Jeff Bleckner - White Water Summer

0:00 I am sure you know the game six Degrees of Kevin Bacon, right, absolutely. We played that all the time back in Sun Coast, we did. Would you be surprised if I tell you that I can connect myself in two? Well? No, Look, okay, I know you've been in a couple of features, but you're not gonna tell me that you're you're connected to Kevin Bacon in just two moves. Yeah, okay, I want to hear this. I want to hear this. Still, I hadn't do this. So I was in Andersonville with William H. Macy, who was in Murder in the first with Kevin Bacon. He wasn't Murder in the first? Okay, whoa two moves for David Burns to Kevin Bacon. Hold on, I was in something with with you? You were? That puts me at three, So you can connect yourself in three. I'm gonna start bragging about that. He should as I should. Right, Well, I'll tell you what we uh. Speaking of Kevin Bacon, I found what I what I have to call a hidden gym recently, and I want to do an episode about it. So let's let's talk about a film by Jeff his nineteen eighty seven camping thriller Whitewater Summer. Hello everyone, I'm Jeff Johnson, I'm David

1:36 Byurns, and this is a film by podcast Dave. Let's just get this out in the open a little. We were in a little bit of a bind this recently. Here. We were meticulous. We plan our schedule months in advance. We actually have the entire lineup done for the rainder of the year. But what I can't count on is people are gonna take vacations, right and how dare they? It just so happened the entire team took vacation at the exact same time, same time. So I told you. I was like, look, we got to find something fast. I was on Tube. I was on the two b app and I love the two b app. Do you do you use it? Oh? Absolutely. There's all kinds of movies you can find on I love what they recommend. And this is the situation. They recommended this movie, this nineteen eighty seven Kevin Bacon movie that I had never even heard of. Ye, So I called you up. I was like, you know what, just let's just have a good time. Let's just talk about this movie. There's not a whole lot when you talk background information and even information on this director, there is not a whole lot to talk about it at all. But I definitely want to talk about this film. Yeah, sure, of course, because I didn't even talked to a couple of people movie buffs like you and I that were like, wait, there's a Kevin Bacon movie in the eighties that I haven't seen. I mean, we're talking Kevin Bacon and Dave. Here's my question to you. Yeah, if I say nineteen eighties film starring Kevin Bacon that

3:12 has camping violence, a misunderstood villain wearing a cable in that sweater, what comes to mind? Of course, Friday the thirteenth, as it should. Friday the thirteenth should be your first thing. Yep, that comes to mind. But Whitewater Summer actually classifies as well. Do you want to tell the listeners what Whitewater Summer is all about? Because I know there's a bunch of them that probably have not seen this like we did. Yeah, absolutely would love to. The strong don't give up, the tough, don't give in, and the cool don't give a damn vic An experienced Wolderness guide takes a young boy named Alan and three other boys deep into the woodenness on their first backpacking trip to learn valuable life lessons and experiences. Vic is very hard of the boys, pushing them to their breaking point and beyond eventually where they want nothing to do with him anymore and just want to go home. That is, until something happens that forces them to band together and help the one person that has done nothing but isolate them. Their guide. Vic. Kevin Bacon playing a villain. We've seen it, you know, the River Wild, Right, of course, that's the first thing I went to when I started watching. It was like, oh, this come reminds me of the River Wild, hollow Man. He played a great villain. Yep. But Kevin Bacon playing a villain in the eighties, it doesn't register to me. It doesn't. It feels weird. It does in this film, and I want to like him. Yeah, and you do it first. I'm gonna be

4:43 hot. Take here. I'm kind of I'm team Bacon for do most of this. I am too. He's teaching. He's teaching Sean Aston a valuable lesson. I think he is. And here's the funny thing is, I hadn't seen this movie in a really long time, Jeff, I'm gonna probably say him when it came out in the eighties, it is probably when I saw it last huh. At that time, like, I remember hating Kevin Bacon's character Vic, but then watching it now as an adult, I'm like, oh, wait a minute, I kind of side with Vick here. Yeah. See, I wasn't the fourteen year old twelve year old Sean Aston and his buddies when I saw this for the first time, I probably would have thought, you know, Vic is a dick, right, But watching it as an adult, I'm like, hey, you brats, Like, listen to Kevin Bacon. He's trying to teach you a valuable lesson. Yeah, I mean, think about this, Kevin Bacon. He teaches them fire building, astronomy, canoeing, fishing, climbing, climbing, whitewater rafting.

5:42 Yeah, these are valuable life lessons. This is the These kids don't know how good they got it, exactly. That's the way I saw it too. They don't know how good they have it. Maybe Kevin Bacon goes a little too far once or once or four times six. There definitely is a turning point in this movie where It's like, Okay, you've crossed a line because I see nothing but lawsuit here. Well okay, okay, but here's the thing. And this was the first time again. I saw this for the very first time a few days ago, and my immediately, my my, what the hell's going on here? Alarm goes off because Kevin Bacon looks like he has just left the wilderness. He's in New York on the streets.

6:29 He's got his big he's got his pack on, he's got his cable net, his his Betsy Palmer Cablenit sweater on, you know, Pamela Voorhees style. David might have believed that it was this. I don't remember this thing being a thing in the eighties. But he basically shows up at Sean Aston's parents house with a slide show to like sell them, yeah, to give a presentation. He's giving a presentation on why why you should give me your child and we should go to the Sierra Nevada Mountains. Right. I was kind of confused by that, actually, Jeff, I think, really this is happening and the parents are falling for this. Well yeah, well mo, and mom has that moment where she's like, well, what if one of the kids gets hurt or sick? And Kevin Bacon's reply was, and that's why I'm here, That's why i'm here. Oh and she goes, oh, well never mind, we're good. Yeah, and me and my dad's like, get this kid out of the house. Like, but I would think that they would. I get it. This is this is nineteen eighty seven. There's no Internet, but I would think that they would.

