1996: The Phantom

0:00 This episode is brought to you by the Mayroe and Co. Dog Treat Bakery, a full service bakery for your dogs, providing classic treats, cookies, doughnuts, custom cakes, and more. Their treats are baked with only the highest quality, locally sourced ingredients. Baking just a pound of treats at a time ensures that their treats are the best and the ones your best friends deserve. Mayroe and Co. Dog Treat Bakery has been treating Cincinnati's dogs to tail wagon goodness since twenty twelve, and now they're available online at Mayrowanco dot com. It was the mid nineties. Some of us were a year or two out of high school and some of us were a year or two into college.

0:49 We didn't know who we wanted to be, but we knew where we wanted to be the movie theater. These are the movies of nineteen ninety six. What's up, everybody. I'm Jeff Johnson from a Film by podcast and I'm hoping you're down for our latest dope new series. We've broken down the fresh films of nineteen eighty six. We've examined the gritty cinemascape of nineteen seventy six. Now it's time to check out the Hella Good Flicks of nineteen ninety six. Joining me today is a man I've come to appreciate as the authority on the Golden Age of cinema. You'll find him on the Docking Base seventy seven podcast, and I'm betting he knows more old Jungle things than the ghost who walks. Robert Burnett, Welcome to nineteen ninety six. Angala, I stole out from the Tarzan movies. I mean whatever you want it to me, and it's kind of an all purpose word. All right, listen, I'll just go ahead and say this. I love this movie. I was.

2:05 I knew that we were gonna cover this on nineteen ninety six, and it was important to me that I had someone that could appreciate it as well. And then out of nowhere, I hear you on Docum Based seventy seven and you called out The Phantom and you know as a movie that you that you enjoy it. What's that? Was that the Top seven Crushes episode or which episode was it was? I had a little thing for Billy for a while. Yeah, and and this was definitely, if not the catalyst kind of the summation of hot Billy Zane and uh so, yeah, I loved him in this the movie I like yourself, love the movie as well.

2:45 But he was It's a nice little extra. Real quick, before we get started, Billy Zane shaved head or Billy Zane full head of hair? We're talking dead calm, Titanic or is it demon night? I got to say full hair, bull hair? All right? You know, load is not bad, ball is not bad, but pability I think I think he needs the hair. There's there's no wrong answer with Billy Zane as far as I'm concerned. Well, I'll tell you what. Listeners, Robert and I are ready to slam evil. It's time to talk about the Phantom. He has been a symbol of justice for centuries, yet he is as mortal as any man. He is a descendant of a legend that has endured for twenty generations, yet his identity remains a secret. His power is legendary, but he is not supernatural. He has been as the Ghost who Walks, the Guardian of the Dark, or simply the Phantom. Kit Walker is the latest descendant

4:18 in a long line of heroes known as the Phantom, powered by the mystic Skulls. The ghost who walks rules the African Jungles, striking fear into all evildoers. But when Xander Dracs, a wealthy New York criminal, begins collecting the skulls to obtain their ultimate power, it's up to the Phantom to stop it. Robert, we always like to start talking about how nineties culture influences film. Now clearly that is not gonna be the case, right, I'm going to beg to differ a little bit. I think the casting definitely calls out nineties. I mean the fact, okay, we have we have swamps, and then this, I mean, I don't know that she worked outside of the nineties, did she? Uh you know, We'll get to her.

5:10 Yeah, yeah, I mean and and and and and Bill Billy was all of a sudden he was hot stuff after dead calm and was did This was one of his first, like above the title sort of starring Roles So and they treat Williams had been coming up for a while, and uh, I feel like not not not so much the obviously the period of the film, but definitely the the casting. And I also I think the nineties for me was kind of the last era where we had I don't know, like mid level movies. I don't want to call them B pictures because I think they all wanted to be A's. But you know, we had these movies that were not super big budget spectaculars like a Spielberg or Lucas, but they weren't just low budget stuff. They were kind of this weird mid nit And I feel like this would definitely fall in this category where it wasn't like a college movie, but it also wasn't a Lucas production. Let me follow you into the Phantom's cave with that. With that comment, So, following the blockbuster success of Batman in nineteen eighty nine, Hollywood basically scrambling to meet the demand for more superhero films. But the problem is that Warner Brothers is it ready to commit to a fifth Superman with Christopher Reeve and Marvel, who ultimately declares bankruptcy in nineteen ninety six. Robert, they're liquidating their film rights to every major studio, which still doesn't help put well known superheroes on the silver screen because we're still several years away from acceptable special effects to see them.

6:42 So the void gets filled with a wave of what I'd like to call Pulp era heroes from the you know, like the days of radio. You're reading my note, you're reading my notes even better. Yeah, No, I mean, yeah, you're still right. We had The Rocketeer which came out, and we had this, oh with I think how Baldwin if I recall, right, and a bunch of movies with these kind of like kind of well known if you were listening to Grandpa's radio, you know, that kind of thing from the thirties and forties. But they were not Batman and Superman. They were not you know, the Iron People we got from Marvel later on, you know. So yeah, along with that mid budget I think we have this kind of like b list of superheroes. Yeah, from Pulp Well, I think so a little earlier, I want to say, late seventies, early eighties. It was even a Doc Savage movie that ought to be seen to be believed. It's let's talk about the Big Four. Let's talk about the Big Four of the Pulp era in the nineties. So, and you you mentioned a couple of them already. I think we kick things off nineteen ninety. We get Dick Tracy with Warren Baty. Oh you know kind of a passion project for baty ninety one you mentioned The Rocketeer, which I happened to love. Nineteen ninety four we get Alec Baldwin in the Shadow, and then ninety six we get the Phantom. This is this is like your four pack of pulp, you know, like you said listening to the radio, Grandpa's Radio, Robert, you happen to have a favorite among these these big four. I really liked the Rocket Shore as well. Okay,

