A Film at 45: The Black Hole

0:00 Hello everyone, and welcome back to nineteen seventy nine. In a Film Buys limited series, A Film at forty five. I'm David Burns and. I'm Ska Hoffmann, And as usual, we're dusting off the end of a decade that changed cinema forever with a fresh look at modern classics and hidden gems that we can't stop watching. This week, we're talking about the original Disney Space oddity, the black. Hole that doctor Reinhardt is walking a tightrope between genius and insanity and darkness. Was upon the face of the deep. The spirit of God moved upon the face of the watters. What's up, Vincent?

0:40 The largest black hole I have ever encountered, mister piser. My god, right out of Dante's Infaranhoe. Yes, the most destructive force in the universe. Hairy, nothing escape, but not even light. On this strange trip. We've pulled a special guest into our orbit. Welcome back, Docking based seventy seven Zone, Dayton Johnson. Yeah, welcome Dayton. Greetings and salutations. Well, you know, it's it's nice to have you here, Dayton, because this is our last episode of a Film at forty five, and what better way to bring you in is to talk about a Walt Disney film, because, as we know your love of Disney.

1:27 Right, absolutely, absolutely, Yeah. Actually I remember owning the comic book for this film back when I was a kid. Nice, And unfortunately I have no idea where it is, but a classic story, Yeah, yeah, I remember having that. But yeah, I was excited about this movie when I was a kid. So, yeah, Nice, I know the last time we had you on we were partying in the Animal House in eighteen seventy eight. This is a little bit of a different of a film that we're gonna be talking about today, that's for sure. Oh yeah, for sure. Well, Scott, I'm sure there's quite a few out there who haven't seen this sci fi epic from Walt Disney, So how would you describe this to them? A seemingly derelict space station somehow remains parked at the event horizon of a black hole, with only one living crew member on board. This discovery is made by a small crew of five people and one invaluable droid, who have to decide whether to explore the black hole further or escape with their lives. What begins as an exploration quickly turns into a MacB mystery and one of the most complex and often misunderstood Disney movies. So let's dig into the depths of the black hole.

2:31 Let's do it. So, I guess Walt Disney's dipping their toe into the sci fi world. As we know, the success of Star Wars kind of sent the Hollywood a blaze because they wanted to all jump into that. Scott, you and I just a few weeks ago, we're talking about Star Trek the motion picture. So Paramount jumped in on board there, and I guess Disney felt like they needed to do the same thing. So these movies came out with what two weeks within one another, in December of nineteen seventy nine, So you know, this is a different type of sci fi film. I remember seeing this in the theater when I was very little. I remember being in awe of the robots. There's obviously some very slow moments for a kid my age, but I still enjoyed this movie a lot. And I'm sure Dayton did.

3:17 Yeah. I mean, I remember Maximilian and of course Vincent Bob, and I'm pretty sure I had a Vincent action figure, and man, do I really wish I knew where that. Was a fortune now. Yes, because they did not sell very well, you know, and uh yeah, it's yeah, it's one of those things where you know, Maximilian was was scary and that was cool. You know. Vincent, you know, had the great wit and was smart and funny and he was goold and Bob was just funny, you know, and they were great. You know, they kind of burned into your brain. And that's actually what I always remember most about the film wearing robots same here. Yeah, Yeah, it's just that that Maximilian just scared the crap out of me. Man. It was like how Vader scared me when I was a little kid, but this one was kind of even worse because he had those spinning fans and just like, dude, I don't want to mess with that guy.

4:09 Especially for Anthony Perkins. Yeah, or Alex missed well, he kind of brought it on himself. But we'll get to that point a little bit a little bit. Yes, absolutely, we were recovering this and Star Trek the Motion Picture back to back because they're now that I'm watching them both kind of one after another, they seem like kind of fraternal twins, they do, right, Yeah, they're kind of misunderstood, often underrated sci fi movies that are big and sprawling and epic, a lot of similarities that I'm sure we'll get into, but often often maligned in sci fi.

4:49 And it's it's funny enough that these would come out almost on top of one another, because these are the last two movies that would have the opening overture that we would ever see in Hollywood again, and both fantastic. You know, Jerry Goldsmith's overture for Star Trek the Motion Picture was beautiful and John Berry's here was just as good in my opinion. So I wasn't aware that those things were commonplace. Yeah, because oh yeah, both movies, but particularly this one. If I was in the theater at the time, I probably would be the dad that goes to the lobby and says, the projector's not working, because I'm expecting like credits to be rolling like usually those like sweeping heroic kind of elements of the score show when you're kind of running the names of the main characters. I would have been like, what what is happening?

5:36 So I noticed this, So it's interesting the digital the streaming version versus the DVD I owned on the DVD, it literally says the black Hole overture while the music playing. Okay, Now, on Disney Plus Word streaming it has it's nothing but a blank screen. So I actually the first time I streamed it, I was like, because I was doing on my phone, I was at work, I was like, oh wait, where's the picture missing critical moments? Yeah, So when I watched it on my DVD, I'm like, oh, okay, say that makes more sense. I wonder why they chose to do that for streaming. That's weird. And I can tell you the color is different too the it's on the streaming version. It's brighter, but it also doesn't look as authentic, so I thought that was interesting as well.

6:24 The streaming version felt very greeny to me at times, very greeny, and I'm like, yes, what's happening here? But yeah, which is another reason why have a physical copy? Right, Dayton, that's right? Absolutely well, you know we follow that with this like sweeping kind of creepy score. Oh yeah, credits. Yes, it reminded me a lot. You know. Coincidentally, we're in the same year as Alien Right. Yeah, had a lot of similarities there, I think to that kind of opening crawl toward the ship and just getting Vincent's voice by Roddy mcdell, who is a highlight of this movie. For me, Yes, very much. Stuff he really is that the whole sequence of the Palomino, you know, slowly coming up to the to the sickness, and it's just like that was incredible. Man. You know, watching that as an adult now, I don't think I appreciate it as much as a kid that I do now because it totally sets that tone of this film.

