44 I can appreciate him being a little worried about going home to Mother Russia. I mean, he couldn't. He would have been arrested the minute he got there. But he never did go back. He's he's actually Latvians. So when Latvian uh declared their independence in the nineties, he went back there, but he never went back to you know, the former Soviet Union. I wouldn't be surprised if he's uh got like I mean, I'm sure he's obviously got like dual citizenship, but I wouldn't be surprised if he didn't have one for for France, because like he speaks, maybe you're the you're the expert on French dialect and not well. For this podcast I am.

15:26 I feel like he does a pretty convincing uh French accent. Though, yes, he speaks fluent French so well. I think it's funny that he speaks fluent French with a French accent but speaks English with a very thick Russian accent, and he's lived here for fifty years. Like that's interesting, It's unusual. Yeah, it is. Yeah, you can take the Boy out of Russia, but Russia out of the boy. This film was made when he he was the artistic director for the American Ballet Theater. He was in his thirties, which is considered basically past your prime in the dance world, and he was plagued by injuries, mostly to his knee and his ankle. He actually sprained his ankle performing Don Quixote and had to He sprained his ankle during the performance, had to finish the performance doing a double pirouet on that ankle, and then took two curtain calls and passed out.

16:36 Hey real quick. Uh, for all the for all the gentlemen listening right now who aren't upped on their ballet, A pure wet, A pure wet is Uh, it's guys. It's that that move where you you're on like your tiptoes and you spin around real fast. Yes, Jeffrey remembers from Pretty Black saunam impressed. Uh. Yeah, you know, Hey, I'm here to provide like eleven pier wets of male perspective with you two on white nights because like I love and I'd almost step on scenes. But you know, the the eleven peer wet scene was pretty pretty dope. So well, I'm glad that you could appreciate that moment because you really can't appreciate how impossible that is to do, Like it can't be done, and yet he does it and doesn't even do it like struggling. He does it with ease.

17:32 Hey, I'm gonna tell you right now, the first slick floor I get back to, I'm I'm going for it. If he can he can do eleven, I could say I could probably get five. I'm over thirty eight or so, I'm a little past my prime. And then for one good one, Jeff, you would probably do best with the risky business move. We'll settle for that. Just bust out the white sox and the white button up shirt, you know. All right, we'll give you some rules for that. That sounds more like Jennifer Bial's flash dance, but we'll see the night's young.

18:16 Bust out that water bucket. Oh my god, it just went off the rails so quick. Oh, it's gonna happen. Finally, just to kind of underline the athleticism necessary to do what Misha can do, he had to do physical therapy for three hours before he could start dancing for his scenes in this film, and Gregory Hines was feeling kind of stiff, and he was like, you know, I'm gonna do some of your pet you know, before we film, and he was like screaming, like the thing therapist went to work on his vessels. He was like, oh my god, how do you survive this brush of cops? Like, eh, just as this is a Tuesday for me, I don't know what to tell. So Gregory Hines, we have the greatest ballet dancer in the world. Now we have the greatest tap dancer in the world, also a black belt in karate.

19:21 I did not know that about him. I didn't either. Well, I mean, to be fair, he's not typically doing karate in his films. I mean, even you know, we covered Running Scared on our limited nineteen eighty six series. I don't remember any karate from Gregory Hines in that movie. I remember, I remember cut off shirts and roller skates and right Shine, Sweet Freedom, But I don't remember any karate mows. So, I mean, he kind of busts out a few kicks and in this movie you have in a stylized kind of way. But I thought it was just part of Twilat Tharpe's choreography because she is very avant garde like. And then during the commentary, Taylor Hackford was incredibly impressed with Gregory Heines' karate skills.

20:08 Well, you have to be impressed by Gregory Hines his dancing, while it's not ballet. He's one of the greatest tap dancers. He was one of the greatest tap dancers of all time. I have to believe. I know, a couple of years back, a couple of seasons back we did Francis Ford Coppola is The Cotton Club, and his dancing in that is just phenomenal. I know, Deaf Dave's probably listening and he's keeping count. That's two nineteen eighty four movies I've already mentioned, so name he's loving it. I'm sure right. The interesting thing about his introduction in this film, he's performing there's a boat that's leaving soon for New York from Poor Game Bess, and he had actually already played sport and life in Poorga and Bress on Broadway in the sixties, so this was familiar territory to him. And you might think it was unusual to have a Gershwin tune in Siberia being like okay for the audience to watch, but they actually were okay with it because it talks about the poverty and racial oppression of African Americans in America, so it's basically talking about America is not wonderful, and so the Russians were like, yeah, absolutely, you can do that show.

21:27 I would like to interject that even though I was not fully aware of Mikhail, I recognized the Gershwin song as well as the. Musical that he was singing that pro so I knew those thanks to Barber Streisan. I was familiar with them. With that so I recognized that. The interesting thing is about that song is the Gershwin Estate has like an iron class grip on how and when and where his music can be performed, and poor game best can only be done with a cast of people of color. So Taylor Hackford had to like search and finally found this woman from whose Bekistan to hire to play Bess in that scene, and like right to the Gershwin Estate and be like, Okay, she's not white, she's from who's Bekkistan, It's okay to get the permission to use that song, which I didn't know that either.