8:15 really enjoyed that film Shadow. I saw it in the theater and I remember nothing about it. Nothing stuck. So I mean I might have might have enjoyed it, but I've never gone back to it, and it didn't. I didn't go see it again. And Dick Tracy, that was big budget, you could tell, but it fell flat for me. I had high hopes for it. I mean, here we have Madonna, we have songs by Stephen Sondheim, who I love, we have you got Warren Bady in this and Paccino, and it just it did not quite gel the way I thought it could have. So so Rocket here and Phantom and my two standouts from our our quartet. I'm with you that those are definitely the two standouts these movies. It puzzles me because they didn't really make a lot of money at the box office. Uh, and you know, well, let's just let's just jump to it. The Phantom opens the same weekend as The Rock and debuts at number six, and uh, listen to this, Robert.

9:13 So you're opening weekend, you got The Rock, Mission Impossible, Twister, Dragon Heart Eddie, which I don't I don't understand at all. And then and then you've got you, You've got You've got The Phantom debuting at number six. It seems like Paramount can't even get out of their own way because you got Mission Impossible out there. It's like, what are they doing? You know, you got Twister, and then you've got all these big Disney movies like you know, The Rock and and uh, I just don't understand if you if you put the I feel like if you put the if you put the opening for this film a few weeks ahead or a few weeks behind, it probably does some some serious money, wouldn't you think. Yeah?

9:56 Yeah, I mean everybody was waiting for Twister, Twister and The Rock a little bit, but I remember Twist person, everybody was everybody I knew went and saw it opening weekend and something. People went back and saw it again. It was it was great and it was marketed well. And uh, yeah, I'm surprised Phantom came in six. Actually I did. I didn't dig that deep, but I know it. Knew it did you know, lost money? But but I did not know it was it was in the top ten. I would have guessed lower. Yeah it Uh it ends its run with seventeen million dollars from a budget of forty five million. Uh. You and I love this movie. But uh the critics surprisingly you know, little mix. But overall, critics loved the nostalgic tone, the old fashioned action, and optimistic disposition of Billy Zane's performance. Uh, this is what you know. And anyone, Robert, anyone that's that's let's listening and thinking, these guys don't know what they're talking about. That movie was not great.

10:48 Roger Ebert gave it three and a half stars, calling it, quote, one of the best looking movies in a long time. Roger knows, Roger, Roger knows. Yeah, Roger knows, Robert. I was kind of surprised when I kind of dug into this. I was really surprised at some of the things I found out about the making of this film. First attempt at making it happens in the nineteen seventies with Adam West in the title role. What's going on that? I get where they're going with that. You know, he's Batman up until I want to say, nineteen sixty six, so we know he can play a crime fighter with a cow but I don't get that. Fortunately, the character rights couldn't be settled, so it's scrapped. A few decades later, though, Joe Dante is attached to direct with a script he develops with Jeffrey Bohm, who I'll remind our listeners Jeffrey Boone. He writes Indiana Jones in the Last Crusade The Lost Boys Leave the Weapon two and three, among many of his hits. I think this could have been an amazing film, but Paramount delays production a full year, so Joe Dante leaves a project. Actually found a quote Joe Dante talking about you know, his his interest in it and ultimately leaving it. He says, I developed the script with the late Jeff Bohm, who wrote Innerspace as a

12:22 kind of a spoof. We were a few weeks away from shooting in Australia when the plug was pulled over the budget and the presence of a winged demon at the climax. If you didn't know Robert the origin, the original script had a winged demon that the Phantom was going to fight, which I don't know if that would have worked, but not on this movie. Now, Yeah, continue with what Dante says. A year or so later, it was put back into production Sons Demon. Only nobody seemed to notice it was written to be funny, so it was disastrously played straight. Many unintentionally funny moments were cut after a raucous test screening, and I foolishly refused money to take my name off the picture, so I'm credited as one of the mini producers. And see. I think if if Dante had directed it, it would have been a much better picture. I put a lot of the blame for the failure of the film, and even though I watch it at least once a year, the false are all with the director. I think the cast game, I think that the script is very funny, and I think the director is just Assimon Windsor. I never even heard of him. I went and looked up his credits. He did like Operation Dumbo Drop and Free Willy. He was not a tour of any kind, and I think he kind of partly put his stakes through the heart of this because the places that could have been light and sparkling that Dante did so well in some of his films when you still can have fear or excitement or menaced or whatever, but

13:54 with that tongue in cheek thing windsor just plods and to the detriment of the film. Uh So, I'm going to agree with you that it is a better film if Joe Dante is directing. But to uh to defend winsor a little bit now you know you mentioned Free Willie and uh an Operation Dumbo Drop, which you're not gonna find those two of my collection. However, he did direct the nineteen eighty five classic Daryl. He did the Lonesome Dove mini series in eighty nine, and what I feel gets him this job. He directed a ton of the Adventures of Young India Jones chronicles. Oh fair.

14:39 I feel like the action scenes though, are some of the weeke weeke its parts, and that that that goes hand in hand probably with the music which I know we'll be talking about too. But I uh, the the action scenes in this are not that same adrenaline rush that you get in better movies they can be. I mean, gosh, you know, a big, big truck driving over the rickety bridge. A it's a cliche, and I love that for it, you know, I love that we're doing all the tropes of the jungle, but it just misses misses that that fun, exciting, stop eating popcorn, lean forward and hold your breath to a dover quality do you get from the Indiana Jones films and from other films in that era.