7:19 You see this gigantic ship just just sitting there, you know, dark, nothing's going on, and just adds to that mystery and that tension and just like the crew of the Palomino, you want to know what's going on. It just pulls you into that story. I love that opening. Oh yeah, oh yeah. It's one of those things. Like what I really like about the movie, especially the beginning of the film, is it really leans into science fact. You know, it's you know, they're weightless and they're you know, they're the directions they're using, and it's it feels like they kind of were like, Okay, cool, we're gonna make this look and feel as real as we can, you know, considering it's you know, the year twenty one thirty so but whatever, you know, and I like that, And unfortunately that kind of as the movie progressed, that kind of goes away, that little touch of reality kind of goes away.

8:07 But that's okay because by that point we're just sucked in. We don't care anymore. But yeah, the shot of the first well you bring up the hologram of the black Hole man. That was so cool. It list looks so good, so good. Well, there are a lot of parts of that. There were a lot of parts of that, the opening shots when they're on the bridge of the Palamino that maybe I think of when we talked about Forbidden Planet. Yeah, on Doctor Simon, because it's a lot of you know, dialogue that sounds like you're running the ship. It's all like buttons and switches that don't actually work, but it sounds real enough, right, yes, And it gets you immersed into that kind of science fact aside from the star Trek sway that they kind of use when they're kind of trying to emulate zero gravity and it's like we're swaying back and forth like we're floating.

8:57 But it's a unique way to introduce your cast and a quick way to do it. And I like that because you don't want to beat around the bush on a film. You got to get to know your characters really fast, and in order to do that, you got to see them pushing those buttons and talking that jargon and stuff like that, so it makes perfect sense. You get to see also that the whole crew knows how to fix things on the ship, you know what I mean, when they have the things at rupture, they're all down there working together, and then you have, of course, Vincent goes outside and it's it's like, okay, you know, yeah he might be the science officer, Yeah he might be just you know, the young guy, but they all are trained. They're all aware of how to fix things. And I thought that was in you know, and this is only like the first ten minutes or so of actual dialogue, and you learn a lot, you know, in a short amount of time, and it's done very well.

9:47 Yeah. I like how quick they let you know that Kate has esp too, because they got to show that fast because obviously you're just going to work later on in the movie that yeah, he's desperately going to need that, and or the whole crew is going to need that to connect with her. They really introduced that fast. Well, it seemed like there was some kind of you mentioned when Vincent goes outside to fix things. It kind of felt like full circle inspiration to me, because it does. I do get the sense that when this came out that Vincent had to be influenced somehow by R two D two, Right, But we didn't get to see R two outside working on a ship, like rolling along the ship until the prequels. Right, it almost seems like that aspect of our two may have been influenced by Vincent going to work.

10:28 I could see that, Yeah, no question. I mean you're just seeing all these robots and all that stuff throughout this movie. So there's a lot of influence there because I mean, come on, that movie was so successful Star Wars that everybody wanted to jump on that bandwagon. Well, and they, the filmmakers wanted to make sure that it didn't look like they were really copying R two, So that's why they float. I didn't want I'm rolling across the ground. So it's a really really fun It's a short documentary unfortunately, but there's one on the DVD and that was mentioned on there that they wanted to make sure they float, and then the problem was like, well, how do you make these things float without you know, as before you had the ability to really digitally remove the strings and things like that. So they had some some pretty interesting ideas, in fact, shooting things upside down so those strings were on the bottom of the robots instead on the top, things like that. So but yeah, you know they want him to float instead of roll.

11:19 Yeah, yeah, I like that idea, and I like that they're floating around. It adds especially when they're like, you know, the actors are doing dialogue, you see, like Maximumian kind of like like hovering behind them, like floating a little bit. It just adds such another dimension to it. It really does. So creepy it is, and that red eye of his is just like the whole. Head like, oh man, just get the chills. He kind of seems like a grandfather to the recognizer from Tron Yes, because he has that kind of you know, boxiness to him. I just feel like they it probably was intentional. The first clue that Maximilian is a murder or bot is the fact that he greets the crew by taking out his Swiss army spitting blade handshake, right, it's kind of like, well, you're not using that on other droids, I'm pretty sure. So that looks like it's made for cutting up people.

12:14 Yeah, absolutely, well, I mean our main crew. We've got what Anthony Perkins plays, doctor Alex Durrant, who obviously everybody knows from playing Norman bates Uh in Psycho and in many other movies, but a lot of people know him from that. Maximilian Shell, who's funny enough, his name is Maximilian correct plays doctor Hans run Hart. And then Robert Forster as a Captain Dan Holland. Robert Forster has done a ridiculous amount of movies, Yes he has, he really has. Joseph Bottoms is Lieutenant Charles Pitzer. And then Yvette is it memo? Is that how you pronounced her name memou just because it sounds like a cat thing and she said doctor a cat McCrae. And of course Ernest born nine as Harry Booth as wraps up our main cast.

13:06 Of course we know the voices of Roddy mcdallans Vincent Scott as you mentioned, really makes this movie for me, It really does. And then I believe it's Slim Pickens is the voice of Bob, which is. Yes, I mean that's like, that's like the Schwarzenegger Divido twins, right, very proper, very refined, Roddy mcdoll. Then Slim Pickens, Slim Pickens, I. Mean, he's called Bob when it's got to be Slim Pickets. You know, his name is Bob. You gotta give him, you gotta give him that name, you know, that kind of voice. You know. I came up with that name after they shot the floating scenes, like what should call him? Looks like. You know, I've got a lot of memories of Bob, and of course, you know, getting to the end of this film, we know what happens to Bob.

13:55 It's a very it's very sad that whole sequence there at the end. You know, I'm jumping ahead, I know, but you know, Vincent having to say goodbye to him, it was that was sad man, and that was heartbreaking for me as a kid. It really was. Yeah, well, yeah, a good job of building a connection with them, you know, which starts with the eyes. They're very Disney esque, I would say, kind of expressive eyes that kids would be able to connect with. Weren't they originally going on to make like their eyes kind of like a ticker or something like that so you could see more expression. They were supposed to be digital, but that was way too expensive to make him, make him functional, make him work, So you know, but I don't mind. I mean, I like them. I think. Yeah. What helps is the fact that he's able to uh, raise and lower his head and his helmet basically, so that helps in like kind of giving him you know, like he's squinting at times and things like that, So that was a nice effect instead of having the ability to change what his eyes do.