22:34 I was. I learned all kinds of fascinating things about the making of this movie. And then the last little bit of trivia about Gregory Hines. Did you know he is on a hostage stamp really yep in twenty seventeen as part of the Black Heritage series. Nice and it's a really great picture. I was interested to see, is it, like, you know, an action him dancing or is it just his face or whatever? And it's a full body He's sitting down and his foot is like prominent in the foreground, so you can see he's wearing tap shoes. So it's a neat picture. That's a that's a good that's a good call. It's good choice.

23:14 So moving on to Jeff's favorite part of the movie, Miss Helen Marrin playing Galina Ivanova. We all perk up when she walks on. Yeah, have you have you? Those legs come on like you. Have, and the way she moves like you have no doubt that she used to to be a ballerina. Like she absolutely sells it. I have no doubt that if they had made the Avengers movie in nineteen eighty five, this is a black widow. Black widow. Yeah, yes, man, she's she is white hot for white Knights.

23:54 We've already discussed her because my my partner in All Things Space, Andrew Blakeley, and I covered the Peter Heims film twenty ten. She already played a Russian in that one. She played a cosmonaut. Her father was Russian, so she comes by the accent very, very easily. And what I love about her character I thought it was interesting that she plays the person that like doesn't really want to leave you know, I don't know about you, guys, but I remember learning in the eighties like Russia was horrible, they were evil, they were all going to kill us, and no one wanted to live there. So now, with advantage of time and perspective, you know, to see a character that, you know, she recognized that there were problems, but she loved her country. She wanted to stay, she didn't want to leave.

24:42 Well, I mean, it's nineteen eighty five. Look at the movies that are coming out this year. You know, you've got like an evil Russian person in a view to a kill you. You've got Rocky going over to Russia to fight Ivan Drago. The Russians were bad guys. That's serious. Yeah the way. Look, I'll say it. I don't give a ship like they're still They're still bad guys like you guys probably don't know. But a lot of our content for this this show, it does not get to Russia like they I get. I get blocks all the time from YouTube and other places like this content is not available in Russia. Wow, their lost, you know, enjoy our blue jeans. I guess I don't know.

25:27 Oh my gosh, how do we feel about Isabella? Roussolini's non Russian accent. I think she is as beautiful as her mother, but like her mother, you know, ingrid Bergmann was Swedish in every damn movie she made. It didn't matter who she was playing or how she was playing it. And Isabella Rosselini, like she is Italian, she will only ever be Italian. She can't nott be Italian. Yeah, I was like, no, you're you're not Russian, you lie. I picked up on that right away. It was like, no, it's not a thing. But she's so beautiful and she reminds me so much of her mother. Like it's kind of rude to say, but this was just her first movie, so she didn't have a whole lot of you know, skill to begin with. So that's all I saw was, you know, baby ingrid Bergman.

26:19 Okay, so you know, I did pick up on the opening credits where it says introducing Isabella Rosselini, And I'm not saying anything about her acting ability. I thought she did good, but you know, maybe maybe I'm on my own here, but I don't get it. I don't think she's really overly attractive, Like I know she was on Ross's list on Friends. You know, they had that fun episode where she she walked into Central Perk and he got to make it. He got to make his move. But I I've never understood it, Like I don't. I don't really see it really. I think she's a decent actress. But comes her no in the lass.

27:02 No, I'm too busy checking out Goldie and Maryland that one. I'm sorry, I just I don't get the whole Isabella Rosal anything. I just don't just not your type. I guess she. Could walk, I could. It could be nineteen eighty five. I'm walking down the street, she's walking. I'm just gonna keep I'm just gonna pass her by. I'm sorry, I just am. She was like a huge international model too, like she was the Faith of lank Why. I don't And then they fired her for being too old at forty three, I know. But then they got a female CEO and she headed her back and she. Went off and yeah, I did some cool things on her own. So yes, anyway, that would be a different rabbit hole that. Right, the listeners can go down the way so we can rant about that off.

27:45 My definitely look into that. It's very interesting when you see like the things that she did and how she turned that around. It's yes, very okay, yeah, and again hear me, were I am an Italian. I'm all for her. I listen, I'm all for her accomplishment. And like I said, she's not a bad actress. And it's not that she's I'm not saying that she's not beautiful. I'm just saying, you know, she's not my cup of vodka. No, no, Well, as far as with this, even if it was like her, I don't know if it was her first film or just her first national film. Okay, was her actual first film, you know from coming from the you know legacy that she did. I get why you know that that those doors were open, but beyond the kind of like yeah, she even says it's a beautiful lady, but beyond I mean she yeah.

28:35 She even says in an interview like people came to her and wanted her to be in movies, and she was like, I mean, I get it that my parents are, but I don't know why they one in't me? Right? Were we all so excited for John Glover Lionel Luther the Spy? Yes, my god did coming had I. No memory of him being in this movie. He's even got a cool name. He's Win Scott. I love John Glower. Oh my god, I just watched this last night and my brain is scrambling to figure out what you're talking about. My gosh, oh guy, the c I a guy with the glass, the young guy that helps get him out at the end. Watched with Helen marrin where he's like, I'll call you and have you come to.