15:22 And I just I don't know. Maybe I ought to go back and look at some of Winter's other films, but I don't don't think he he pulled those scenes off as well as he might have. I agree with you, you know what, you think? This is an action adventure film. That's it's a superhero action adventure that takes place in the nineteen late nineteen thirties. And to your point, I'm thinking of two action scenes right now. The one that you mentioned the cargo truck going over that rickety bridge, which I think that scene works perfectly because when the thugs are like Wells, who's driving over that, not me? Not me? And then they have like the ten year old boy who's their guide doing it. So you get a chuckle there and you go, Okay, well, we know he's going to make it across, but it's still gonna be a little horring. But you're right about that. Other than that, the only other scene I can think of is when the Phantom steals a you know, he rescues Diana Palmer.

16:17 They steal the plane and then the plane has to you know, they're gonna do the classic Indiana Jones thing where the plane is out of fuel, it's going to crash into the mountain. But before that he's gonna jump from the plane to his horse, who I love. I love that horse named Hero, and then he's got to get Diana Palmer and save her. It. It's a fun action scene, but that's it happened so early in the movie that we should have got a big climactic set piece and we really don't do we Yeah, yeah, well, And I think as an antion, I think part of it is the score too. The score of this film, it to me is it's uninspired. It just kind of it's proficient it's it's adequate, it's not great. And you know, David Newman is from that dynasty that it goes back to Warner Brothers in the thirties and up till Randy Newman, who's still I think he might still be writing songs. But and and David was just not not the Newman who had all the talent. I guess this score and even his filmography. He did lots of b pictures and lots of busy work and stuff and and uh, and yet you know, his dad, Alfred Newman, did some of the greatest films Hollywood ever had.

17:32 I mean, he did Bothering Heights, he did Anastasia, the original, not the cartoon, How the West Was Won, I mean, How Green was My Valley? All these classic films, and then we get David who is kind of doing busy chase music. And so again it's hard not to compare the Dandiana Jones. But I think about the rousing John Williams score and how it elevates all the scenes in those movies. And and to your point of out the cargo truck, you know, the Frances part trucks, it's just the music. I even watch the scene. It again and really listen to the music as well, and what we it it. It's passable, but it's just not inspired. It's not exciting in the way that could have elevated what they had even more. You the word you use the word adequate to describe David Newman, and I think that is a great word, because he is. He's that guy when it comes to composers. Yeah.

18:30 Uh, you know, he's got over one hundred credits and truthfully, and I've seen a lot of his work. I've seen a lot of the films that he's worked on, but the only the only one I could I could I could hear in my mind, Like when I'm looking at that I'm looking at the titles that he's worked on. I saw that he composed the music for Galaxy Quest, and I can hear that music in my mind. But I just watched The Phantom and I can't hear the Phantom music. Yeah, and that's a that's a serious problem. A superhero movie. A hero has to have a theme, you know. You think you think if if I say Batman or I say Superman, we immediately hear Danny Elfman's score. We immediately hear John Williams. I don't hear who the Phantom is. No, And you're absolutely right, David Newman, not not the not the not the best Newman for the job. I have to agree with you wholeheartedly. I'll tell you what. We're gonna take a quick break and when we get back, Robert, we gotta we gotta get behind the scenes on this one and UH and talk about some of the fun stuff. Welcome back to nineteen ninety six. Robert Burnette and myself. We're talking about the Phantom. One thing about winsor though back to back to Winster real quick. I will give him credit for one thing, you know, because he did have He happens to be a huge fan, you know, the Phantom was a childhood hero of his. So he comes in all you know, beaming, he's he's ready to go. He also looks at the shooting locations and decides to to move it from Hawaii to UH to Thailand, which ends up saving the budget like

20:04 twelve million dollars, so which which helped I'll step those losses. Yeah, huge help. And Robert, Thailand is not the only exotic location. The Palmer Mansion, Diana's house. Yeah, that's that's actually the Playboy mansion. Oh you're kidding. That's great. No, Yeah, I love I love when you know, when when you see this stuff like that happened. You know, obviously this is this is the the eighties and nineties. Half is any chance he gets to you, you can see the mansion on in a movie, or they can visit the mansion. It's it's always gonna happen. I'm surprised we did not get you know, stately Wayne manor that house was used so often for things, and it was right it's right up the street from where he half lives, so would have been great. Well we didn't see that one, but I guess, you know, maybe maybe they were keeping that in their back pocket. I guess. So it was funny.

20:56 The movie was really really well promoted too. As I mentioned in the Top seven Questions episode, billis Ain did a gott milk ad that was in all the magazines as the Phantom. So there he is, remember that purple outfit with his glass of milk and his milk mustache. The theaters all had the popcorn buckets, and the toy stores had some toys, and of course there was a set of collectible cards, which I have, but I set of collectible cards. Uh wait, now, are these are wait, I'm sorry to cut you off. Is are these like lobby cards? Are these like tops Trading cards? Because I know Tops Trading cards? Oh? I love it. Yeah, I have, I got them all. I have the foil Chaser cards that makes the big picture of Phantom on Hero and I have all the all those when we get to casting. I have a funny little blur buff on one of the cards. But yeah, I love this.