14:51 So it really does, like when he's shaking and nervous and stuff like that, obviously the whole his whole body is shaking and stuff like that. So what little they had it they made it work beautifully, They really did. And I wouldn't want that taken away, So I'm glad they went that route. So what are the things? You guys enjoy a lot about this? There's so much in this film to really enjoy. It's the map payings they use in this. It's I believe this was Disney's what most expensive film to this date is that correct. To that point. Yes, And it was also the last of the old studio system films where everything was done in house instead of farming it out. So it was one last of Disney's that they did for sure. And uh yeah, I think there's somewhat. It actually had more visual effect shots than Star Wars. I believe it was five hundred and fifty visual effects shots on one hundred and fifty Matt paintings. Yeah, it's a whole lot. That's a whole lot. So yeah, read, but yeah, it looks really good. It does, and that that's one of those things that and you mentioned Star Trek the Motion picture earlier and I recently rewatched that, and they they do share as SIMILARI but one thing that sticks out to me versus that one is this one has a better pace.

16:05 I mean, yeah, there's some slow scenes, but you know, that's one of the things about the most picture that always kind of bothered me is like it takes forever to It was like, let's look at the enterprise and it's gorgeous, but it shouldn't take that long. It's like, let's you know, let's move along and we get to see the signals, we get to see that we get to see enough of the stuff. So this one, that's one thing I like. Considered that when it was it wasn't quite Star Wars pace. It wasn't quite you know, Close Encounters or whatever, but it had its you know, it had a good pace considering it still felt a little night early nineteen seventies instead of you know, moving into the eighties. But it was a kind of a good and happy medium. So I like that. And uh, yeah, the visual effects for the most part, still hold up even now, you know, I mean they I mean, yeah, if you're really looking, yeah you can kind of see, but I think you're involved enough to where you don't really notice it. So I like that a lot.

16:56 And what the similarities of these two films, most picture in a black Hole is you get this mystery right, You've got to figure out what's going on, who's Vagure in Star Trek? And then this you want to find out what happened to the crew of this ship, what's going on, what did Reinhart do? And then But to me, I love both of them, I really do. I love both of these films, but this one I felt like I was pulled more into the story of the black Hole than I was the motion picture, and I'm a huge Star Trek fan, so I don't want to piss off any of our phasers just at the stunts, no means, but this one it just felt like more of a darker mystery, like it was more human. Does that make sense? Yeah, And I think that's one of the things when you mentioned kind of the big, long, sweeping shots, it was to accentuate the fact that there's something wrong here.

17:43 Like a lot of zombie movies, like you know, zombie things like Walking Dead, the largest danger is the least threatening aspect of the whole situation, right, Yeah, they're outside of this black hole that can crush them instantly, and the most disturb thing is what's happening on the ship, the fact that it's this big empty ship where all of the crew left apparently, although there's that a few good men moment where he looks at the closet of that one crew member and he's like, but they packed nothing, like they like everything behind, and it's just everything we discover about it makes it more and more clear that there's something very wrong with the situation, especially the Cobra commander bots that he has the crew the pre squid Game troops. You get that sense pretty early on that it's probably the people, like, it's probably dead people that he's reanimated, because there's no way, as much as he's a you know, resputant kind of genius, there's no way that he is able to build all these robots, design them, run the ship and do all this stuff and park outside the event horizon of a black hole. Like it's as much as he likes to pretend that he has that story, it's just impossible.

19:02 And even when they reveal that it's shocking, you kind of know it's coming, right, that's got to be the crew, but you kind of like put that behind you, like maybe not. And then when they reveal, like, oh, okay, that's so that's so creepy, right right. Yeah, And I believe the one the the unmasked that was the director. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was a little cameo there. It was right, It was a perfect spot for it. Yeah. I Actually one of the things I enjoy is there's that you know, of course good versus evil, but they really lean into the evil, uh, with Hans always wearing red, you know, and even Max is red, and of course we know where they end up at the end of the movie. So it's like he's you know it, he's got the crazy hair, and you know, it's like they kind of lean into that hole. Well he's the devil, so why not make him look like it, you know, And he's trying and he's trying to seduce, He's trying to seduce them. He's trying to convince, especially Alex, who bought a hook line and sinker, you know, hero worship, you know, was basically his undoing. And uh, but he's he's playing that part. He's playing that role, you know, of evil genius, and you know, at times it's a bit over the top, but you know it's still uh, it's still engrossing and it makes you kind of go.

20:15 But you know, you could the whole time you're like, what's he up to? He's you know, you know, he's nuts. You know, he's out of his freaking mind. But you're still like, I want to see where this guy was, you know. I mean, you really could say that the black hole is the white whale for Ryan Hart. Right, Yeah, that's true too. Yeah, so I mean it's it's a doctor frankson. However, you want to look at this. You know, he's just obsessed with whatever he's doing and forgets everybody's else and eventually destroys himself. Yep. You know, So take that lesson listeners. And somehow as he's plummeting into that cosmic hell, he he gets like hair extensions or something like. It didn't seem like he had particularly long hair. And then he's gonna like twirling and swirling there and he's got all this like octopus garden things happening there. I was like, where did all that come from?

21:02 Right? No kidding, So, Scott, I know you mentioned to me over the weekend we were talking a little bit about this film when we were at Galaxy Coon and you're talking about because this is Disney's first PG movie, and that I believe it was rated G the first time. They sent this to the NPA, and they're like, and then they sent it back to like Disney's say, oh no, no, no, we got to make this PG. So they added some more things to make it that way. But I know you kind of talked about, you know, Alex getting ripped apart here. You don't see it, but you know what's happening here, you know. Right, right, which is which is interesting on a lot of different levels, not the least of which being to have Anthony Perkins. Not to be reductive of his career, but his most famous role at this point is Psycho, right.

