Mike Nichols - Wolf

0:00 It's October. We've got a lot of spooky stuff for our listeners this month. So let's jump in with a movie starring Michelle Pfeiffer dealing with animal attraction. Amber, we already did that this season. Remember Lady Hawk, she was in love with the guy who was a wolf by night. I'm not talking about Rugger Howard. I'm talking about Jack Nicholson. Right, So you don't mean the one where she fell in love with a wolf. You're talking about the one where she falls for Jack Nicholson. We did that too. Remember we discussed Whitches of Eastwickers. Jeff, I'm talking about the one where she falls in love with a wolf starring Jack Nicholson.

0:44 Oh okay, then let's talk about a film by Mike Nichols, his nineteen ninety four romantic horror film Wolf. Hello everyone, and welcome back. I'm Jeff Johnson, I'm Amber Lewis, and this is a film Buy podcast Amber. Before we begin, I do want to welcome our four new Patreon members to the Film By Family, Michael Bacsarti, Chuck Brian, Jason Mack and j El. We are excited to have you join us on our Patreon page and we look forward to interacting with each of you.

1:49 Welcome friends, Yeah. And listen. If you want to join the fun like these guys, all you need is an email address. And that's for the free membership, because Amber, we're doing we do a couple free episodes a month, and we do then we have the exclusive stuff, right, yes, and that costs you for as little as three dollars a month. You can get in on all of it. But let's get to it. Amber. I want to talk about Wolf. And I'm a little worried about your synopsis because the last one you gave me on the text thread was, and I'm quoting here, it's a film you'll watch it. Can you tell us about Mike Nichols Wolf?

2:34 Well, the IMDb synopsis is about that succinct. It just says publisher Will Randall becomes a demon wolf and has to fight to keep his job demon wolf. Did you notice. I mean, let's let's call it what it is. This is a werewolf movie. And yes, at no point during this movie, and I've watched it many many times, at no point do they ever use the word werewolf, which I can kind of. Like because it you know, where wolf can be a little it can feel melodramatic? Does it does it give this film a little more gravitas? Like does it make it a little more real that people aren't using the term wolf man or where wolf?

3:14 You think? I think so because I'll be honest, I hadn't watched this since it first came out. So it came out on on DVD or video or whatever, and I watched it, and I haven't watched it since, so I had like almost no memory of anything. Whoa no memory? Okay, Yeah, Like I literally was like watching it for the first time. So the whole time in the beginning, I was kind of like, is it's Mike Nichols, Like is the wolf thing a metaphor? Like is he really gonna turn a top wolf? Is it some kind of psychological thing? Like what is happening? But I liked how it played out where like you weren't really sure are we watching something supernatural or we just you know, watching a guy go through a mid life crisis.

4:03 Yeah. Well there's even moments in the in the scene like there's a moment where Michelle Pfeifer's character tells him like you might have a brain tumor, Like, yeah, you're you're symptomatic. Let's get in my rye before we Yeah, he's like, oh, I wish I had that, and she's like yeah, I mean wow, let's jump into this one. Jack Nicholson playing editor in chief Will Randall Amber this is This is a bit of a passion project for Jack. He gets final say on who directs the film, and Mike Nichols is his only choice, which makes this their fourth and final collaboration. I was gonna say it wasn't surprising because they work so well together. But I love Jack's performance in this.

4:50 He is amazing, so like subtle and he's kind of playing like a schlove at the beginning. But it's not real forced comedic, you know, like the guy who spills coffee on his tie, you know, and stuff like that. It's just real life world Weary's. A bit of a sad sack. Yeah. Yeah, he's kind of burned out, kind of down on his luck. Grass making these changes at work. Then. Yeah, he's about out. The door for a younger guy. Yeah. Before we get too deep into this, I do we got to talk about the wolf makeup because we're talking about special makeup effects. Legend Rick Baker, He's the guy responsible am or he makes an informed decision to kind of take inspiration from famous creature makeup artist of the nineteen thirties and forties, Jack P. Pierce, who worked on all the Universal Monster movies. And when you when you see how Jack looks, when you see how how James Spader looks, it's definitely got like that Wolfman of London feel too, and it's got that old skill.

6:00 It made me think of the Spencer Tracy version of Jacqueline Hyde where they did his transformation. Yeah, the makeup was very reminiscent of that because they didn't go too over the top with the hide makeup in that movie. Yeah. Did you happen upon the funny story that, uh, that Rick Baker has doing doing makeup for Jack Nicholson? Did you see that? Are you talking about the spirit gum story? Yes, tell me about the spirit gum story. The story that I read was that Jack had of course famously done special effects makeup before for the Jokers, so he knew that he was allergic to spirit gum, and he told Rick Baker this, well, you don't really like spirit gum. It's not very It's effective, but not comfortable, sir Rick Baker was like, ah, he's just winging like fine and used it anyway, And I think maybe there was like a mistake there too, like you grab the wrong thing or something. Yeah, deliberately like use it. But anyway, Jack comes in the next day with like a horrible rash and he was just I could just hear his voice go like, yeah, he is the spirit, didn't you?