21:53 Yeah, yeah. I can't tell you how how many times I had to go back to my comic book store and buy three more pass to see if I can get all the cards, you know. But I think, I think one of the best promotions that they do for this film, aside from Billy Zane to a Milk Milk commercial, Milk ads, Metal replica Phantom rings are passed out at several theater chains when this movie comes out. I wanted one so bad and I tried to trick my friend into going up to Westwood with me, which was kind of a drive from where every wave to one of the big theaters up there, and they did not go. And I was a little little peevish about that afterwards. But yeah, they even I said they had like a popcorn bucket in the theater and all this stuff going on without in that movie. Uh, they're high hopes. Obviously they did not did not come true. Well, looking at the principal roles, obviously we got to start with Billy Zane, who is kit Walker, better known as the Phantom, better known as the Ghost who Walks. I love the fact that he becomes a fan of the comic while he's shooting Dead Calm in nineteen eighty nine, he beats out Bruce Campbell for the role, which let's stop and think for a second. Bruce Campbell as the Phantom, how great would that have been. I'm not, no, no disrespect of mister Zein Robert, but Bruce Campbell is the Phantom would have been a different movie.

23:21 I mean, you need, you need Sam Raimi, you'd need like it would be a whole other thing. It'd be a great thing, but it would not be this thing. Much as I like Campbell and Briscoe County, the TV show he did the Western, I don't think that he had the right tone, like a period peace like this. I don't know if he could have pulled that off without being super winky and funny in a way that would have worked against any any kind of sincerity they were trying to get out of the movie. I think with Campbell you're getting a much more tongue in cheek superhero, almost almost a parody if you will. H Yeah, but this, this next little tidbit, this, this might have helped land Billy Zane on your your Top seven celebrity crush lists from docum Base seventy seven.

24:10 He spends a year working out to play the phantom, and he gets so buff that he can't fit into the padded suit that they have created for him, because they've got like Batman just came out in eighty nine. So the idea is like, hey, here's a rubber suit. It's it's we've got fake muscles, the fake muscle padding padded into it. You'll look fantastic. Zay shows up. They have to remove the fake muscle padding to make it fit. So what you see on screen that's Zane. I mean he's And what's hilarious about that is it's a standards of male beauty. I guess is by today's standards, he's not really ripped. He's not all muscle. You will see. I mean, put him against I don't know, Zach Frenn or whoever that the shirt list wonder is of this year, and Billy just looks kind of, you know, better than an average Joe. But he is not you know what we would call he could not pass with that body today in that role, they would have get somebody twice as buff. And that isn't that isn't that. I feel like that's just tragically sad though, right, oh, it is when you see. I mean, he looks phenomenal in the film, and to your point, yeah, he's not.

25:26 He doesn't have like like that Chris Evans Captain America aesthetic. Yeah, he does have like that Christopher Reeve Superman look well. And I think that I'm going to jutify it and say for the period, he looks great. I mean, if you ever see any movies from the thirties and there's you know, Randolph Scott jumping into a swimming pool or Johnny Weissmoller and the Tarzan movies. To hark back to those agains, they were not all bulging in viny like our you know, with zero body fat like our guys have now. Zaye looks like a muscular man probably would look in the thirties, and judging sm other films in that era versus our standard is now, which is unrealistic and probably not even healthy, you're absolutely right. Uh. One other fun fact about Zaying he begins shaving his head when he takes on the role of the Phantom, so that the phantom's cow will fit as close as possible.

26:19 I know exactly what he's what he's talking about, obviously, Robert, I shaved my head so my cow fits as close as possible. But I mean talking about dedication. I thought that was you. I thought that was what the mask. Yeah, no, I I like the dedication because, like you know, a year the year before, you know, when you see him dead, calm, you see him entirely anything you see him in before this, even even Critters in eighty six, he has got a full thick head of hair. And this is the era, this is this is the movie. This point up to a point. I'm thinking that there might have been some some two pays earlier than we know what we think. I'm just saying, Okay, I wonder I don't not a judgment, you know, it is what it is. But but yeah, I think the whole Oh I shaved my head for the movie. I think that was a terrific out for him. And if that's what he's saying, I'll believe it. Hey, all I know is I dig it. You know. As soon as like, you know, he shows up in like Demon Night, I was like, holy shit, Billy's am shaved head. He looks like a badass.

27:18 Like, yeah, I'm a fan. After that, I'm definitely a fan of Christy Swanson. She's playing Diana Palmer. Now here's something a lot of our listeners that if they if they were listening to our nineteen eighty six series, then they already know Christy kind of arrived in a big way in nineteen eighty six. She had She had small roles in Pretty and Pink, in Ferris Bueler's Day Off. Then she takes the lead role in a really creepy West Craven movie called Deadly Friend. A couple years later, it's nineteen ninety two, she breaks out with Buffet the vampire Slayer, but Robert, she never really goes on to bigger roles, Like what, why know that that was my thing? I had honestly forgotten the actress's name until I pulled it, you know, pulled it out to watch again for this episode, and went, well, whatever happened to her? You know, I just she was why I kind of brought her up as a why is this the nineties influence? Well, definitely casting, and she's really good. She's really good. I would have liked to have seen her do more, but I honestly don't know what else she'd done since. And even when I tried zoom in through IMDb, I did not recognize a lot of the things or I didn't recognize who she was in that so it's strange. Still working, but she Yeah, she's still working. She's actually she's uh, she's doing a lot of the conventions now, you know, kind of kind of champion the whole Buffy the Vampire Slayer. A lot of the fans, the fan base loves to you know, meet meet her, get get her autographed. But