21:50 So to say you have a Disney movie starring Anthony Perkins is an accomplishment in and of itself. He did an amazing job of being very solid spoken and you don't expect that there will be anything brutal related to him, yet he has the most brutal death. He tries to protect himself with a book which Maximilian shreds through the knowledge and you know all that represents and you see this horrified expressive expression that he's getting Juliann, and like, that's one of the things that earns it, aside from a couple of language drops, I'm sure that's one of the things that drove it into PG land. And it's a it's a bold decision. I'm glad that they did it, and I think it shows that this is a little bit more of a grown up movie when you have this, and that the era of Star Wars and it has you know, action figures being marketed and everything makes it seem like all right, well, I'll bring the kids. But it does have that evault, that adult kind of tinge to it, and it seems like it's a movie that demands a lot of patience to get through the story.

22:59 So that seals the deal. Ye. Well, I know they with this film and then going further, they were looking to get to make some more adult aimed films, you know, kind of we kind of go hind in hand with the family features, and this was the first one, and then I know Tron was also into that group, and it was actually this film and that one eventually. It was the whole reason why they created Touchdown Pictures was so it could have a separate studio without the Disney name on it. So but yeah, and I'm glad they did because you know, his death as you know, you know, his likable character. See it's it's a bummer that he gets it, but it's it's kind of necessary, you know. It's not that Disney doesn't have some really brutal deaths for their villains and their animated features, because they do. But this one was definitely one of those that expression that Perkins makes you're just kind of like, oh my god, you know. Yeah, So but yeah, no, it was. It was good and it's dark enough to where it you know, it definitely has more adult I saw it because you know, when I was a kid, because well, it was a space movie and that's why.

24:12 Yep, that's good enough for me. It's a space movie. I want to say, that's all I needed. That's all I needed. So absolutely, well, speaking of. Parts that are you know, a bit more grown up and take a little bit of maturity to understand, Let's take a quick break when we come back. Let's talk about that ending a little bit, and then we'll dive into some behind the scenes facts. All righty, welcome back everybody where. We are continuing our discussion with docu based seventy seven's Dayton Johnson. We are talking about The black Hole, Disney's sci fi epic from nineteen seventy nine. So, guys, before we dive into that ending, one of the things that I one shot in this movie that always just blows me away. We kind of talked about the visuals and stuff like that. It's when they are crossing the bridge in that meteorite, it's rolling towards them and they're like stillho on that bridge as they're running across man. Every time I see that shot, I'm like, Wow, that is absolutely amazing.

25:07 Yeah, it's it's definitely. I just remember the first time I saw that, I just couldn't believe how cool it was. And I'm like, and of course as I got older, I was like, how did they do that? Because it's because all things considered, it does look really really good, and you know, there's all the models and everything look great, and it's one of those you're like, Okay, I want to know what that is, and yeah, it's it's very memorable, and it's part of, in fact, the whole end of the movie. Once they realized, you know, what happened to the crew, and everything starts to happen, and it just a lot, a lot transpires in that last twenty minutes or so, and it's and it just keeps going, you know.

25:49 There it's they rescue Kate and there's a shootouts all over the place and the ship's falling apart. I mean, it's it's almost exhausting by the time it's over. And even when you think it's over, well we're. Not quite over right, We're going in the black hole. Then they start getting into the black hole. Yes, well that I love when the Palomino, not the Palomino, the Probe ship is going through, when they're like spinning and all that, you know, it's it's the spinning was cool, but the all the every time I watch that, it feels very two thousand and one, it. Does, and I like that. I like that. But yeah, it's uh that that was really cool fact you know, the spinning cockpit or whatever you want to call it. But yeah, that was it was interesting. And then them freaking out it was great.

26:37 Even even even the motion picture track. The motion picture did that slow motion in the wormhole, so you know, again similarities here between these two films, right, twins really But no, that that you're right dating that that whole scene where that I guess it was was that on Gimbals, I guess where they were just moving around and around. I love that shot. I know it was great because you're just like because you know, they're thinking, well, how do we make this? Because I did see that early on they did not have an ending. You know, they weren't sure how to end it. At one point they were supposed to be uh oh what is it, Michaelangel? Was that uh yeah, the Sistine chapel. They were supposed to end up there and which is weird. And then they realized because they even went there to the church and everything. They even went there and decided, no, we're not going to do that.

27:22 So they were still trying to figure out the ending. And so once you come come up with it, you still have to figure out how to do it. And the the honestly, the hell scene is great. I mean because you have you have Max, and you have you know them now is one. And the funny thing is, which actually makes it even more interesting is the design of Max's head and his look was kind of loosely based on the demon from a Fantasia having turn a bog. So so you put them there with all the flames, and I remember as a kid, I didn't notice the people that are there too. They're just like standing there all robed and stuff. So this last couple, I'm like, oh, that's right, I forgot about them. So it's you know, as a kid, I was like, you know, what the hell is going on? You know, And now as an adult, it's like, oh, they just you know, they really kind of beat you over the head with it. And it's okay because it's definitely a choice. And they even you know, reference it's the whole other world and all this other thing and so yeah, and you have the angel going down the hallway. It's just you know, and then they come out on the other side and it's sunny, you know, at least in the cockpit of the ship. You're like, okay, So then you go, where did they go? Because you understand where Hans went. But then it becomes the whole question of discussion, well is it another universe? Is it heaven?

28:49 You know? What is it? So? Which is fine. I always like those kind of endings where you have it leads to discussion, So yeah, it works for me. Yeah, the whole open ending I like, because you're right, it leaves you, as an is watching this film, like you could add your own ending if you want. You know, did they find out a new world that they're just going to go there and just you know, start creating their own you know, lives on a new planet. Who knows. There's all kinds of you know, things that could have happened end of this film. It definitely was a different hype of ending for a film. Oh yeah, I'll tell you that. I don't think I've ever really gotten through this movie before this most recent watch. Like I'm convinced that I have watched this movie as a kid, but I've never actually been able to finish it.