7:24 There'd be like a center or a business where you go or you call this kind of thing, yeah you yeah, is there? You know? Is Kevin Bacon with the better business bureau? I don't know what I wouldn't it was what Alan did that the father wanted to get him out of the house so bad. Oh. I know. My question to you, just based on Kevin Bacon's appearance, if you had to choose, is this a situation where his character Jack actually survived Friday Friday the thirteenth and has made a business, a lucrative business for himself, or because we're already in New York, is this Kevin Bacon's character Jack from Quicksilver He couldn't make it as a bike messenger and just decides, you know what, I'll just take some kids into the woods and teach them stuff. I like that scenario a little bit better Silver, because I mean the arrow through the throat. I don't think he's gonna survive. Probably not well. I was just thinking that, you know, alternate reality style, like Kevin Kevin Bacon's Jack character survived. But maybe it's Kevin Bacon's Jack character from Quicksilver. Yeah, switches gears, no pun intended. I like that. We'll play in that, you know, right, I like that. Yeah. Obviously his middle name is Vic.

8:37 Of course it was my Vic. Yeah. So Sean Aston, he plays Alan Block. This is the main kid. Yeah, he's the main character. This is this is okay. So they filmed this movie in Is in nineteen eighty five, behind of the heels of Goonies. Yeah, he's right off. He's walking off of Dick Donner's set from the Goonies right into the wilderness with Kevin Bacon Yip for this. My understanding is that the production company went bankrupt. Yeah, there's a lot of problems with this film. It seems like, yeah, like even he go back and do reshoots and then it got a delay and it was a mess, and then we and that leads to the strange Sean Aston narrator clips I heard that, and we're going to talk about Yes, we are going to talk about Okay, we're put a pin in that. Put a pin in that for sure, because he's he's significant. You can tell he's significantly older in the narration hips all right.

9:37 But I really loved his character in this. You know, I did too. Actually, I felt like I was Hilm at times, you know, especially when you know he's with the radio and he just wants to listen to the game. And then and I get both sides here. You know, You've got a kid who doesn't has never really had the wilderness thing going on and experienced because he's a city kid, right yeah, And then he wants to listen to the game. And then you have Vic who's trying to get them to experience the wilderness with no interruptions from the outside world and gets into it with Alan obviously with the radio. But I see both sides. But I felt like I could be Alan, I really do. Yeah. I I connected with Alan more more than I thought I would, Oh yeah, because I was connecting with Bacon quite a bit. Absolutely. Now, I love what Sean Asten's doing here in the story. But okay, let's just let's just let's just broach the subject. Sean Aston at seventeen years old, like now, he's like, you know, two years later and they they go back and they shoot these these narration scenes where we're pulled, We're pulled out of the store, out of the movie. You're breaking the fourth wall here, they're breaking the fourth wall. Seawan Aston is talking to us.

10:54 He's significantly a couple of years older. He's got he's he's got the mullet, he's got the Hawaiian shirt, he's got this Fairest Bueller. He's trying to do a Ferris Bueller vibe. It is definitely Fairis Bueller's with the ripping off here, without question, and it doesn't work for me, not at all. I can't stand it. I'm glad you brought that up, because that is my biggest dislike of this film. I know we talk about likes and dislike a little bit later, but I'm let's go ahead and talk about it. Yeah, I hated this so much and it pulled me out of the film for numerous things. One Jonathan clearly a whole lot older, which okay, I'll give you a little bit there because maybe he's talking about it. You know, it happened in the past. Of course he would be older. Sure, But the fact that they're trying to rip off Ferris Bueller here. I hated every bit of it. Yep. And it takes the element of surprise at the ending of the movie out of it because you already know he's safe. Yeah. That's because because Kevin Bacon, whether it's Inadverton or on purpose, he puts Sean Aston's character in several very dangerous situations.

11:54 Absolutely he does. And the whole time I'm watching the movie, I'm like, well, I know he's fine. Yeah, he's very fun, you know, unless this is like the of Sean Aston. That's but but you you clearly you get that it's not. And I just I hate how smug he is. You know, we open he's he's in the hammock and he's like he has that line about you know by seventeen you you know, everyone has three guiding principles in life, you know, sexual, ethical, and optional, and becomes options. I don't like camping, and I'm like, we're opening with that. Yeah, I didn't, you know, at that point, I was like, I was like, I don't know if this I might be slamming this movie. I mean, I love the movie, but this but it holds you out of the film, takes you. Every time it breaks to that, you're like, here we go again.

12:37 It's an interruption that that is unwelcome. Yeah, And to your point, I immediately have no tension. No, I don't worry about his character and all these dangerous moments. Fine, there's no threat at all to that character. That was a bad decision. And you know what happened. You know, they shot this in nineteen eighty five. They're trying to get more money together. Someone, some exec on Coke sees Ferris Bueller and says, can we make him more like that? Exactly? It's too late, So let's just right, let's just cram these narration scenes in, yeah, to make it work. And thankfully there's only a handful of them there is. Yeah, you know you got that going for it. Rest of this cat the other kids, Jonathan Ward playing Mitch, who I don't recognize from anything.

13:26 Nope, Actually he was in a terrible movie that I think. Jimmy Fallon always makes fun of Mac and me he was. Was he the kid in magot Me? I don't know if he was the kid, he might have been the brother or something. I do know he was in Mac and Me. We should have been saying saying that title is like saying Beatlejuice three times. I'm always scared when we I think that's maybe the second or third time where it's ever been brought up on our show. I'm always worried that someone's gonna take us up on that, on that Patreon situation where they can they can pay to make us cover something, and they're gonna they're gonna say that, let's not do that, people, please. Uh yeah. So Jonathan Ward is in there, he's you know, he's younger. He's like, he's like the one that Sean Asten is gonna connect with more. The two older kids. You got Matt Adler playing Chris. I recognized him. He was. He was like the shy kid in teen Wolf. He was the he was the dick in Dream a Little Dream that was up against uh, Ricky Butler, Yeah, Ricky Butler, not Ricky Butler, Yeah, Corey.