29:31 A guy who wound up being and scrooged. Okay, because I thought that was him with the spie. I was like, I'm pretty sure that. Was the yes, Okay, yeah, he's Grimlins. I apologize. Yeah, brain re engaged. And I got a big kick also out of Geraldine Page as Anne Wyatt uh Colea's manager. Like she's a legend of stage and screen. I understand this, but for me it doesn't matter. She's Madame Medusa from the Rescuers and she freaking ate the scenery in this movie. She is such a trip.

30:15 She was fun to watch. I did enjoy seeing when she was playing aletely different movie. Oh yeah, yeah, she's absolutely like where does this lady come from? But you know what, I'm interested. She's she's sass in the the KGB. She'm like, I respect her. She's she's Jill Assassin, the CIA guy too. She was like, I will go right out there to the press. No, I liked her, Amber. You uh, you're talking about screen legends. Maybe maybe maybe this this person's on the list. I don't know if I'm if I'm cutting in. You are you're stepping on my toest, But you go right ahead, cuz no, no, no.

30:57 I please give it, you know, because there's I saw someone. I was like, yes, is that who we're talking about? Blink and you miss her? Okay? We have a bomb girl, we do, but I couldn't. I couldn't place her, Okay, so I recognized her immediately. It was like, a is that that's got to be her? Amber, I'll let you have that one because I'm thinking of someone else. Actually, oh well, so you. Were not thinking of Mary and Miriam Dabo uh in the two second scenes smooching on Bershnikov in his dressing room. Hey, I I love her. Yeah, she's like the girl. I was like, where was she at for like one literally blink and you miss her? Like one second?

31:43 I love her. In a film we did called Greedy last season, I love her in Conyan the Destroyer, which will probably never cover. But yeah, well good movies. We love Ambro was talking about, So who were you thinking of? Then? Oh? Okay, so I know you saw him. But now I'll tell you what. Let's play a little little word association. I'm gonna give you film titles until you give me his name. I'm never going to get this. Okay, okay, Flash Gordon Raiders of the Lost Arc Batman, No nothing.

32:27 I mean I could tell you who's in this with not three? How about? How about how about Jet Porkins in Star Wars. Wait, that guy was? Where was he? A Flash Gordon? William Hootkins, He's he's the He's the the guy at the end of Raiders Top Men. No, I know who he is, but damn it, he was. He was Munson under the Bumbling Yeah you got you the beginning of it. Munson. Oh he's in it probably two seconds. Well it still counts. Yes, William Howkins is here. He's like he's like John Lover's sidekick. I did not recognize him all.

33:07 He meets Telamren at the Market's so funny. He was great. Yeah, the potato guy. Yes, William Howkins. I did not recognize him at all, even for a second. I don't know what it is about this Like we, I think film nerds especially like we just we love this guy. You know, he's like our generations John Ratzenberger being in all the Pixar movies. Yeah, he just shows that he's like he's in all the cool you know universes, yes, and always like kind of a cool guy. Hoots Yep, that's awesome, all right, and then for like one last kind of cast uh appearance, like well miss not appearing in this film. But we have to give credit to Twila Tharp because she took dancers that could not be more different, like Gregory Hines is a foot and a half taller than Borshnakoff, and their styles are just there's absolutely nothing about them that's alike. And she was able to take these two and take their improvisations and marry it into one great thing. I am. I've always loved her choreography, but I'm completely blown away by what she did with this movie.

34:27 I really enjoyed the scene of them dancing side by side when they were make make their decide when they were. Gonna make their move. I really enjoyed, enjoyed that scene. And but we're gonna talk about that scene, right, Oh yeah, all right, and I'll just I'll just be quiet. Then I'll wait build to that. Let's talk a little bit about production first. I have the best story. I love this story so much. So it's the height of the Cold War. Taylor Hackford cannot take a film crew to Lennon. So he's got stand in locations at like Scotland stands in for Siberia, Helsinki stands in for Leningrad for some of the shots where they're going in and out of buildings and stuff like that.

35:14 And then he wanted to have actual footage though of Leningrad for establishing shots and like when they're in the car and stuff like that. So he hires a Finnish travel company and gets permission for them to film a travelog in Leningrad in a Chika limo, and he sends him to Russia and Bresto cost telling him we're never going to see them again. They're not going to get any footage. They're probably going to get arrested. And this was a bad idea. They lose all contact with the crew. They have no idea what's going on. And so they're still shooting in Helsinki and the next thing, you know, two weeks later, the cruise sho shows up and they have all the footage Hackford asked for.

36:07 That's incredible because this is I mean, I have to believe that they're shooting in like late eighty four or late eighty five mm hmm. They go in, they with cameras and they and they still come out. That's that's that's something. And they're like, oh, we're just showing people if they want a vacation in sunny Leningrad. You said, here's where the Lenin statue is, and like the Russians totally bought it, and it all made it into the movie. And Hackford is like so proud of this, like he talks about almost nothing else on this commentary, and he is so pissed to this day because there were critics that were like, oh, whatever, he just filmed in Helsinki, like it's not even real Russia.