29:34 So when I saw that ending, it surprised me a lot. And I think that to say, at least like the Big Hair notwithstanding, but like after another viewing of it, it makes me kind of think about the fact that it felt to me like, you know, the Max Ryan Hart, you know, Merging or whatever, that is standing on high kind of over all of these other people walking through the this kind of hellscape. And I always assumed that the the the robed figures were like those cover commander bots, like the crew of the ship, if they're in the same place, if they're in a place like hell, a place of punishment, where he's kind of standing above as a as a ruler of some kind. I wonder if it means that parts of the crew were helping him to do what he was doing, to like interest, they were kind of slowly in on it, that it wasn't just him twirling a mustache and pushing everybody on an air lock. Because even the zombie factory that he makes the kind of you know, it's almost like Krispy Kreme, kind of the Carousel of Bodies cream again. But you know what I mean, somebody had to help him build that.

30:48 And we see all these different types of droids walk around, one of whom is Star played by Tom McLaughlin from Friday of the thirteenth. You'll get another minute, But there's only one Maximilian right He's like the prototype. So you know, maybe he's something that was discovered by Rightheart and that's what helped him get as far as he did. I don't know. He created him and he became the bully, so everyone had to do what Reinhart wanted to do because of mill Right, he's. Got the ginsu hands. Don't you mess with him at all. All right, well, let's go look through the lands, guys. Let's talk about some behind the scenes in those kind of details, because this film was fascinating, and anytime you get a sci fi epic like this, you got to talk about how it was made. One of the things I found interested was the sickness was a twelve foot long model weighing one hundred and seventy five pounds. Wow, that's a big model.

31:42 Guy, that's a big model. But you need about it right because yeah, when you see the size of that thing, you've got to believe that thing is huge. And they pulled it off. Yeah, it's a model you have to handle respectfully, right, because it's like there's a lot of delicate parts to this. It looks like the tower turned into a space station. And I'm sure it's just as fragile as it was heavy. So it's kind of like, nobody do nothing. Right, nobody sneeze exactly. I built this with toothpicks and glass. That was gonna say. For the backdrop, they they did a really interesting thing. They wanted to be able to put stuff in front of the backdrop so they didn't have to keep drawing or you know, doing Matt paintings or whatever. So they actually made this giant backdrop I guess it was like thirty feet by ten feet or whatever, and they stood behind it and randomly poked holes in this backdrop and then backlit it. So all those all those the shots of the stars were done through of just a backdrop that they poked holes in and and you couldn't you would not know. It looked so good, and it's what I mean because even the guy that was doing is like, okay, think random, think random.

33:00 Oh yeah, yeah, well, you know there had to be somebody from Disney on set that was like, all right, my job is to stand here and make sure none of you makes a pornographic constellation. Were watching, we were watching you closely. I couldn't imagine having that job po pop. Pope, yeah right, while I went to college for. This Yeah no kidding, geek. So I know. One of the interesting things about Bob apparently he wasn't battered enough when they first made the initial Bob, so I guess they had like a clay model. So Gary Nelson was just angry that he wasn't banking up, so he came in with I guess a baseball bat and beat the crap out of the clay model to say this is what I want. Bobby looked like, I'm like, okay.

33:47 But to generate that much anger, they gave him the toothpick job to star to ask for about three hours and then here's the bat. Yeah. Well it's like we went first meet Bob and he's falling apart, you know what I mean. He's just there's like pieces of him just falling everywhere, so you know, the poor guy, Yes, but it was too funny. Yes, I that's one of those that maybe and they have those places now where you make it and then break it and then I guess that made her feel better when he was done. Yeah, right, And it kind of reminds me of that scene where Bob was fighting Star with you know, the target was not fighting him, but you know, with the target practice and then he started kind of cheating and knock him off, and then Vincent was like, all right, you want to play that game, then I'm going to have to get involved here. That's the whole scene. Was pretty cool.

34:31 Yeah, it was, Yeah, it was. Well, and it's a it's a little strange, like I didn't notice until the second time I was watching it that he was doing Starry is doing all these weird moves, like behind the back, like he's showing off, and it's like, oh my god, this Star guy is such a yuts well. And all Vincent had do was just like spin and it's like, you know, it didn't matter. You know, it's like it doesn't matter what he was gonna do, it's gonna be better. So it was great. It was great. Did it work right as it did. So do you guys know what Vincent stands for? Oh? See, I did. He says that when he introduced himself to Bob, I can't I can't remember. Ah, oh no, I'm not committing that to memory.

35:13 No, I do. Information necessarily centralized. That's right, he's he's he's coming out on the winning end of that because Bob is the bio sanitation. Like, he's cleaning up their poop on a good day, on a good day, up there poop. So yeah, that's when I don't beat up. That's right. It's it's it's hard work cleaning up after all that entire crew. It is, although eventually it's only Ryanhart he has to clean up after, So maybe he's good. He Yeah, the commander, the cover commander bots probably still have to poop. They're all alive still, and they're not eating good.

35:59 I know they still have that giant. It's not that greenhouse, don't they. So they've just gotta go somewhere. But they're not getting top shelf. He's giving. Well, the left was like nobody, they. Just have a trough. They just throw the leftovers in. Is that what it is? That's kind of like the bell. I've never eaten Krispy Creams again. Thanks guys, your health, well, your health, thanks you. Yeah yeah, all right, yeah, any other interesting tipbits you guys might have found about behind the scenes. Uh yeah, Actually we mentioned how great the black hole itself looks. Well, so to get the visuals, they took a large, very large Plexic class tank, odded it with water and then also mixed in some paint and they caused it to swirl, and so of course they back lit it and whatever, and they use these huge lights to back it light it, and we're getting shots. And after a while the Plexi class tank shattered and all the water and the paint hit the ground and everybody's trying to get away from it, you know, kind of all uh hoo framed Roger Rabbit and uh so whatever shots they got were the only ones that are going to keep because it was too expensive to build another tank.

37:15 So they kind of made some you know, let's change the color and let's do this, and so they got the you know, they did a good job with what they had because you couldn't tell that it was the same shot. But yeah, that was well, well, we're not doing that again. There's money, We're not gonna build another one. But it worked, you know, and to their to their credit, it worked. Yeah. It's funny how sometimes accidents like that can come out to you know, get what you get and it turns out to be better, you know. Yep, so, yep, I guess it worked out in the long run for sure. One of the things that worked out in the long run was the fact that it did not get called its original title, which was Space Probe one. Yeah. No, no, you're not selling any tickets.