14:37 Good lord, what's the matter with us? What's wrong with Jesus? Good? Jesus He also played Jeff and Flight of Navigator. He became the grown up brother. Oh that's right, yeah, with recovered in nineteen eighty six. Yeah, that's right. That's where that's where I recognize him morning. Oh Yeah, that's where immediately recognized him from with that and then and then rounding out the group, Casey Martell plays George. You'll remember him. I know you guys, I know you guys are gonna cover this in uh in October, he plays one of the kids, one of the Leuts children. He plays Greg. Yeah, he plays Greg. Yeah. A couple of years later he plays a character again named Greg in at He's moving up in the world though here now he's now he's playing George. He's he's working through those g names exactly. I like this kid, and I maybe I'm remembering this differently. I almost feel like he was one of Kirk Cameron's buddies on could be maybe what was that show? That's my little goosh man.

15:48 You know I'm talking about, you know, Growing Pains, Growing Pains. Yeah, I think you're right he was. Yeah. I liked him in this though. Yeah, I just have a problem with the other three boys. All three of them can can can I talk about another just like, Okay, yeah, let's let's let's do it. So there are really two characters in this movie who I feel like actually have a story arc to them, Okay, and that would be Vic, and that would be Alan, because Allen's the main character. I feel like though the other boys Mitch, George, and Chris feel very cardboardish to me, Jeff, I don't feel like there's any story arc to them at all. I feel like they're just a generic character place there just to help the Allen and Vic story. And I don't feel like I get anything from them, just tidbits here and there.

16:37 But it still really wasn't enough character development in my power. Okay, I agree with you, but I also feel that that's that's necessary to agree. But I'm gonna defend the writers here. We gotta focus, we gotta say focused on Vic. Yeah, and we gotta stay focused on Alan. And the other characters are just they're buffer, they are you know, we they're there so that you know, because obviously Kevin Bacon is not gonna show up at your house and go let me, let me take your child on a weekend getaway into the Yeah, there has to be other children involved, and yeah, there they could be their their performance there there there's not a lot of character development. They're they're a little cardboard, but they're they're also I feel like they did a good job, especially Matt Adler. I feel like he did a good I feel like there's a good job of capturing what being a teenage boy is like and at alpha male. Yeah, that dominance factor that happens when a grown up's not around. So I'll give them, I'll give them credit to that. And that's I mean, that's pretty much.

17:37 That's the only people I really want to talk about. I mean we you know, the parents are blinking you miss them? Yeah, only one single character in this and that's the mom, and she's barely in the film at all. Yeah, Caroline McWilliams didn't recognize her either. I think that was a good moment to get let's spend a little bit of money, gets someone that we recognize, you know what, Joyce doy Wit hanging around, I'm sure she was at that time. Yeah, company over by the I think maybe, yeah, I'll let her play the mom. Let's move on, you know, I want to talk. There's a couple crew people I want to talk about. I definitely want to talk about Michael Bottaker. I'm gonna do this because Wayne, Wayne, our buddy Wayne White, has been doing this awesome thing, these little scoring sessions. We bring him in.

18:19 He tells you all about the composer does a fantastic job, an absolutely fantastic job. But I didn't want to trouble Wayne for this movie because let's let's be honest, it's nothing to write home about as far as less score goes. And there's a reason for that, which I'll get to. But Michael Botacker, he's only like he did this. He did Milo and Otis Okay, that cat movie, and then and then he does The Adventures of Bucker Rob Bonds across the Eighth Dimension. Now, think about how weird that that score is. I'm gonna tell you something. There's a reason why Botiker does not have a long list of compositions. Why well, if you need a synthesizer, he's your man. Yeah, Dave, I'm gonna give you this list. This is Michael Botaker helping out composers doing synthesizer work. Oh okay, listen to this hit list and you'll know that if you want a keyboard or a synthesizer in your score. This is the guy you talk to.

19:27 All right, hold your applause until I've listed all the all the films here, The nineteen seventy six King Kong, Saturday Night, Fever, Jaws Two, Foul Play, The China Syndrome, Apocalypse, Now Moonraker, Footloose, Revenge of the Nerds, Red Dawn, The Goonies, Back to the Future, Real Genius, Teen Wolf, Commando, Enemy Mine, Pretty in Pink, Quicksilver, Gung Ho Police Academy Three, Back in Training, The Karate Kid Part Two, The Fly, Night of the Creeps, Little Shop of Horse Three, Men in a Baby, Cocktail Twins, Major League, Dead, Poet Society, The Hunt for Red October, Pretty Woman, Ghost, The Nutty Professor, and Armageddon are just a few of his three hundred plus credits. Damn, Okay, that's impressive. So I mean I look over, like, you know, I got like fifteen hundred blu rays sitting on my shelf, and he's probably done a lot of I think he's I think there's maybe six that he's not in. Yeah, and a lot of those tough withs I recognize we've covered, we've covered, Yeah, we've covered on I mean, I went to a block of a film at forty five Films that, yeah, you and Scott have already talked about. I did.

20:41 There's a big chunk of nineteeny six stuff there, sure is, Yeah, and quick Silver popping its head again there, yeah, you know, and this is one of those things yeah, Quicksilver again. No, this is one of those things though where I was like, you know, there's not a lot to report on this film. So I just started to get like, well, who is Michael Boddock because I had his name it in register And then I went down the rabbit hole and I was like, this is impressive. That was a pretty impressive rabbit hole. I just wanted, yeah, I wanted to call out Michael Botaker, especially for the listeners who now because like when I read this list, I was like, you know what, now I got there's a bunch of these movies I want to I want to watch again just to listen to the score, and now I want to see like, well, is there is there? Am I going to recognize similar notes between pretty and Pink and say Commando, you know there's two connections you don't typically would hear exactly but you know, there's some bar trivia for you, you know, as Amber Lewis likes to say, next time you're you know, hey, what's the what's the connection between pretty and pink and Commando? He must be talking about Michael BOTOCKA of course, right, yeah, I do have to also call out, and I apologize because I don't the name's not coming to me right now. But this is some impressive cinematography.