28:52 after after Buffy the Vampire Slayer ninety two, you would have assumed that she breaks out into this, you know, this stardom like where she could have been like America's sweetheart, like a Sondra Bullock. Is what I'm thinking, yeah, absolutely, and I don't know what's going on. But and she has steadily worked, she has never not been working, but she kind of goes down this road of television movie. She falls into the Hallmark trap, I think for a little while. And lately there's a lot of it's a lot of B movies, a lot of directive video stuff, and I don't understand that because she is such a talented actress. Well Is Aim was kind of the same way. I mean, he had his little run in the nineties, probably popping out with Titanic, and then he did kind of never with the next big thing either. He kept being poised to be but he never quite never quite broke through for whatever reason. And to where now all of a sudden it is still working, but lots of B pictures and television guest spots and voiceovers, but not you know, anything where it's a Billie's Aye film. This I mean, you know, we know that he signs a three picture deal. The Phantom supposed to be a trilogy, and if this one would have been successful, we would have got that. I feel like Billy Zaying leading the Phantom. A year later, he is he's in Titanic So to your point, again, he should have shot to like superstardom as far as I'm concerned, we should have seen a lot more of him, but he kind of goes to the route of direct the video stuff, you know, straight to you know, I don't know. I just don't

30:26 understand because he's such a talented actor too. I don't get it. I don't get this cat like to you said it like, you know, it is nineties culture because we've got Billy's same, We've got Christy Swanson and I'm just the mystery here is is not the mystic skull so much. It is as it is. Why didn't these two just explode in popularity? Yeah? And they have great chemistry together, Oh gosh, yes, I mean I would have loved them in a sitcom, you know, put the two of them on some TV thing every week where he the grumpy boss and she's gonna tell him, I mean, whatever it's going to be. It would have been great because they had a lot of chemistry between them. But it just maybe it didn't didn't take with other people they did this film, What did you think? What did you think of Treat Williams. He's he's playing our heavy Uh, he's Xander Drax the he is the wealthy criminal that's that's out to get world world domination, in power, who has one of the funniest lines when he's like having to spell his name out in the middle of this this intense thing is Xander x A. And yeah, I've always loved Treat Williams. I first discovered him in nineteen eighty one in Hair, which was in my my top seven of eighties movies. On that other podcast, Uh, you can said, it's the it's the documents. Yes, yeah, shut him out. We get a dollar every time we say it. And I know I've always enjoyed him a lot. I think he's so interesting and loved him in this because he he hit the tone well, actually the way

32:00 all the principles did, but he hit the tone just right between believable bad guy but also a little silly, a little campy, a little little little over the top that that humorous element. And he was so versatile. I mean he did musicals and he did dramas, and he was on with Everwood I think it was called or something a Dienery show where he was like the really nice dad for a bunch of seasons and he can play jerks and gangsters. He was so versatile and he unfortunately we just recently lost him and too too young, but thought he was great in this movie. He he gave it a really nice, nice, nice tone that made made you afraid of him. But also he was just kind of silly. I I feel like he really he is chewing up the scenery. He's obviously having a blast, you know, he dials it up to eleven. He's goofy, but he like to your you know, like you said, he he's still there's some minutes to him, Like the scene where he uses the microscope. Yeah, that is I love. I gotta I gotta call that scene out real quick because it is such a a hitchcock vibe where we know what's going to happen with his microscope, and then this poor guy from the library walks in and he's I want you to just check some about and we're like, don't do it, don't do it, like the whole time, like they're talking about you know, Xander's like, hey, does anyone know what I'm researching?

33:29 No, No, I don't tell anybody, And you're like, don't look in the microscope. And I love the fact that we get that quick split second where he gets to see the word liar. Yeah, before the before the needles, you know, shoot into his eyeballs. It's oh, it's it's it's harrowing. Well well Williams, Yeah, well Williams, I think you we said goofy, and I think that's a great word for him because he's got that that very impetuous grin, and he's not tall, and he got kind of a high ish pitched voice for for a film leading man type, and all those things he uses them really well to where when he need to be menacing and dramatic, he can be, but he leans into it a little bit and it just made him just just super fun. Yeah, he's I think a lot of times you get a villain like this, they're they're kind of dark and brooding. He is very charismatic. Yeah, he's always got a big smile on his face. He's always he's he's almost like a Gene Hackman Lex Luthor from seventy eight Superman. Yeah, he's just he's just there to just be a gentleman. But but he's also gonna take over things and he's gonna murder you if you get in his way. I love what he's doing here. I honestly do. Robert in one of the the better, uh better examples of cameos and or before they were famous extras,

35:01 Catherine Zita Jones, I know I mentioned before the trading card set, says, so I dug them out, and you know, after the usual sixty or seventy cards that give the plot of the film, and there's always shots, cards that have shots that weren't in the final release, and you're like, oh, I wonder what that was for. But they have cast cards and Billie zan gets too. One is kit Walker, and one is the Phantom, and then there there's there's Christie Swanson and then we get Treat Williams. Catherine Data Jones' card is number seventy nine. She comes after after read this chat punk Petlore, who played Zach who was the little young guy who drove the truck at the opening sequence. Zeta Is. Her card comes after his. She's the last cast member who gets her own card, and they describe her as Catherine Zida Jones, one of the hot new British actresses, stars as this Polk Street flyer. She was on the big screen in Splitting spitting no splitting, splitting hairs. Some of her TV credits include Darlene Buds of May and The Young Indiana Jones Chronicle, which might be how she got in this but yeah, she is fully formed Catherine in this movie. Though, my gosh, that is exactly how she gets into this picture. You know, you know earlier you said, hey, Idam, I don't know if you know Winsor, I don't know how you got this job. Remember, Winsor directs I want to say, maybe nine or ten different episodes of