37:55 With that, man, No, you're not. No. I guess they asked like almost everybody that worked at Disney to come up with suggestions. They had over like five hundred suggestions, and the black Hole was the winner. So like, well, okay, I don't I'm kind of curious what the other suggestions might have been. But yeah, me too. But did the person who came with a black hole? Did he get a bonus? I would like to think so, I would hope. So yeah. I mean their budget was twenty millions, so you know, at least gave him, you know, like one hundred dollars or something. Who knows, h here's nexte hundred bucks in your check. Right, Merry Christmas. Merry Christmas, absolutely. So two other things that I uncovered that I thought were pretty interesting, not necessarily about the production of the movie, but more of the marketing behind it. So legendary comic artist Jack Kirby agreed to do the comic strip adaptation for this one. Ran for twenty six weeks and was scripted by Carl Fahlberg, who had some instrumental roles in Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs, Tasia, Bambi, a lot of other Disney comics, and even has connections to Scooby Doo, which hits home with me. And we mentioned the action figures before. In this era, I don't think you could make sci fi without some kind of marketing. I mean, Alien even tried with some kind of one standalone zenomorph. Yeah, so Mega was brought on board. They made more than six million figures and models of the Palamino based on it. It

39:30 was released in the fall of sony nine. Apparently, to this day, all of those figures are hard to find, all the comics are hard to find. And I probably should take a minute to apologize my brother Matt for snapping his snapping his Anthony Perkins figure at the win. It did like a wild bill like you know, you spin those g I Joe figures enough and the river snaps. That was man, man, that's sick. Yeah it is. Well, it wasn't like malicious. It was just like, I wonder, what will he be a helicopter and then the answer is yes, but just once, just once.

40:10 This once remind me my figures. And no kidding, there were a couple of things I did want to mention before we moved on. So, uh, the visual effects were very important to Disney, so they actually brought back Peter Ellenshaw out of a ten year retirement. He previously doesn't work matte paintings and visual effects for Mary Poppins was family Robinson bedding ups and broomsticks and just name a few, so they brought him back. And at one point they were trying to get the Dystra Flex camera from ILM that they used to shoot their models, but apparently it was too expensive, and so Disney created their own, the ace e S Automated Camera Effects System, which enabled the camera to move on on a matte painting, and it turned out to be superior to the one il M was using at the time.

40:56 That's what that's what you get. So you know, they they solved a problem, you know, and they got and they built their own camera. So there you go, the. Good old days. Man. When you you couldn't find what you need, is you build it yourself and made it, you know, the good old days. All right, Well, let's move on and let's score this film. Guys. I know we always talk about how important music is too films, and you know this is no exception. John Berry, who did the music in this did an out incredible job in my opinion. It's everything you want, you know, including that epic sweeping score. You know, there are elements in here where we can hear for me anyway, I can hear John Dunbar righting across the frontier. Yes, you really can. Yes, you can hear it. And I'm like, oh, I know this part, but no. When you start hearing this sweeping score immediately as the credits are starting to roll, it pulls you into the film really fast. It's a wonderful score. Yeah.

41:54 The only problem is there's just not a lot of music different pieces. There's there's one of like three or four actually different pieces. They just keep reusing them. But they sound good. They are well done. Like the really creepy one that plays behind the opening credits is my favorite, you know, because it's it's it's ominous, it's very it feels very sci fi, and I like it a lot. But yeah, but all the music's good. I mean, it's John Berry, so come on. Of course. Yeah. Well, and that that score you're mentioning has a very circular nature to it. It's almost like it's stuck in a loop, yeah, which seems fitting for a giant drain in the space that you're flying toward. There were some some moments where it was playing up the creepiness of the situation a lot, to the extent that I swear I could have heard heard some elements from Ghostbusters soundtrack when they were in the library and they're kind of going through that bookie music hit me the same way.

42:56 But yeah, John Berry is a legendary composer. I think you mentioned a few, you know, dances with Wolves out of Africa chaplain, but most notably a big name behind James Bond. Yeah, yeah, sure is. I wrote the theme wrote the theme to Uh Doctor Now, which I think is what we're all used to when you think about James Bond. Yeah. I mean, like you said, he's a legend and he proves it every time. So all right, well let's take a quick break. We'll come back. We will quote this and talk a little bit more about The black Hole. All r, everybody, welcome back, where we continue our discussion of Walt Disney's The black Hole. All right, let's quote this, guys. Scott, did you find anything interesting from an actor or any of the quoted about this film?

43:44 Yeah? Well, I mean what are the what are the actors that really captivated me in this one was Ernest bordnine. He he kind of felt like a Montgomery Scott kind of engineer in this one. I think he's kind of a character that could be easily be drinking, but he's with Scotty and Chief O'Brien in an engineer's bar somewhere. But an interesting thing that Robert Forrester said about Ernest borgnine that makes it just seem like what I kind of picture he would be like on set, one of those really good guys. He would say if there was something to be done on the set. He was not the guy who would wait for somebody else to do it. If there was something that he's doing. He'd grab it and do it. He'd pick up a room to push the trash around and get it out of the way if he needed to, And he said example for me.

44:30 So I thought that was a nice memory that he had for that. Nice that sounds like pine for sure. Yeah. So did anybody else catch the fact that he runs away in this movie? And he also runs away and escape from New York? It's like, is that what he started doing at the end of his career, just running away from people? That's part of his contract. There's a wedding scene, right, Okay, good, I get to run. Or if it's not, it's gonna be written in before he signs a contract. Right, I got to show my wife I'm exercising. That's just. Nice. They did you find any quotes? Unfortunately, no, Everything I looked up was more of a quote of from the movie or you know, about black holes in general. So I'm like, so I don't think they want that.