21:57 Oh you're talking about John out Cock. Why is it John? Okay? Why is that? Names? South familiar tongue for one thing. John Alcott is a a was a good friend of Stanley Kubrick, but he also worked on quite a few projects with Stanley Kubrick as a cinematographer. He would work on two thousand and one, Barry Lyndon at Clockwork, Orange and of course The Shining. He would also do Gray Stroke. He would also do Terror Train and Jeff one of my personal favorite films from the eighties. That's the beast Master. Oh, this guy is the beast mest he did. He was a cinematographer on that, So quite a laundry list there in himself. Okay, yeah, that's John Alcott. Yeah, now that you know, watching Whitewater Summer and the shining Now I'm seeing like I'm seeing shots in my mind, like yeah, okay, those are very similar, but in a good way. Yeah. Absolutely. All right, Well, before we before we keep going, let's let's take a quick break, and when we get back, there's there's a couple of scenes I definitely want to talk to you about, sure and get your get your opinion on. So welcome back.

23:07 We are discussing the Kevin Bacon thriller from nineteen eighty seven, white Water Summer, my understanding, Dave. Originally the title was Rights of Summer, Rights of Summer. Yeah, I think that sounds better. Rights of Summer sounds better, I think so. Yeah, white Water Summer just doesn't roll off the tongue very well, does it. Well, it's not that it white Water Summer. Like if here's what here's here's my problem with the title. I'm watching I'm gonna I'm gonna, I'm gonna do a i'm gonna binge watch, I'm gonna do a little fun movie marathon from the eighties. Okay, I'm gonna watch Hard Bodies. Yeah, I'm gonna watch Hot Dog the movie of course, and I'm gonna watch White Water Summer. White Water Summer sounds like a teen sex comedy. It does exactly tell what it sounds like this. I get it. They there's a white there's a pretty intense canoe scene on the rapids, and then there's the obviously there's the rescue scene.

24:14 I'll put the climactic climactic one where they're on they hit a couple of class well, they hit several Class five rapids, So I get that, but it just doesn't feel that it is called that. No, this is yeah, this is more like a survival type of film. Yeah, So I agree, And I mean, isn't that why the kids are out there, and that's why Vick is trying to teach them like the rights of you know? So I get it. Yeah, Like like Sean Aston's dad, he even makes the comment he's like, oh, so you really make it make men out of these boys, you know, when he's selling them on the on the slide show. So I feel like it Rights This Summer makes a lot more sense to me. I don't know why they changed it, but again that was whoever whoever said, hey, can you put can you put grown up Sean Aston in a Hawaiian shirt and make you mact like a jackass.

24:59 Please. No, that's the guy that said right Whitewater Summer. Oh, it probably is same guy, same guy. It just don't know. It just sounds it sounds more teen sex comedy than it does like survival thriller. Here's here's a really weird tidbit too, Jeff. So, apparently this was like a fifty day shoot for this film, and apparently I guess it kept getting delayed and they didn't begin filming until mid September. Okay, So if you're dealing with the mountains and you're already in mid September, you're going to turn into a lot of bad weather coming up. So there's a reason why some of the film was shot in New Zealand. Apparently because New zeal Some of it they did because of the weather. They didn't have a choice. They had to go there, I guess for some of the mountain stuff, because they were filming so late into the year that winter was approaching and they couldn't do anything about it. So if you've noticed in some of those scenes that they're filming in September in October, you can see it looks cold you can't even tell the actors are cold. There's a couple of seats like he is shivering. Yeah. Sometimes I was like, you know, it's august. I get that it might maybe drops a little bit. But now that makes perfect sense. I can't fake that. No, you can't fake you can't fake foggy breath in ninety eight seven. You're not faking it.

26:06 No, not at all. Very interesting. Real quick before before we talk about some some of some of these scenes. Back to the music. I gotta, I gotta, I gotta give credit to this film because where it lacks a very dramatic cinematic score, which would have been fantastic. Think about that climactic canoe trip. There's no music, No, there isn't You're just getting sound effects. No, yeah, no dialogue, no music, It's just natural sounds and then going and I get that maybe Jeff Blackener is wanting to put you there in the moment. And I'll tell you right now, I've I've had the the the good fortune to be on a couple of white water rafting trips where we hit class fives. That's some of the scariest ship you will ever do in my life. I can imagine and the fact that Kevin Bacon is doing it with a compound fracture. Yeah, and he just kind of sprawled through the canoe like he's Burt Reynolds in The Deliverance, Right, dude, I couldn't imagine a more terrifying thing, especially that shot.

27:03 I know I'm getting way off track here, but that shot I got before we forget where they hit that, that little bump and Sean Aston goes just it's like he's someone flying out of it. Good thing he had a helmet on, because you are dead situation. Yep. But alas I getting back to the music, I think one thing that this movie does really well is it packs the movie full of really good songs. And we've got some good talent here. I mean, and you know, you you watch the movie and you you automatically recognize it. It's you know, Bruce Hornsby, and the range is in there, Journey's in there, There's a Cure. There's a cult song, which I know a lot of people aren't big on the Cult, but I've been ever since the show You Can't Be Serious podcast just did that episode on the Cult, I've kind of kind of a rediscovered and their discography, so, but some some really good music in this there is honestly, even the one I had to look her up because I didn't recognize.

28:07 It's a great voice, but I didn't recognize I didn't recognize the voice. But that song Paradise that plays in the middle of the movie, performed by Kaylee Adams, I don't you know. I'm gonna have to go back and look and and see what else she's done. But there's just some really good music. They did have a lot of good song choices for this film. I won't argue that at all. Well. Yeah, and even like like the montage moments and the fun moments where they're hiking through the mountains, you get these these these these these eighties rock songs that feel like they're right out of a juicy fruit commercial. Right, Yeah, it's feel good. It's feel good rock. It is. Yeah, I think that's what I'd like to call it rock. That's a good point. I loved it though. That's a situation where it's not packed. This isn't like a blockbuster soundtrack.