36:55 And he's like, damn it, it is though. Oh, but back then he can't say that, right because you get these Yah, I didn't know how pissed Taylor. Yeah that's not real Russia. Yeah, it actually really is. And then the part that like kind of hurt my heart a little was they brought the footage back and he showed it to Berushnakov, who had not been home in like ten years at this point, and he said he just sat there for like four hours just watching this footage of of them like traveling around where he used to live, and like that was my street, that's the building my apartment was in.

37:38 That had to be a heartbreaker. I guess I can't understand that. Yeah, for sure. We mentioned that this film won an OSCAR for Best Original Song for Say You Say Me by Lionel Richie. It's really this movie is really it's all about the dance sequences and the soundtrack. It really wasn't much known for, you know, didn't get the acting nods or anything like that. I can, but can we talk about I have to say, hang on, say You Say Me is not my favorite song from this soundtrack. Of course, of course it's not. Can we can we talk about the soundtrack for a minute? Are I have some opinions on are we team Chi or are we Team Phil Collins? Those are the two theme songs.

38:20 We're Team Collins all the way baby, Thank God? Oh about that? So I love the Phil Collins song. But when I was watching the movie and they played that, I was like, I thought this was a song about a couple or someone who had an affair, and they're well, yeah, they're breaking, you know, breaking apart, and I get that they were part of the Princes was trying to give the illusion that that's what was going on, but it. Just still did not seem to fit. And even when I looked, you know, online, you know about that, it was listed as like the love theme of White Knights, So. I just is it though I don't know, I felt like it was more Helen Maren and Mikhail Bershnakov's song.

39:04 Okay, that makes sense because it seemed like they were playing that in the scenes with Ray and his wife and that It just was very disconnected in my brain. But now that you say that, yes, that but I think so I'm gonna say it worked. It works in two ways, because it definitely is is uh you know, it's it's what what Angela, what you were just talking about, like with them having separate lives, you know, because he you know, he makes the ultimate sacrifice. But I also kind of feel it's It's also for uh, Mikhail and Helen because their set, like they had there they were in love and they had to separate and you know they didn't want.

39:45 To, but he just straight up left or like they were in London. On tour and yeah, okay, but still, I mean, I feel like it works. It's the love theme, but it works for both couples, and you know, to your point, it's nominated for the academ Award, loses to the line Richie song, which was not even allowed to be on the soundtrack originally because Richie's people were like, yeah, we don't he's just coming back. We don't want his first big hit to be not with our label. But can I do something real quick for our buddy Jason Colvin Because this song Separate Lives. It ends up the number one hits, the number one spot on the Billboard Top one hundred and if you listen to the show You Can't Be Serious podcast, you know, Jason always loves to say can I give you? Can I give you what was the top ten that that week? And be He's always like lay it on me. So Jason, I know you're listening The week that Separate Lives by Phil Collins and Marilyn Martin hit number one. Here was the top ten leading up to it, Number ten Sleeping Bag by zz top number nine, Party All the Time by Eddie Murphy and that song's a jam.

40:59 I love that song. You gotta love that song. At number eight, Election Day by Arcadia Crickets. I don't I don't know that one. At number seven, Who's Zoom and Who by Aretha Franklin. That's a good one. It's a good one, but like, what's what's that mean in nineteen eighty five? Because today it works. You know, we're all zooming right now. I just don't understand. Then at number six, Yeah, at number six, Lay Your Hands on Me by The Thompson Twins. At number five Never by Heart. Oh the amount of times I played that song.

41:41 And it only gets better ladies, at number four, You Belong to the City by Glenn Fry, at number three, Broken Wings by Mister Mister, and number two We Built This City by Starship. Oh my God, that freaks. And then of course a number one of course everyone song, Separate Lives by Phil Collins's That's for Jason Colvin. That's a good top ten, Yeah, it's great. Top ten So speaking of the soundtrack, this is gonna blow your mind. The scene where they have their first rehearsal and Misha says, I'm gonna go take a shower and really sneaking out and trying.

42:23 To get them James bonds it. It's awesome. I actually my brain went to Sylvester Salon sneaking out of the bathroom and Victory. But good move. Okay, yeah, I like where your head's at. But so anyway, so Gregory Hines Raymond is back in the studio and he's feeling inspired for the first time in a long time, and he just starts to improvise and starts to dance in a way that he has with a freedom that he hasn't in a long time, and that whole sequence, Gregory Hines improvised the entire thing to no music. What shut up? Taylor Hackford sends it to David Foster, sends him the footage and is like, make me a song, and David Foster did.

43:17 Oh wow, that's insane, Like you. You've ever heard improvising Like that's the heart of tap anyway, So that's just his genius that you're filming like, it's amazing. In his head though, right while he's doing those amazing moves. I don't know, And how do you score? But how do you reverse. Yeah and make it? Yeah, that's some wicked reverse engineering there, that's yeah. Like my mind was freaking blown. How do we feel about the way the dance sequences were were filmed? It was a little bit different than what we usually get.