45:14 Well, like Scott, I did find one from Robert Forrester. Apparently he loved talking about the black hole. He actually talks a little bit about It's kind of a little long quote, so bear with me. He says the uniform kept shrinking and shrinking until it was so tight that I well, it was tight as can be. It was form fitting, let's put it that way. And it was the only steady job I ever had as an actor, six months to the day, working from seven in the morning to seven at night at the Disney Studio, shooting on a number of sound stages. It was kind of an adapt adaptation of one of my favorite movies as a kid, Twenty Thousand Leagues Under the Sea. The Black Hole was basically the space version, so it was from one of my favorite movies, and I could not believe my good fortune when I got picked to play the captain.

45:57 But otherwise I remember as a steady job in a very tight unifor for. Him, which I'm sure any male actor from Star Trek the motion picture is saying, Oh was it was? That? Was that embarrassing? I talk about what ifs. I know A very interesting one was that I guess Gary Nelson wanted Sigourney Weaver. Yes, yes, she went to Alien of course, which I think that worked out better in my opinion. I would agree with that, But that was I don't know. I wouldn't see her in this. I mean, I guess I could, but seeing her as Ripley now I can't see her as anything else in that year, at least that's me. Yeah.

46:38 Well, I guess the casting department turned her down because they thought her name sounded ugly. Wood good for us at Gourney, like saying like, no, I'll change it to Susan or whatever you like. Yeah, stick naguans And she chose wisely. I think we all want you know that choice. Yeah, the choice. Yeah. I also saw Linda Evans. Well yeah that for for that part too, so interesting. Interesting. So the person who said they didn't like Sigony Weaver's name, I hope they were poking the stars in that background, cleaning. Up the paint and the water from the broken plussing glass. Take that. Here's your toothpick. Wait, that's the wrong kind of toothpick. Can you start over again? I remember four?

47:22 I know we talked where I talked about it was gonna be originally called Space Probe one. Thank god they changed that. But apparently I guess for Ryan Hart they were considering, like Peter Cushing was one of the people they were considering for that. Christopher Lee, Donald Pleasants, Max even Max Vaughan said, oh, I believe yeah was up for Ryan Hart. I think a few of this could have probably done a pretty good job. But I like who we got For Rehinehart. I think he did an excellent job in this film. Yeah, I would have liked to have seen, you know, what those versions would have been like, especially like Christopher Lee. Yeah, you know, at times it's like I think of Maximillian Schell's other work, and this one kind of felt, and I have mentioned it before, it's like his stuff's a little over the top in this one, and I kind of would like to have seen somebody a little bit more in control. Like Christopher Lee. I think would have been an interesting even Peter Kushing. I mean we all know him, of course and love him from all different kinds of things. Of course, Star Wars the first thing I saw him in. But you know, I could have accepted most of these people. Donald Pleasants, maybe not so much, you know, you know, but I think you know, the only ones you mentioned, but all done a good job.

48:32 I think it'd be interesting to see, like lost footage from the screen test for some of them to say, oh, yeah, one if it was if it got to the costume level to see them in the you know, the Ryan Hurt costume, but you know, spitting out some of those lines. I'd also like to see how they would pronounce the name of the ship, because if I didn't watch pretty much everything with subtitles on our captions, I would have out the wind Reinhardt welcomes Kate to the ship, and he says welcome to the signas. For a second, it feels like he's saying welcome to the sickness, and I'm like, you're not wrong either, You're not fine, Yeah, little sinister.

49:16 Well, apparently it was originally the ship was originally called Centaurus, and then they renamed it Signus after Signal sex one, which was the first black hole that it was discovered. I guess, of course, I hear that and I think of Rush because that's one of their songs one the Rush neurded me and says, hey, that was a Rush song. I think they made the right choice though, yes, with the ship. So yeah, absolutely, all right. Well, let's rewind a little bit, guys and just talk about some of our likes dislikes of this film. Dayton, what about you and he likes dislikes uh so. Honestly, for me, we mentioned the visuals they hold up and the models look great, but honestly, it's the robots, especially Rodny mcdah as Vincent. You know, he's a bright spot in the movie. The way his lines are delivered just and and Vince is just fun, you know what I mean? And and like I said, from when I was young as a kid, and that's one I remember the most was apart from the giant meter right rolling through the ship were the robots, you know, especially especially Vincent.

50:19 So he was great. He literally was the I think his performance was the high point of the film. For me, I completely agree with you on that. That was my major like was the robots. Who wouldn't want a Vincent as a kid, no kidding, having floating wrong by me, doing stuff for me and just hanging out and being Vincent because he was cool as hell. He really was, well you know what, things were getting crazy, he was cool as. Hell, yeah, right, and dropping great quotes right, oh yeah, kind of a I felt like at one point I felt like it was a if Alfred Pennyworth was a droid. He's always schooling you a little bit when he's helping with.

50:59 Whatever need done, right, Scott, what about you? Yeah, I'll triple down on it and say the robots, I feel like, you know, I'm a little bit older watching this now, so I when I was younger, it was always you know, fascinated with Vincent and Maximilian. But now watching and I'm kind of interested in the kind of the hierarchy of different robots because they had different types and different styles or doing all manner of different things, and we probably saw a fraction of what was there. I don't know how Reinhart had the time to do all this, but sure so I imagine the first thing he made was a replicator of some kind, because it's like, otherwise you're not doing this. But Maximilian's design also stands out.

51:49 It's so imposing. It's basically, if you if you build a linebacker out of legos, really really you go read, that's what it would look like. Right. It's all shoulders, it's all chests and just you know, the spinning blades of death. You can't beat that. Although his the kind of side flaps that he used to levitate. Yeah, it felt like, man if I had that figured, those things would be snapped off in a second. Clearly dangerous with toys, but. Apparently so cheet. Stay away with my stuff, Scott, right far away. I won't be welcome back to the House of Plastic again. You're not allowed anymore.

52:29 So I do want to point out the the the humanoids, you know, with their masks everything. Those are really cool. I do like that look, and I liked the look of most of the robots. I got to admit the Century robots. I like their guns. But those things moved so slowly, and they were worse shots than Imperial Stormtroopers. Let's just honesty. They were terrible and uh and I'm just like, you know, I mean, I know, know it. It just felt like they were just man, you you could outrun them without even running, just like I'm just gonna, you know, fast walk to get away from them because.