36:35 the Adventures of Young Indina Jones, and he happened to work with her on one of those episodes. So before before he's on board, we got two women going after this role. Robert. We have Playboy playmate Jenny McCarthy and and and Jennifer Lopez. They are auditioning for this role. Catherine Zena Jones ultimately takes and when Winsor comes on board, he says, nope, it's it's I've already got her, and it's Catherine Zita Jones. So without Windsor, we don't get Catherine Zita Jones. And you gotta wonder, do we get Catherine Zita Jones at all if not for windsor because two years later she blows up the superstardom with the mask of Zoro in ninety eight. So I kind of feel like this was like the the point, you know, you like you said, this is fully formed Catherine Ceda Jones. She is fantastic in this role. I don't have diaries or anything to back me up, but I remember when I came out of this film, I was like, that woman's going to be a star. I mean, she just was gorgeous and just stunning to look at and just so commanding and charismatic on screen.

37:49 I was like, we're going to see a big thing is from her. And it was funny because the next thing I remember seeing her in was a TV Titanic film, So she and she and Billy that Bond of titan Yeah, she was in a Titanic made for TV movie. I think, I want to say Peter Gallagher was in it and a bunch of people. But it was a couple of years later and she was in that as well. Had no idea and of course the thing that's funny and and you know she's she's still working now. She was keeping that adventure action thing going She was in the National Treasure TV series that just lasted the season and was an arch villain and that really good. But she she's been working in England for ten years, and like so many of my favorites, came out of musical theater and England was her background. But then she was pretty enough she got cast in TV and films there, but she was tired of being cast as the pretty girl or the beautiful one in these things. So she basically left England, came to America to start a career over and then ended up being you know, this hot aviatrix in The Phantom. But but she pulled it off so well. She went to delightful in this movie. She's a fantastic theme fatale. And I gotta be honest, man, I'm watching it and she clearly is all about Billy Zane. She's all She's all about the Phantom, right her character. And I'm sitting there watching and I'm like, kid, what are you doing? Like it's Katherine Zida Jones, and all due respect to Christy Swanson, but that's no contest for me, Robert. It's Catherine

39:22 Jones all the way. I'm gonna I'm gonna detO it that a little bit. I got this whole like she and her little troop of lesbian abas in this movie. Yeah, I thought that that. I mean, and the way I even watching it again, I was kind of trying to read it that way. It's I think her whole chasing after Billy Sing is just her being kind of spiteful and funny. I don't think. I don't know if and she's partly doing it to piss off you know, Dianah Walmer, good point. But but but also I just think it's like it's like funny and it's a game to her, Okay, I mean, or you know, maybe maybe she does want him to. But but I mean as soon as I see oh this this you know, statue as woman in the cat suit and in her army of female pilots, You're going lesbians. I mean that did anybody can see that? And I do not, uh no matter how much you don't want it to be. I I just thought it was a great, a great thing. All they needed with German accents and they would have just been hilarious. But the but I I I read it is that, and I think she Zida Jones plays it so like smirkingly and smugly that it gives it a layer. And I think that layer is she doesn't want Billy. She's just messing with everybody could entertaining to her. I love that whole seat, that whole sequence where they're on they're on the ship. I think that's some of Billy's Aye's better moments in this movie, because when he

40:53 busts in, ready to ready to just knock heads, and then he sees there's there's all these these uh these women in undergarments, the look of confusion on his face priceless. But then it also like right before you go, okay, he's here, right before you're ready to settle in that he's gonna be kind of a goofy hero. He has that great moment where he jumps in, you know, he lands through the laundry shoot ready to save Christy Swanson and uh, Catherine c to Jones has the gun and he just calmly, he's not even looking at her, and he's like, you know, there's an whole jump of saying, uh, never point a gun nless you're planning to use, and he like snatches it with I mean, look like the noe looks snatch it out of her hand and her look of surprise where like she's like, Wow, this, this guy's good. I love I love that whole the whole sequence, the whole, the whole thing is is just fantastic. I think, Yeah, yeah, Robert, let's take let's take one last break, and when we get back it'll be time for keeping it real. Listeners, we are back, and it is time to keep it real, Robert first time on nineteen ninety six. There are three questions we're going to discuss, and we're going to start with my favorite, one of our favorite actors. Billy Zopka was dominating Dojo's high school cafeterias and college swimming pools in some of the best movies in the nineteen eighties. Then he's notably absent from Hollywood for most of the nineties. So the question is,

42:30 what about zob replace one actor from this film with William Zobka. What do you got? I would make him one of Quill's henchmen, not Quill, remarked, or get a good job as Quill, but one of the henchmen, you know, in those early scenes on the truck and all that messing around. I think that would be a good role for him. He could do maybe some martial arts stuff and some action and then be gone, Wow, Okay, So saying, maybe take a I do Casey. Casey to Moscow is one of the henchmen in the earlier scenes. James, Yeah, any of them. Just just you can you can you can rode him in for that. Well, I'm I'm going a lot bigger here, man.