44:05 Hackford didn't want to do a you know, let's put on a show kind of you know, fifties musical kind of stop everything and dance kind of park the camera, and so I liked the movement. I thought it really especially when Hines was dancing. His dancing's so kinetic that I felt it really worked really well. I don't know, what do you guys think? Was it dispacting? No? Well, Ember, you know, you know, I'm not the musical guy, right, But my interpretation of it in this movie, like we get these dance numbers to kind of let us know how these characters are working out their issues.

44:46 I feel like they were using dance like to a mote, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it's the old Bob Fosse quote. When you can't you feel so much, you can't speak, you sing, and when you feel so much you can't saying you dance? Yeah, I feel like it was just they were working out their frustrations, but they use dance to to get there. Because even when they're at at at each other's throats, it's it's it's fighting, but it's dance fighting. Mm hmm. It's like Michael Jackson's beat it with the gangs. You know. I don't know. I liked it. It was immediately pictured the star Lord, what are you doing?

45:36 It's it's Zoolander. They're break dance fighting. Yeah, I just I loved it. Angela, what did you think? Was it distracting or did you like it? No? I liked it because especially with that kind of movement, it kind of sweeps you away along with that. So yeah, I I wouldn't have liked that whole static and just seeing him just thing. But I I really well things you don't think of. I didn't realize until listening to the commentary. For the scenes in the studio, you know, onehole wall is a mirror and you don't want the camera to show, so they had to do all of this complicated tilting of the mirrors, and Hackford was talking about how it was great working with borishnakoffin Hinz because as dancers, they're used to repetition and do it again and do it again and do it again, and it was a challenge for the lighting crew and the cinematographer, you know, to have to constantly keep resetting and doing it again to make sure that you know, they got the most perfect version that they could get. That kind of complexity. I just it's something you don't think about when you're watching, but definitely appreciate it on like the next go around. All right, Jeff, we're here noteworthy scenes where he talked about the eleven pirouettes.

47:06 I mean that, like, I'm sorry, I could watch him do that all goddamn day, like we mentioned it. But I just love the idea that this is a scene, This is the moment where they're sizing each other up and they're using a simple wager, and Mikael's obviously hustling Gregory Hines because at like at seven rink, Yeah, he's like, he's like, it's seven. That's it's being difficult. It's no skating rink. He's like, well, I got I got ten rubles, eleven rubles. He's like, eleven rubles eleven Piirwetts and then he just does it flawlessly. I was like, man, he got played, like. I love the look. That's all of our lucks, Like we were all just like what did I just see in the movie.

47:53 And I'm like, I know he's gonna do it. I'm watching because I'm like, he's gonna do it. But I I had to. I folk on his head and that's how I counted because he's like, you keep counting, Greg. Your head's like, oh, I'll keep count But it's so fast. He's like his body's like a blur and if you're not focused on his face, it's you're not gonna catch it. You're not gonna catch all eleven of them. And you can if you've watched a lot of dancers and they are like, okay, I'm gonna do as many as I can do, you know, and they're challenging each other or whatever. You can watch them kind of muscle or the last couple and it's you know, Okay, it counts because you went all the way around, but it wasn't Prey. Well, he's slowing down, yeah, but like slowing down.

48:35 But Jesus, they're still beautiful, like they're still perfect. It's no like he wasn't breaking. He didn't break a sweat, like even a little. It's any scenes that you feel or noteworthy that don't have dance in them. Yes, I liked the. Scene with Helen Mirren Mikail, but she's blaring that music. And even though I don't understand what they're saying, Mikail does bring up you're blaring this music that's basically about you know, freedom or you know kind of you know, a this isn't right kind of a thing.

49:18 As an actor, it's a it's a protest poet. It's a Russian poet. Yeah, and but yet you know, she doesn't want to leave and she's there. She really wants to make you know that that dance you know, happen and just you know when they get into that and she starts crying and you know, like I mean, she's a wonderful, wonderful actress, but I think definitely her in that role, she was definitely the of you know, the top acting for you know, not. Dogging on Isabella. I'm not trying to you know, dog in her, but but that alone, I really. She just has that ability. It was okay, you know, she makes you like lean when she comes when she was in there, and that, like, that was the one scene where I really felt connected to the character a little bit more because I you know, it was very believable and she was just you know, I communicated well, you know with that. So I really liked that back and forth and then with you know, why he had things.

50:20 I really liked that scene. Yeah, that was only a very powerful moment. I don't expect an intense action scene in a movie like this, but there they're planned to escape at the end when he does this death defying jump from the the window to like the the exposed iron strut that's like six feet out. But because he's a dancer, it's like he's just part of it's perfect movements, and he's got the rope that they've they've fashioned that whole scene, I'm I'm like gripping the arm rest because I know he's gonna make it, because he's Bryshnikov.