28:48 It's just I like it. And you know how, some some songs can pull you out of the film. These did not. They fit perfectly. If you told me that they had contacted these artists and ask them to write the songs for the movie, I believe it. I would. Yeah. What I don't believe are some of these dangerous moments in the film. Yeah. Can we talk about the rope bridge, the Temple of Doom bridge? Are you referring? Did you look at my notes? Because I have I have worse than the bridge in the Temple of Doom. Dave this thing. It's basically a bunch of petrified two by six is roped together. Yeah, pretty creepy, pretty scary. Credit to Kevin Bacon because I want to defend him as much as possible. Yeah, he tells the boys, He's like, hey, no screwing around out here. He shows them like if the if the bridge starts to wabble flex out here's how you stop it.

29:40 And yep. So he's doing a good job of teaching. I feel like Kevin Bacon that the teaching was the instructor a plus to a certain point. Okay, to a certain point. We're gonna get to the lawsuit moment and a little bit. Okay, So this bridge, though, I remember, I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna take you into the way back machine here, okay, because we kind of we grew up in the same area, and I hope you know what I'm talking about here. I remember going to camp. Oh yeah, I went to a camp who place? Yeah? Okay, do you remember did you when you went? Did you get to do the night hike? Yes? I did? You had to go by yourself?

30:21 Yes, down the trail, down the trail. Yes. How about the Strawberry Bridge? The Strawberry Bridge crossed this bridge? Yep. Okay, Now it was nothing, no, nothing like that. Literally, listeners, if you have not seen Whitewater summer, but you have seen Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, just take that bridge, but make it a little bit scarier, a little more rickety. Then you go a little more skinnier, you know. Uh. Yeah, it's that. It's that. It's that test your metal, right, it is. It's a it's a it's a it's a it's a confidence course type of thing. You know, you can overcome your fear, you can beat this thing. And you're so happy for these kids because like one by one they're like, yeah, I made it. Yeah. And then there's Alan and then there's Alan, poor Shawn Aston's carried you know, it's it's funny. Here's one of the moments that I agree with Vic when Alan forgets the tent poles yes on the other side of the bridge, and he has to go back to get him, and of course he doesn't cross the bridge and he comes back to so I couldn't find him. And then obviously Vic drops the tent pole right there and just basically said you are a liar, Alan, because I was watching you basically the whole time. Yeah, I agree with Vic here, like you little brat, you are lying. Yeah, it's like listen, okay, and okay, to be fair to Alan, he gets halfway across, he does, he stumbles and almost falls and practically falls off. He said, he's

31:52 literally Vic literally leaves him hanging. Literally. I mean we get that great shot of his his eyeglasses. Yeah, dropping hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of feet down to the gorge. At that point, you know, you get back up, You're halfway there. Just go yeah, just go, man, don't turn back or is it in your in your head? Are you like safety is back Maybe I'm heading I'm going backwards because I don't want to go. I don't want to go another halfway and then do a fool again. But it's one of those moments. I guess you got to think like a kid, Yeah, go backwards, go backwards. Yeah. But it's a good teaching moment for Vic because it is he's it's it's it's a valid Yeah. You know, if you were scared, that's fine. If you needed help, that's fine, but don't be a liar exactly. And again Vic was trying to prove a point here. You know, you forgot them.

32:39 They were your responsibility, so it's your responsibility to go back and get it. Yeah, and there's only what half a mile out there and a half mile back. I think it's like, hey, come on, man, it's only a half mile there and a half mile back. Right, It's not a lot. But when you're twelve, it's a lot when you're twelve. When you're twelve, that's that's a lot. That's the day in Jim class that you're like, man, I don't want to go to gym when we're doing in the mile. But is this is this the lawsuit moment for you? Or lawsuit? It was the Devil's tooth Okay, we'll get the devil's tooth here in a second. Yeah, and we'll get the devil's tooth. But before we do that, another lesson. Mm hmm, never interrupt Kevin Bacon's morning Tai Chi. Oh no with your radio, with your radio. Oh my gosh. No, And you knew it was coming.

33:23 It was I thought we talked about the radio. What was Allen's response? I didn't understand, or I guess I didn't understand something like that. He has a hint smart ass, smart ass because the great you know, we talked about character arcs and the great thing about Alan he starts off as his shy, inexperienced, scared child who's who slowly builds his courage, slowly builds his confidence because we got to remember it. Towards the body end the movie, he's leading the team. Yeah he is. But let's put a pin in that because I want to talk about that. We'll get that then too. But uh, yeah, maybe maybe we didn't need the smart ass. No, not right there especially, I mean it kind of it kind of was almost out of character a little bit. It was a little bit and uh and Kevin Bacon's reaction, which I would say, was borderline serial killer?

34:19 Like the look he gives him, it was the River Wild moment right there, when you say, oh, that's it's the River Wild Kevin Bacon, but without the charm, without the charm. Correct, Ye, it's the psycho River Wild Kevin Bacon. Yeah, I get it. Listen, I have my mourning routine. You have yours. Yeah, we do, we all do. And it It'd be one thing if he was just if he had just got like a news report, like because the first time he warns him about the radio, he's listening to the Mets game. Yeah. And again, you know when you tell a child to do something and the child counter get mixed a counter offer. Yeah, no, I'm the adult. You're you know, uh, go to bed, just you know, ten more minutes. No, no, go to bed. So even when he's like, no, come on, Vic, it's the bottom. It's the top of the ninth with two outs, and Vic's lake. No, we left that behind. Again another moment, I agree with it. I agree with Vick. You're not out here to listen to baseball games. You're out here for nature exactly. Yep. Yeah, Luckily there wouldn't be a third time with that radio. No, that radio met an end. Yeah, I mean well, and that was with who was Matt? Yeah against the tree. But moving on though, how about the fish cleaning punishment?