53:14 We were I mean, we see them doing target practice and stuff and Star and all of them. But then when they're out there actually fighting is they can't hit anything. But apparently Star is the best one, like he was until he got blown up on the Death Star TK four two one is like, hey, you like me, know, like, apparently I'm not so bad of a shot because all of these sentry bots line up single fire on a bridge. You've got the high ground, so you've got the advantage here, and you can't hit the broad barn broadside of a barn, nor can you dodge like just. No, they really can't move it. Yeah, no, it was crazy. That's design flaw. It definitely wasta do better, buddy that they terrible.

53:56 Set them to self destruct, right, they could all just be bomb bots that run that. Okay, all right, let's talk about the whatever. Let's talk about the impact of this film, because obviously that's what you like to discuss for nineteen seventy eight, seventy nine films here at Film forty five, of how they had such a huge impact on Hollywood and studios and what they did for the future of film. Dayton, you already touched on the Big One because of this film and a little others. You know, Disney created touchsdoone pictures, you know, because of wanting to make more adult content films, and they didn't want to put it ano the Walt Disney logo, you know, because everyone expects a kid film for the most part when it comes to Walt Disney, so they had to do something with that. So we get a lot of good films through touchdown Pictures. You know, really we can think the Black Hole because of that, right right.

54:49 And even later when they acquired Mirramax, same idea. You know. In that way, people could see these movies that were under the Disney umbrella but weren't Disney. So and the digital opening that the green you know, black Hole that we see was all digital, was all computer generated and because of that and was successful. It was kind of a direct line to uh, well let's make Tron, Let's do some more you know, computer generated stuff. And so yeah, it it gave us a lot and you know, even who frame Roger add one of my favorite movies of the eighties was through Touchtowe Pictures. Yeah, so you know, yeah, that's a that's a big uh it. It was important. It was a important film for that in and of itself.

55:31 It is and I know this was a failure at the box office for Disney, but if you look at it now, I mean, in my opinion, it's a classic. It really is. I'll revisit this film from time to time, but I mean it made us want more epic sci fi films. I mean, granted, I know Star Wars was still going on. You know, we're going to Empire strikes back and stuff like that. But just really wanted you to have more of that, and of course starts. We've got a lot more Star Trek coming down the road and other sci fi films, so I feel like this helped with that. Yeah, it feels like it's the kind of movie that propagated some of the other sci fi slow burns. M right. It doesn't have to always be about you know, blasters or ships or whatever. It's things that can be a little bit more sprawling and I have a little bit more patience to it.

56:18 Yep. So yeah, that's good to see. Yeah, I mean, give us, give us good characters, give us a good story. You know, we don't need to have everything exploding in front of us to be pulled into that movie for crying out. Some people do, but you know I don't need that. If you give me a good sci fi film with a good story of characters, I'm going to be attached to it and I'm going to love it. And that's why I like The black Hole. Yep. Agreed. Yeah, all right, what did you guys want? I know Dayton's got a physical copy of this because he just showed it to us. So and I know Disney Plus is airing this, but Disney Plus's version is not that good. It's not. Yeah, I'm not quite sure how that happened because it's supposed to be you know, HD, But I'm like, I think I'll stick with mine.

56:59 Yeah, the physical copy on this one, Yeah, without a question. Watching it, I will say in favor of Disney Plus, I would say, if you want to try it, it definitely gives broader reach, right. So, yeah, I agree with me. It made it easy to find and it was like, all right, cool, I can get through this. But I agree, if it's one that sticks with you, definitely go for that physical copy because you know, to me, what I was missing was diving into behind the scenes figuring out how they made the robots move the way that they did. I kind of don't want to know because it's still like that mystery. But I think it's definitely one that has enough kind of story behind it that it's worth getting a physical copy.

57:41 Yeah, I agree, absolutely. All Right, Well, Dayton, thank you so much for joining us here on our last episode of a film at forty five. It's it's always a pleasure to have you join us. Well, thanks for having me. I love talking film, especially one that you know gets overlooked and gets forgotten, So I'm glad we were able to talk about it. Yeah, I know, we kind of had a conversation. I think it was last year. We were talking about movies that we were going to do in twenty twenty four and you mentioned the black Holes. Like, wait a minute, we're doing that. One is immediate Where we're gonna invite Dayton to talk about this movie? Of course. Yeah, we were in January of earlier this year, we did a bunch of in Scott mentioned Forbidden Planet. We did some sci fi movies, you know, one from the forties, fifty, sixties, and seventies, and one I was gonna do for the seventies was The black Hole. And you're like, oh, we're doing oh like never mind, it's okay. We did Close Encounters, so it's okay, we did that from the seventies. Yeah, and then we're actually revisiting that idea in January. We're doing sci fi films again. So nice now to tie it in. The actress to play Kate, whose last name we can't pronounce. She appeared in the Time Machine, which we are actually doing an episode or not on that, so so tie it into this one.

58:52 That's perfect. Yeah, yep, because of what nineteen sixties it was nineteen sixties. Yes, we're doing nineteen fifties. We are doing Godzilla Original Godzilla, Oh nice, We're doing the Time Machine. Then we're doing Time after Time, the Dark Crystal, and then I know Dave, you and Jeff will be on. We're going to do the Thing from another Planet or things from out of space versus the Thing, So nineteen fifty one through nineteen eighty two, so that's gonna be fun. So yeah, the sci fi episodes did really well for us, so we're going to go back to that and see if we can strike goal of the second time Awesome. I'm definitely looking forward to talking about that film with you day and that's for sure all right. So if you want to reach us, you can find us at www dot film by podcast dot com. You can write to us at a filmy podcast at gmail dot com.

59:38 You can find us on all the social media platforms. Well. Everyone. That is a wrap on the year nineteen seventy nine and a film at forty five. We want to thank our listeners and hope you enjoyed our trip into the past as much as we did. However, before we go, we wanted to make an announcement. Scott and I will be back next year, but this time we will be celebrating films that are hitting their fiftieth anniversary. We'll be discussing and breaking down a few big films from nineteen seventy five, and we can't wait to discuss them until our film runs start rolling again. Go out, watch something new, watch something different, and who knows what you will discover next.

1:00:20 Thanks everyone,