51:04 He's our hero, Like, come on, he's the hero. But then when you know, and again first time watch, so when they fashion this hook rope seat for Isabelle's Rosalini and she gets stuck halfway, I'm now I'm seeing Cliffhanger with stallone and I'm like, oh, she's gonna splatter and it'll break our hearts because she's pregnant. But but then she survives, and I'm like, okay, well, I just thought, okay, well naturally, now we're gonna see some cool swing across, like the rope will break and Gregor Heinzel swing across pitfall Harry style and then they make their escape and then then he he knows that the KGB's coming and so he has to give himself up and it's a it's a heartbreaker of ra moment because then he throws the rope and he you know, mouths the words I love you to uh to Isabella, and I'm like, I didn't see that coming. I okay, sure. I love that scene though, And there's no dancing in it, No, there's not.

52:05 There's acrobatics. Yes, when he was jumping on those truts, I was like, are they gonna make this pregnant woman. Do the same thing? And it gets over. I'm like, okay, now. Okay, Angela, I was with you, like, there's no if she jumps and hits even one strut, I'm I'm calling bullshit, I'm turning off. There's no way she could do it. But I liked that they had a way to make it work well. And I liked that it was just enough like sneaking out of your parents' house Keystone Cops, kind of like ridiculousness that only the truly despot or to even try.

52:49 And it was honestly blind lock that it worked. Yeah, it shouldn't have worked, but it was believable enough. Honestly, yes, for me. The non dancing scene that got me was, I mean, he does do a couple of steps, but when Koya is on stage at the Cure off alone after he says goodbye to Helen Maren and he's just thinking about everything he gave up and everything he's giving up again, and he cries like, oh my gosh, like it made my tummy hurt. I was like, oh, this is gut wrenching.

53:31 It's so sad. But before we get to pivotal moment, can we can we talk? Can we talk one more scene? Yeah, and listen, I don't want to break your brain because I want to talk about a dance scene. We got it, can we I don't think we talked enough about this amazing opening amber. You know, we got eight minutes of dance and uh, correct my one. Of the most brilliant ballets, Le Petito l More. Glad you said that I had written down the young Man and Death. Yeah, I had a le June ham a lot more.

54:13 Oh, I'm sorry, Le. It sounds so much better when you're a small man. The young man, Yeah, my young Man and Death. Yeah, I can't. I can't do choreograph. My role on Petit who is was just a genius. I gotta say, uh, if if you're if you're a guy, you're a guy's guy who's like, I'm not watching a movie about ballet dancers and whatever. You gotta watch this eight minutes and it will change your mind. It will make you appreciate the beauty of this particular type of dance. I just I was all in after that. After that, after that performance, I was like, I really don't care if the movie sucks at this point. I'm glad I watched it. And the movie doesn't suck, by the way, But that scene, that opening scene, because we go from that and we segue right into an epic plane crash that you kind of highlighted earlier at the top of the hour, I'm like, what's next, Helen Marrin's next? We just keep going from action scene to action scene. Man, better and better, You're just getting better and better.

55:19 Yeah. Yeah. The the athleticism necessary to perform this ballet is just out of this world. And that's the whole point. This is why Borisharakoff himself defected was and this is why Kola defected in the movie. Because they weren't allowed to travel, they weren't allowed to do these kind of modern avant garde, you know, new things. They were stuck doing just you know, classical, very strict. Yeah, Swan Lake, then at Cracker you know. Ember, can I can I ask this because I'm going to assume that you are familiar with that that ballet.

56:07 M So I'm watching it and I'm going to assume that it's not about a guy who's fighting with his girlfriend or lover or whatever. I feel like the female character in that moment is his subconscious like he's he's fighting in his mind. That mean min is something there or yeah, you kind. Of got it, like she is he is. It's about a man who is driven to suicide by his faithless lover, and so the woman kind of represents that, but she really is death, and that's really she is. Death is seducing him. Yeah I thought I thought like it was. It's not an actual female, it's the female forum represented by you know, Death and his subconscious telling him like, this is your way, this is the only way. Yes, yes, I've got I've got culture. I got it. I'm very sul.

57:08 We're on a roll. We've done the Shakespeare. Now we're doing dance. Like I'm talking Ballet and Conan the Destroyer. The multitudes people like. Not that's right, all right, Well, the pivotal moment. We all know what it is. You wait the whole movie for it, for these two guys to finally dance together. I wanted it to last forever. I never wanted it to end. It's I mean, they're running and it's ballet, and it's tap dancing, and it's break dance fighting, it's it's everything wrapped up in this hybrid dance number that just blow your mind. And they're in sync, like like, oh man, unbelievable.

57:57 I love the moment. Yeah, and this was I had this as at a moment. Actually this was like I was like, all right now we're all on the same team. We know what the objective is. I loved it, Angela, how did you feel? I really enjoyed it. And I like that, you know, at least even though the dance and the type is different from one another, that it still was the thing that brought them. You know, that was the thing that made him feel alive. That's connected and sacrifice, that one constant, that's who they are. You know, how can that not be worth the you know, trying to get I think that was one up here for different reasons, different circumstances, things like that.