43:14 Uh for me, this is a this is it's a no brainer. Uh, I'm trading Billy for Billy. Zopka looked amazing. Yes, hold on, hear me out now. Zopka looked amazing in the skeleton costume and karate kid. Just imagine what he looks like as the Phantom. And then and then on top of that, the Phantom, you know, we've we've got the the guns and we've got the punches, but now we we we're gonna throw in karate. On top of that, the ghost who walks is kicking some major ass. If we're gonna need somebody to make a deep fake of this, we need we need to get some ai going. And just like superimposed Billy's face on Billy's face, and and and and see how that turns out I might be in for that. I'll tell you. I'll tell you this to Robert, I met, I met. I had the pleasure of meeting William Zaka last year. The guy is in phenomenal shape. He could play the phantom today if you wanted to, he could do it today.

44:10 I'm telling you the guy I lead into our next little bullet points right, It's okay that way you're heading. Well, I'm ahead and there. But let's see what you have to say. Next question, sequel, prequel or remake, Robert, if you controlled this ip, what would be your pitch to the studio to revive it? Well, borrowing time travel and actually getting those two sequels that they wanted with treat Williams and and Billion fifteen and all that, I would say probably a remake. And I'm not usually a fan of remakes, but I think there's a lot of value in this property and a lot of ways you could go where it wouldn't be a scene by scene or a beat by beat remake, but just taking the characters, taking the vibe and atmosphere of the film, and making something new for it. All right, I'm with you on a remake And and here's where, here's where I'm gonna go with it. And I'm gonna I'm gonna give you some I'm gonna give you I'm gonna give you the cast on top of that. So I want to do like a legacy remake that doesn't it doesn't ignore the nineteen ninety six Phantom. It's just we're we're kind of it's it's another one, right, whether you whether you call it a sequel or a remake, it's kind of both. But I want a new I want a new Phantom with Daniel Radcliffe. And if you have seen him lately, he is he is shredded. He is superhero shredded. Uh. I know there's been a lot of rumors. We we we even talked about it on on this show, about him possibly being the next Wolverine. It's not gonna happen. I would

45:45 love to see what he could do with a role like the Phantom. But he doesn't have the right face, you don't think so. No, he is not square jawed. He is not you know, he doesn't have a profile. You need that leading man thing that that any everybody from you know, Carrie Grant to Harrison Ford has Cliff is a great actor. He's so versatile, very lovable and likable, but he does not read as a leading man, as as a hero and and so uh no, but I'm not I'm I'm gonna think about that now and and see. And of course I'm always voting for somebody new in this kind of role. Where where you launch somebody. I mean, Harrison Ford was obviously on his way up, but I mean for for his film. But somebody, somebody knew who is talented and and good looking and and that kind of retro thing, they could pull it up. But Daniel Daniel could could replace Treat Williams. Well, I've got I've got to treat. I've got someone for Treat Williams too. And I think it's perfect. I think of you might. I'm just trying to find a place for Daniels he well whose Well, I'll tell you real quick.

46:59 You want talented, you want good looking, you want up and coming. This guy is doing all of that already. How about how about Glenn Powell. You know we saw him in Top Gun, Maverick. He's in Twisters coming out this uh this, this, this summer interesting. That might work, Okay, okay, that might work. Uh might have to recast now, uh if you're almost like Glenn Powell. I I had I had uh for for Diana Palmer and uh Sayla and I don't care which one does which, but I was looking at mea goth and Selena Gomez. Interesting. What do you think about that? I would I would put Selena at Diana though, That's what That's what I was thinking. Mia, Yeah, but I think I think it'd be fun to see her at Diana. Okay, are you ready for Xander? Yes? Chris Pine? Oh yeah, he was great? Oh yeah, I think so. And then this one, I know you're gonna love. Uh bringing back Billy Zaine as the ghost of Kid's father remember Cave. Yeah, he's got it's gotta be It's gotta be Zay so or or Billy Zain could be himself. I mean the phantom is mortal spoiler Yeah, so so uh, Daniel or whomever uh could be the current ghost too, Walks and Zay could play the dad. Uh. So this this would be the this current Phantom would be the grandson of the one

48:30 that was in uh the film we saw? Okay, I like that? Yeah? Does does the father have to be deceased? Does he have to be a ghost? Like I feel like he could maybe maybe he's at home, you know, well, yeah he's retired. They suggest that that, and then they don't say, but they I'll I'll chuck the back of all my trading cards. Maybe there's more depth, but they I think that. My my take on it was that that like when one phantom dies, the son steps into his shoes, right, yeah, yeah, it takes the cowl and I so I feel like Dad retiring just seems a little weird when you've already been the phantom, Okay, And honestly, with all they go through, they can't and they're not they're not immortal, and they're not magical really. I mean, they have the rings, but they they don't.

49:20 They probably don't have a long shelf life. You know. I'm not guessing you can be a phantom into your sixties realistically, because someone are going to whack you with something and you're going to die. Yeah. Well, let's the let's talk DVD extras. So in nineteen ninety six, the DVD format is initially introduced to the US markets, and while the simplicity of the compact disc pleased US, the high definition wowed us and has us tossing out our VHS tapes, But Robert, for centophiles like you and me, those exclusive special features were usually a no frills package of scene selection, French and Spanish subtitles. If you were lucky, you got a trailer. So my question to you, what DVD extra would you want on your DVD of this film.

50:04 You can have an audio commentary, you can have deleted scenes, or you can have a making of documentary. What do you want? Well, I needed to harken back to VH just just for a minute. As many of us, as as my favorites came out on DVD. I pitched the VHS tapes because I didn't need them. But I kept my VHS with The Phantom because the one I had had a particular cover, that is, you wiggled it back and forth. It went from kit to the Phantom and I still have that downtairs uh. But at any rate DVDs, I would want absolutely to make me a documentary, especially hearing some of it and reading about some of this history, of all the hands that were involved before it came to the screen. I would love to know about that. And then though I'm gonna I'm gonna cheat and and see I want, I want, I want some deleted scenes that there are many, but those can be Easter eggs.