35:34 That was rough to watch. I felt really bad for Alan here, and obviously some of the boys did too, and leading him out there overnight. It was up to him because he had to clean it and he could come right back again. This is you know, you're not getting up from the table until you clean your plate, and you'll sit there all night. I remember hearing being told that. Oh yeah, I remember too. You know, Alan chose to be defiant. Yeah, I'm I'm not cleaning the fish. But here's the thing. Here's the thing right here, Jeff, I agree to an extent on both sides here. One, Alan was really intelligent and created a trap for the fish and caught the fish without using fishing poles, without really cheating. In my opinion, he was very intelligent. But then you have Vic who is wanting to teach him. No, this is you gotta do it my way. Okay, you know, I see both sides here, but I don't see going to the extreme that vict did here, because uh, he still caught the fish. Man. He still did his part, Okay, let him go. You're okay, you're your team Alan here, I'm gonna be team Vic. Okay, because Vic does point out he's like, Alan, you are He even tell as he's chastising him, he tells him you are such an intelligent kid. Is you really let me down here? And I was like, all right, go ahead, Bacon. I'm I'm laying this plane. I want to see where you're going with this. And Kevin Bacon's character Vic is he's trying to teach them the ways that the Native Americans we're going through this land, you know, that's why it's all about astronomy, even like he has like he's using Native American

37:07 astronomy. When Alan tries to correct him, he's like it's O'Ryan and he's like, yes, that's what we're going further back, but we're not that. We're not talking about that group of people. We're talking about this culture. So I understand like where Alan does this amazing, uh, you know, this ingenious way of catching fish without catching fish, But I also see vix point where it's it's a little bit of a cheat. You know, we're here to catch fish, Like the way that I'm trying to teach you, so you know, do it, do it the way I showed you, you know, And I mean really, you know, you're you want to eat. Someone's gotta clean the fish. You can't clean. You can't clean some fish. You know. He even helped me, jammed his finger in there and he started with one. Yeah, first, one's already done, buddy, you know, there's three more to go. You can do this, and even you know, and you know, this seems important because we need the kids, the other kids to start rallying with Alan, with Alan, and they're concerned for him. And but I love that moment where Kevin Bacon, you know, he's sipping his coffe and he's just he had that smile. He's like, we'll just wait for his signal. When he's ready, he'll come, you know. And then and then you have the whole thing of of VIC abandoning them, but just wanted to see how they're going to react and survive. I guess technically, okay, now someone could say this is another lawsuit moment for Vic's company. However, my and this isn't really is it really defending Vic the right way? But my my contention is that he's probably just off camera. He's out in the woods kind of

38:39 kind of like watching or he's watching them, could be studying them. Yeah, because they're scared. They figure things out, you know. I'm vic wasn't probably wasn't counting for a thunderstorm and their shelters will be destroyed. Wait and have radios that couldn't listen they have a radio exactly. But he's there the minute that they wake up in the case and they're safe, he's right there with his poncho. Hey, hey, guys, you passed the test. Yeah, you know. Now you're ready for now you're ready for Devil's Tooth, right you are, which, let's just we gotta get well, we gotta talk Devil's tooth here. Uh. I think this is terrifying for an experienced climber. Stuff they're doing and wow, like hiking up of the of hiking up a mountain is one thing. But I clearly believe Sean Aston is the expert climber in the Lord of the Rings movies. He has samwise because of what Kevin Bacon taught him in Water Summer and back to John Alcott.

39:45 This is some of the most intense cinematographer. I've seen this is not we don't have drones in eighty seven. No, we don't have background plates. I mean we do, but that's big budget stuff. I feel like someone is right there on this edge. Oh yeah, just I mean I got a little It made you uneasy, just like the character tense. Yeah, it made you uneasy like the characters. Yeah, you know every when they're looking down and you know you're seeing the edge of the cliff, but you see the whole drop off. I mean I was getting that feeling like, oh crap, back up. Yeah, it is terrifying. And then we get this, this this great moment. Uh you know I mentioned the the rickety bridge where he literally leaves sean Aston hanging. Yeah, that would not be the only time we get the ropes, the rope swing. That's brings us to the lawsuit moment. That's yeah, I feel like that's a real lawsuit moment. It could be I'm having I'm having a hard time defending Kevin Bacon on this one, and that's I think this is the turning point.

40:44 Would you agree? This is the turn that the kids are against him. Yeah, this is the moment where the kids rebel because at this point they're all like, you know, they're even calling Allen like when he and his nickname like dick face or yeah, dick face. Yeah they're not, They're they're kind of against him for most of the movie. Yep. But they become pro Allen here. Yeah, they're getting there. They're becoming pro well you might even say, like the the uh, the bonding over a piss moment, which so strange. Look, Dave, we both grew up with with our with our buddies, and I never once took a group p No, never on a camping trip or at a ball game or I was by myself at all times. Yeah, you go your way, I'll go my way exactly exactly. But you know they're but Alan, you know, he kind of he does a little self deprecation there. He's like, yeah, I'm Allan. They call me dick face, you know. But this is the rally point where they're all like, Vic, you're wrong. I mean this this rope swing. And when we say when we say rope swing, just so our listeners understand what we're talking about if they haven't watched this, there is a moment where they have gone as high as they can go dangerously high as they can go. There's nowhere else to go, and it's this uh tom cruise mission and possible too momente where they basically have to launch themselves, kick off the mounting, swing around like one hundred eighty degrees to the other side to catch the dangerously tiny ledge where Kevin Bacon is waiting for them, right, yeah, because he has to Kevin Babe. They has

42:15 to climb up to create the smell. And these meanwhile, these kids are not in like hiking gear, and they're just you know, they're in their corduroy pants and they're they're op shorts and they're you know, they're gene shorts, and it's just like, yeah, let's let's climb this mountain, which they're not mountain climbers mountain and they're not this is their first time on a mountain. Yeah. So this movie, this part, I'm just it's so scary. But they're all swinging across and they're all like, oh my god, that was amazing, and it's and and I'm I'm again I'm team Baking because I'm like, he just gave them an unforgettable thrill of a lifetime. Except except except Alan he didn't. And did you notice he's very careful to tell every kid to put and strap in. He didn't do it to Alan.