58:39 But what is worth that risk and anyone? Yeah, I like that. You see them come together, but there's no like unbelievable moment of like and we're brothers now. You know, it's like, okay, there's no animosity, and we like each other and we're kind of starting to respect each other. But you know, it's believed. That was the main thing. Was Like, yes, it didn't have to be like, oh my god, you know, we're brothers from another mother or anything like that, but I think there was that mutual and genuine respect had kind of organically formed at dancing alongside one another. I'll have your bag. Yeah, I thought that was very well done where they didn't have to it was just the language of dance.

59:22 So yes, well, all right, friends, we're gonna take one last break and then we'll be back to wrap things up. All right, you too. If someone was unfamiliar with Taylor Hackford, he doesn't have a lot of films to choose from. But what three films would you suggest they watch? Do you appear with this, like we'll each take a spin let it one at a time. Yeah, let's do all right, all right, angela, ladies, First, what you got for us? I didn't realize he was the director of The Devil's Advocate, and I really did enjoy that movie, So I would make that. I freaking hate that we are completely opposite side.

1:00:07 I'm not hey, I'm not saying it's like in my top twenty fifty. Don't defend your choice. It's fine, like we don't like everything, but a list of what I've seen. That Yeah, wait, why are you hating a movie with Charlie's Throne and Keanu Reeves and uh, you know an. That's a discussion for another time. I will refer that one above against all odds every time, whoa oh, I know what Jeff's was. Yeah, all right, we can have a little side banter for the Patreon subscribers and. Yeah, we'll fight this out over on the Patreon.

1:00:50 All right, what's your number two? I'd say Officer and a Gentleman. That's a good classic. You know you got Richard gear and uh uh I almost said Wagner With this limited options, I kind of didn't. Really, I'm dying because I'm gonna go ahead and jump in like you're kind of like, well, it was fine. I love this movie so much, like I think this is Hackford's best movie. I just adore it. And I love the story that when they filmed the ending, both Hackford and Richard Gere were like, I don't know, it's kind of schmaltzy. And then they did a rehearsal and everybody in the factory was like cheering and crying and like losing their freaking minds, and they're like, well, so I guess we're keeping it, And.

1:01:46 Why if you don't know anything else? You know that scene? Yes, like that is a very yeah memorable and uh yes, against all odds, no, we can't no, I'm just doing now. She's just now you're just doing it. You remember back in season one, season one of The Simpsons, Homer and mar a officer gentleman moment. So yes, all right, so I stepped on your on your list, what's your number three? I probably would go with the Ray You're so unenthusiastic. I felt like I was.

1:02:30 Out of this list, like, yeah, I mean, isn't even like being really, I mean, at least you know, offerer and gentlemen. That's a classic. You got a classic scene. We got a fantastic song up where we belong, you know, with that which actually fit. So, I know, I kind of struggled with my three. Just yeah. I feel like if this question was, if someone's unfamiliar with this director, what three films would you suggest? Skip him? Really save yourself? He did nothing else you're you're gonna care about? You know? Sorry? Guy? I mean, if he did like music videos, go watch the music videos, all right, Jeff, bring us back.

1:03:18 I'm with Angela. I'm with Angela for an Officer and a Gentleman because it is fantastic. I assume that's on all three of our lists for recommendations. Just a sensational film. Lou Gossip Jr. At his best in this movie. Also, I gotta tell you I was pretty happy with Dolores Claiborne. You know, I read the book. I felt that's okay, so we're two for two. I saw that one, so I couldn't have an opinion the minute. Look Kathy Bates, Like you know everyone, everyone just thinks. If you say Stephen King and Kathy Bates, everyone's brain immediately goes to misery. Well that was such a well, yeah, you know what I'm saying. That's that's all I'm saying.

1:04:01 So that'd be my second one and at the top number one with a bullet. Against all Odds really one of the greatest PHILM. Collins songs ever. Bridges, just Jeff and all over the movie. I love it, Rachel Ward, Smoke Show, James Woods. Come on, gross, what are's supposed to be against? But he's a different level of girls. Like I said, Angela love the song love Jeff Bridges, Angela. Take a look at me, now, take a look at me now, and rewatch this movie. Angela coming back to against the Loads is against the odds, I think, too bad, but.

1:04:52 You know it's so funny. Watch this because I've seen just about all of Jeff Bridges is filmography, and but I don't think I ever saw one where he did not have a shirt on. And I was just like, oh, hello, well, how do you do? Jeff on the beach? I can't believe I'm talking about another ninety eighty four movie is doing backflips. At this point, He's like, I told you best you ever, best you ever? But I just could not What do you got that does not contain against all odds? My number one, like I said, Officer and a Gentleman is Taylor Hackford's best movie.

1:05:41 Dolores Claiborne was my next choice. Kathy Bates and Jennifer Jason Lee are just amazing, and Christopher Plummer playing a straight up just asshole, and David st who's like the sweetest guy ever and playing like this abusive husban and like, I loved the book and the movie is just as good, and that does not happen often. It's it's a very overlooked of the Stephen King adaptations. And then my number three from two thousand is Proof of Life with Meg Ryan and Russell Crowe. This movie kind of got buried in the whole gossip because they were having an affair and it was a whole shenanigans. But honest to God, like it's a good movie. Like it's really intense. So I definitely recommend. You know, now that some time has passed, Uh, it's worth a revisit.