51:00 I used to love those on those early DVDs. Wasn't that fantastic Up up, up over, oh, look here, down down, sideway down or whatever? And I was obsessed with the terreggs. My husband used to get still mad because anytime we'd get a new DVD, all the way up until like you know, a Blu Rays came out. The first time it would go in the DVD player, there I was. We weren't going to hit play and watch it with our popcorn. No, it was me on every menu going up up over nope, up, down over nope, down down, up nope, and until I and once I was statisfied, there were no Easter eggs and I could move on and actually go to the content. We We've done four or five of these nineteen ninety six episodes talking about DVD extras, and this is the first time someone's brought that up, and I love it because I used to be that that, just like you, I would sit there. I would waste so much time every DVD I got.

51:52 I sat there trying to crack the code right and figure out is there a hidden menu is or hidden I don't, why don't? Why don't the studios do anymore? And so much fun. The worst though, the worst was when well, I think I think the reason they stopped is because the internet got savvy and for a little while towards the end of that era, there was like easter egg dot com and it would tell you on every film what they were, how you could find them, and that not fun. But I think the other thing though, too, the disappointment in them, not why they maybe died, but nothing was worse than you finally found one and you got the little flower in the corner of the screen to light up and then all of a sudden, boom, you're walking. And it was always the stupid credits card for the DVD content itself, you know, and that was always a letdown. You wanted to see bloopers, and you wanted to see all this great stuff, you know, costume sketches, whatever, but no, there was always one easter Egg that was just who made the DVD and put the DVD menus together, and that that was just always a little sad moment in my house. My choice I'm saying, give me all the deleted scene. We know there are several scenes that kind of build upon the romantic angle for Kit and Diana and the Phantom and Diana. Those all got cut winsor decided to cut them for pacing issues. He wanted this to be like a slick, nostalgic action adventure movie, so we lost a lot of that. And and then we also lose a big scene the Phantom.

53:22 Supposedly the Phantom fights a giant snake. Why are you losing that? And I could have been that set piece later in the film that you were talking about where it would have been nice to have had one more big set piece. Yeah, I give me him fighting a giant snake over everyone fighting pirates because it was fun. But we you know, throw the snake in. Let the snake fight the pirates and the Phantom. I would have been fine with that too. I don't know. Let's Robert, Let's talk about the film's legacy. Is this a classic, a cult classic, or just a product of its time? Uh? Into the Chinese menu, little columb little calm. See. I think it definitely is a product of its time, as we discussed, But I think it is still a cult classic. People know this movie in a way that you say The Shadow and they probably don't know it. And Rocketeer maybe you know, Disney fans and a few people know that one, but so so more people seem to know of this movie.

54:22 Maybe it was just out marketing campaign. You know that those milk ads permeated everybody's in my imagination. But I'm gonna say cult classic. How about you? It's definitely a cult classic. It got a new life on h on Video Rentals, DVD and I don't know about I mean, I don't know about you. But anytime it's on, I'm gonna stop and watch it. You know, yeah, I'm gonna I own it. But I'm also gonna stop and watch it. It's I don't care if you want to call it a cult classic, a guilty pleasure, this is one. It's it's just fun in a in a in a way that we don't get superhero films that are like this anymore. How do you think how do you think this film impacted pop culture? Zero percent? Zero? Okay, I don't think it did. I think it was like we were talking about at the top of the show with the quartet of pulp, pulp movies and things. It was a product of a time. But I don't think it doesn't represent it.

55:17 You know, you're not going to put this into a montage at the opening of some movie in the future to show what the nineties was about. It doesn't have that boom. Well, I mean, okay, that's true. Well here's my theory though, when we're talking just about pop culture in general, I feel like the pulp era superhero movies ran so that the MCU could fly. That's an influence. Yeah, absolutely, I see what you're saying, Robert. As we wrap up, first off, definitely want to thank you for joining us here in nineteen ninety six. I was excited you and I we recently Amber Lewis joined us. We did an exclusive Patreon episode listeners if you have not checked that out yet. Robert is in rare form on that episode. It's a blast. But yeah, I want to thank you, Robert. I know that you've got to be back. You and I've already had some conversations about there's a couple of movies I would love for you to join us here on a film. Buy four, but in the meantime you're over on the Docum Base seventy seven podcast. You're in some of my favorite episodes, But anything anything big coming up on the horizon. Oh yeah, I'm guesting on a couple and then I'll be hosting an episode that'll be on during June for Pride Month. We're going to do a comparison of to Paul Rudnick movies Jeff Free, which is not super well known, and In and Out, which is better known to gate themed comedies that came out a couple of years apart and kind of moved the needle on representation in film,

56:50 but also really finding it at the same time. Absolutely yeah, In and Out was hilarious. I'm a Kevin Klin fan, so I love Kevin Klin, so I'll definitely look forward to that one. Listeners, we want to thank all of you for checking out our limited series nineteen ninety six. We're going to cover a lot of movies from this year, but we won't get to all of them. Some of you have already shared some films that are a must for us to cover, and you know, we thank you for that. But keep them coming by emailing us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com. You can hit us up on social media. You know you'll find us on Facebook, Instagram x. As for me and Robert, it's time for us to bounce, but next time. On nineteen ninety six, our friend Andy Frye will be back to discuss one of his favorite nineties films, Beautiful Girls. Peace Out,