43:04 He does not tell Alan. He tells Alan jack Ship. He's like like, hey, and of course he you know, he does not have a good a good launch, A good launch, I should say, yeah. And now he's just dangling a couple of miles up above a rocky gorge. You can do it, just like you know, you know, can you grab an edge? He's like you, I can't. Yeah. So here's where I have to say Kevin Bacon was a little irresponsible because he tyes off and he's just say when when Alan wants to join us, he'll join us and walks away, and he walks away, he walks and will not let anybody else go back to help him. Yeah. Well, because okay, back to uh, back to Matt Adler, who plays Chris, who is kind of like a miniature Kevin Bacon. Yeah, he's even got to have Kevin Macon haircut. He does, and he's clearly he's the oldest kid yea that he know. Bacon's like, do you have a problem with that?

44:05 And I'm I'm I'm a big fan of Matt Adler here because he's like, I do have a yeahood his ground, and the other you know, Mitch and George are like, okay, we'll follow him. Now he made the stand. Now we're now we're all so it's a it's a great moment. But I'm so happy for Alan's character that they didn't double back and help him. Yeah, he did it on his Kevin Bacon didn't give in. Yeah, he finds a way. And it's a great moment, maybe the best moment for Alan when it comes to his his confidence. It is and I think this is gonna bring me to the one I told you i'd put a pin in it that I wanted to talk about. This is the character development that I'm talking about Alan, And as we know, we're getting to talk about when Fit gets hurt yea, you know, they hit him with the rock and he falls off the cliff and what breaks his his leg And then here we get Alan creates this ingenius this idea of pulling him up, yeah, you know, to help him. They're not going to leave him.

45:04 We're back up. Must to like the fish fish catching moment exactly, Yes, And there's a moment here where Alan's coming through the rescue thing. You know, we've got to rescue and we've got to take care of him. We've got to get him safety. And and I forget which kid it told him says well he left you. And then and then Alan goes, well this is different. He's hurt. Yeah, you know. Right then and there with so much character development that how much Alan had grown that quickly shows you that he actually did care about you know, life and stuff like that. You are absolutely right. This is a great moment and it's a good moment of growth for his character. Yep. A lot of kids in this moment would be like, let's leave. Yeah, But the fact that he recognized, like I'm not vic, I'm not gonna leave him. I'm not gonna I am gonna help, and he's gonna use his brain. He's gonna use this his ingenuity create this this folk room in this pivot system, which I thought was pretty cool, Like I bought it. Like it looked I was like, okay, because they're using like if you if you take a close look at that, it's it's like branches that they found and collected, its rope, it's it's pieces of tent pole you know, to kind of because my first thought was you're gonna cut through that rope if you're not careful as as he every time he's slide, he's hoisted up. But if you notice, they use like the metal the smooth tent poles to fall over it, so no danger of the rope cutting. It was ingenius. Yeah,

46:34 and it hats off to the stunt crew here too, because seeing that, seeing Kevin Bacon's character take that fall, you know, we're like the POV where he's above us coming to us and hitting on your laying on your back. Wow. Yeah, I just and it just looked painful, like Bacon. Kevin Bacon sells this injury as far as I'm concerned, absolutely, you know, obviously they got to go for help. Alan says, hey, I'm going to stay with him. Someone's got to stay with him. And then we get this climactic It makes the decision that they got to go. He's bleeding, he's bleeding out, he's gonna get wait. Yeah, and we get this climactic moment where, like we talked about earlier, there's no score, there's no you don't need it, no music, you don't need it, just the natural fountains, absolutely, and I like I like the moment too between Vic and Alan at the end, Yeah, let's talk about that where you know, I guess he looks over and vicerus, you are the most stubborn and the most stubborn son of them. And then and then what he say likewise, and then they have that bonding moment. Finally they they I think they come to terms with each other there they do you know, I think I think in that moment that I would call that the pivotal moment I agreed, where they they learn a little something from each other.

47:50 There's there's a compromise here because Kevin Bacon had and he's done this a couple of times in the movie where he's super proud of their effort and their achievement and he's giving Seawan Aston's character that and Shawn Astden's like, what is your problem? We failed? I tried to get you down the river and we you know, we didn't make it. And he's like, and that's when the you know, we get this. You're such as you know, some of a bitch, like you're so stubborn. Because the whole point was that he took the initiative he had the courage, he had the he had the intestinal fortitude to get him loaded into a canoe and at least try it. Right. They might not, they didn't succeed, but they got They got damn close. And the whole idea is like making the effort. I think Kevin Bacon's message with these kids, although he does, uh it's a little questionable at times. It's all about taking the chance, making the effort.

48:43 It's not about whether you win or lose. It's it's that you played the game. Yeah, right, you don't want something about it? Right? Yeah, Dave, let's take one more break and uh, and then we'll we'll we'll start wrapping things up. Welcome back, Dave. This is a This is a point where I always love to share a couple couple facts about the director. Yeah, I don't know much about it. A quote, Well, I don't. I can't tell you much. Here's the thing. This guy did one feature film, this one and we're talking about it, white Water Summer. So what has he done? Well? Okay, so he does have a pretty impressive television career. Okay, he's won the Emmy several times. Uh, dating back to a couple I'll just give you a couple of shows that our listeners will be familiar with. You know.