1:06:39 Hey, I'm not taking against all odds off my list, but if it was, if it was four, then yeah, Lewis cheat, he was an Amber Lewis cheat I next to each other. Oh yeah. Proof of Life is fantastic, absolutely fantastic film. All right, So back to White Knights. Do we recommend this film? You know? I do. I think it's a must watch, even if it's only a one time watch. It's a must watch just for the performances. And I'm talking about the dance performances because it blew my mind to see what these guys were capable of. And I have I mean Amber, you know, you know how I talked about ballet on our Black Swan episode. I have nothing but respect for these dancers and how hard their job is and the pain that they put themselves through. And just to see him do this, you know several times of the movie. And Gregory Hines also not a ballet dancer, but just blowing the doors off it, you know, with his performance. You gotta watch it just for that and you know, great soundtrack and That's where I'm at with it.

1:07:51 Awesome angela A or Nay, I would agree with Jeff that for the dancing and to watch it at least once. Is it one of those that I will you know, revisit Probably not, uh, but for the dancing, absolutely, just you know, the running time, it could have been a bit shorter, but yeah, that his movies kind of it was a bit I felt like it was probably thirty forty minutes too long, but yes, but everything that was in between the dance sequences, it was hard. Like I'm like, I'm trying to stay investing this because I know something else is gonna kind of, you know, kind of happen. But it was just a little lukewarm, a little bit of a a good story that could have been a bit stronger.

1:08:40 And again, like hell, Maren's character, I mean, in her acting skill, I feel like she was kind of maybe slightly out of place in this movie just because her skill was you know, appear and or underutilized. Maybe or yeah, a little more Maren a little less maybe a little more little more. John Glover like, tell me what the speces you're doing to get him out? Yeah, give me some more hoo cans, I said, Amber, I know you got a physical copy of this, right I did. I got very affordable. It was ten bucks on Prime H for a DVD with all the features, and but it's also streaming on two B at the moment, so you can head on over there. You got commercials.

1:09:22 But that's what I want to warn people about. I'm just gonna say if you can tell if you're telling me I can get a ten dollars DVD shipped next next day or whatever, I think that's the way to go. Because when I met up better than it is. But when I pull this up on TWOB I was happy for a second and I saw the runtime is like two hours and twenty minutes. I was like, what the hell? This is nineteen eighty Yeah, and then yeah, so you know, no, I'm not hating on tube, but if if you've got a movie that's two hours and twenty minutes and you're watching on tub, you better set aside like six hours, because every twelve minutes you're getting seven commercial Yes, that's the number two. I was like, Yeah, yeah, time interjects maybe one, two, but like seven.

1:10:08 I was clean shaven when I hit play. You can see there's always a price, Beard, Now, yeah, there is a price to be paid. You're going you're going to you're in a gulag. If you're touching to. White Knights for posterity, you're gonna have, you know, a DVD forever of two of the greatest guys who ever did the thing? So an audio commentary, you said, so, I'm a. Little behind the scenes documentary, Like it's fun learning about White Knights being an actual. Thing and uh, we wouldn't even talk about that. Yeah, the whole the whole meaning behind it, and.

1:10:49 You know, even the scenes where they were like, oh, it's midnight, but it's super bright out it Actually, when I look at it, describe it as it's more like twilight because the relation of the city to the Arctic Circle those sun never isn't below horizon long enough for full darkness, so it kind of stays more of a twilight, not a full bright for mom, Wait. It's like the opposite for like thirty days a night, Like you know, once a year we're in darkness for a month. What's a year we're in daylight for a month because I know, Yeah. There's a town or in Alaska that's currently they like, but they won't see the sun. Just the other day they were like, we won't see it again for a month. Yeah, and then I turned on thirty days a night because that's what you did.

1:11:32 Absolutely all right? Friends? What do you think of White Nights? Have you seen it? Where does it rank on your list of dance movies? Let us know on social media on Facebook, Instagram, and x Check out www. A Film Bypodcast dot com for film and TV articles and our entire library streaming free. Write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns and we may just read your response on the show and send you some of a film by swag. We have recently relaunched our YouTube channel. Jeff, we got some fun stuff going on over there. What's going on with YouTube?

1:12:16 Yeah, we just last episode we were talking about this. The relaunch is going great, and we've got this great opportunity for all of our listeners. Head to our YouTube channel right now. That's www dot YouTube dot com. Slash at a Film by Podcast and sign up hit that subscribe button. If you are one of the first one hundred subscribers to our new YouTube channel, you will be entered to win a week in pass to one of several comic cons that we'll be going to next year. So, amirates, we're getting close last time I checked, so not too late. Listeners, head there right now, hit the subscribe button, and maybe you'll be joining us at one of the cons that we frequent It is a.

1:13:07 Good, good time. Thank you Jeff, Thank you Angela. It was a little bit like hurting cats, but as a former elementary school teacher, I was up to the challenge. And all of you listening to the show, following us on social media and subscribing to our Patreon, we thank you.