49:37 So he got to start I think with Welcome Back Cotter. Okay, Remington Steele. Oh, and won the Emmy. I mentioned the Emmys. Won a couple of them for Hill Street Blues. Oh wow. Okay, did several TV movies. Two. I really want to I want to hone in on here. Let's talk about in nineteen ninety eight, he did a remake of Rear Window with Christopher Reeve. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I remember the remake. I have never seen it, but I know, but I do remember it being done and I didn't know he directed that. Yeah, let me let me tell you a little bit about Rear Window. So, as you know, I'm a huge fan of Hitchcock. Oh yeah, Rear Window being my favorite film. Yeah, as you know, I am a huge Superman film, with Christopher Reeve being the best Superman in in my opinion.

50:31 Agree with a lot of people's opinions, right, yep. So this is nineteen ninety eight. Sadly, this is this is after his accident, Yeah, where he's paralyzed. And what they do is they update the story so that it's not the guy who has has a broken leg and is like kind of hold up in the South his apartment for for six weeks. We're dealing with a character that's paralyzed using Christopher situation. Christopher Reeve's you know, situation basically lends itself to that. Darryl Hannah plays like the nurse that's checking on him. You got Robert Forrester is like the detective who's trying to piece it all together. As far as TV movies go, this one, this one was great. It really was. I'd have to believe it's probably available, if not streaming, I'm sure you could probably buy this. But it's amazing though, because you know, originally Christopher Reeve turned down turned down the role. You know, he wasn't ready to use his his situation to in that manner. You know, they kind of rewrote the screenplay using his autobiography.

51:47 You remember the book he wrote called Still Me. They put a lot of that into the character and that's when he's like, Okay, well I'm on board now. So if you haven't seen it, I would definitely, if you have the means, check it out because it's one of those remakes where you can appreciate the original and it doesn't. The remake doesn't stomp on anything that it did. And you said he won an Emmy for this the director, Well, he didn't win an Emmy for Rear Window, but he had. He did win several Emmys for his television direction, stuff like Hill Street Blues. But yeah, please check that out. Absolutely and there is. Okay, so let's talk about his next project, because I do want to call this one out. I haven't seen it yet. I don't know if you've seen it. What is it? In two thousand, he does a two part mini series called The Beach Boys, an American Family. No, I've not seen that. Okay, I'm bringing it up because I'm actually I'm slowly being I'm becoming a bit of a Beach Boys fan, or at least i'm I'm I'm finding a new appreciation for the music. Our buddy the other, Dave Deaf Deaf Dave Deaf Dave, does the Apples and Oranges podcast, which is this. Uh, they do like a they cover the Beatles and the Beach Boys. Yeah, and they kind of they kind of put them head to head, you know. So if you're if you're a Beatles fan, if you're a Beach Boys fan. If you're a casual fan or like a diehard fan, definitely, I'd say it's the podcast for you.

53:17 Yeah, because I'm I'm a Beatles guy. Yeah, but I never you know, I could name you like two or three Beach Boys songs. Now I feel like i'd name you more than two or three. I'm coming around at the Beach Boys, is what I'm saying. Gotcha, But I was curious about about this mini series, so I reached out to deaf Dave. Uh Here's what he has to say. He says Part one is fantastic. Part two is terribly inaccurate and is heavily biased towards Mike Love's perspective, produced by Mike Love's buddy John stamos So. And he was one of the Beach Boys. Is one of the Beach Boys right now, like ever since? Like what Cocomo, I think. Yeah. Deaf Dave goes on to say Part two isn't flattering or fair to Brian, and they had to change Van Dyke Park's name to something fictional to avoid a lawsuit. Overall, I like it, even if parts of even if parts of part two aggravate me.

54:12 It's got excellent casting choice for Mike. They got the redhead guy who played the villain and Zoro best group bio pick we have though, So so there you go. If you're if you're a Beach Boys fan that never saw it. The authority on the Beach Boys Deaf Dave our buddy Dave Wright uh says, uh, it's it's the best one you got out there, so check it out, all right. Thanks. Other than that, Dave, Jeff Bleackner, he I'm kind of surprised that he never did another feature. Honestly, maybe it was a bad experience for this movie that he decided not to do any future. I guess if you get hired and then the company goes bankrupt and could be a pickup shots two years later, and maybe maybe.

54:54 But I have to I have to say I'd like to see Blackner do another feature. I think he's got you especially and you know I say that scene having seen Rear Window. Yeah, because this guy obviously has a flair for dramatic tension. As the Rear Window story lends itself to great Whitewater Summer absolutely lends itself to it. Does I recommend this one? It's it's currently streaming free on two B Yeah, and this is one I wouldn't mind having my collection, especially if there was a way to edit out the Shawn Haston narratives, the two year later things. Yeah, I could do without that, but yeah I would. I would recommend to see this film as well. All right, awesome. I'm not gonna pick on that part anymore. But the listeners, what do you think of Shawn Aston's narration in Whitewater Summer?

55:42 What do you think of Whitewater Summer? You can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x. You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for all of our film and TV articles. Our entire library is streaming free there on the platform of your choice, and as always, you can write to us at a Film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We might just read your response on the show and send you some of our a film by swag. Come back tomorrow for our Star Trek themed series Phasers Set to Stun, Wayne, Dave and Scott are covering Star Trek generations, and on Friday, we'll celebrate the forty fifth anniversary of Apocalypse Now on a Film at forty five listeners, you've probably noticed our audio quality has been a little bit shaky this episode. Much like Whitewater Summer, we had some production issues ourselves getting this one put together for you. Nevertheless, to all of you joining us week after week, hitting those like and follow buttons and subscribing on Patreon, we thank you you and we'll see you next time. M Joanna Kerns and

57:15 yeah, yeah, I know, Joe Belt. I can't think of the name of it, Jeff, how are we missing the actual though? We got to what is it? It's you know, it's the Kirk Cameron show. I know what show you're talking about it? Jason, got that guy? What is it called? On the tip of my tongue, Jeff, And I cannot. I'm growing pain. That's part. Let's just get back in there now