7:20 Yeah to get I'm so sorry, yeah, causing Ricky boy, Yeah, Ricky boy, you use the spirit yea, yeah, because because Baker had some medical adhesive which takes a lot longer, does not work as well. And what I what I'd read about was he did mistakenly use the James Spader spirit. Gum. Oh is that what it was? Yeah? Well, and what do you do when Jack Nicholson walks in with a swollen red face. That's what I'm saying. All you do apologize. Like Jack from the Shining like coming in like darling, like my life.

8:00 Yeah, you know, Rick Baker is apologizing profusely, and Jack just says, let's not happen. Let's not let it happen again. You're probably gonna be very careful with the spirit. Come at that point, Oh my god, yes, Now I love Jack's performance in this This is this was It's one of my favorite Jack Nicholson performances probably. But let's talk about Michelle Pfeiffer. She's playing Laura Alden. Okay, I have thoughts. Are we doing spoilers? Yeah, this movie's been on since ninety four. We can one double. Check she percent is the wolf that bit him in the beginning. Well, hold on, just okay, settle down.

8:42 Like I was blown away when we got to the end of the movie. I was like I had I had a theory that I was gonna try and wow you with. Oh I'm so sorry. No, no, yeah, well listen, you are astute. Let's kick that. Let's kick that down the road for a minute. We'll get to that. But before we get to that, so let's talk about the role of Laura Alden. Sharon Stone says, no, no, thank you. A nett binning also turns it down. I think a net betting might have been interesting. I definitely think a net binning would have been interesting. I could, I can, and I can definitely see her having chemistry with Jack, but ultimately it's it's a miss Pfeiffer.

9:28 She asks for the part because after Batman returns in the Age of Innocence, she didn't want to do another accent, didn't want to put on a wig, didn't want to put on another corset, and instead just wanted to do something more modern, And on top of that, she just wanted to work with Nicholson again and Mike Nichols. So yeah, it's I'm looking. I'm looking at my notes, Amber, and my next note, I just I'm gonna read it to you. I have a theory I want to throw at you about her character, but I'll save it for later. So I love the fact that you're like, are we talking spoilers? Sure, she's the word right to the end. Yeah, yeah, Amber Lewis, it's a film. You'll watch it and then closing credits.

10:16 And then at the end. Yeah, everyone does at the end. But I think it you're blown away at the end if you make that connection, just because there was nothing to really hint at it before. But if you look at her performance and the character that she develops, this is Michelle Pfiffer being very like, very hard and kind of aggressive, and you know she doesn't fall for all of Jack's charm right away. You know, she's kind of holding everybody at a distance, So that could you know, into that idea of you know, she's an alpha predator that just kind of does her own thing, and.

11:06 Well, we're gonna we're doing it now because I got I got thoughts too. So sorry, I can't. I can't stay away from it because it blew my mind when we got to the end of the movie. No, no, I'm totally cool with it. Let's let's do this. Here's the thing. At no point is she ever bitten, not by Jack, not by James Spader. So it would make sense because we know at the end of this film, you know she has the eyes, she's we got that weird tracking through the through the the wilderness type of shot, whether she's clearly a wolf or she's about to become one. I had just a little bit of a like, wait a minute kind of moment when they had their their love scene.

11:52 Yeah, and. She sort of rolls towards him in bed and you can see her naked back and she has this like tattoo on our shoulder, like on our shoulder blade. Uh huh, yeah, right shoulder, and. I that just triggered me for some reason. I was like, that means that is what's going on. So I kind of feel like maybe that was a clue or something like. See now, now you got me wanting to watch Michelle Feiffer movies to see if that's if that's actually like, oh, Michelle Pfiffer got a tattoo on spring or if it's something because what I had. To google it, but like. A spider or yeah, something was something a little on this like. I could see her having a tattoo, but probably not that I don't know.

12:37 It's interesting, but listen, I mean, the only way she becomes a wolf in the middle of this movie would be the love scene, which I've never all the werewolf movies I've seen, I don't think getting busy with the wolf man necessarily turns you into werewolf. You have to be. So there is a pretty significant gap between you know, her kind of bidding him farewell at the end, and then the kind of epilogue of the cops showing up and her dad's showing up and she comes out of the house and she looks completely different, like she had time, even if she wasn't aware of she had time to shower, change her clothes, put on makeup, do her hair.

13:18 Like, Oh, she comes out in the slinky, like all black outfit where she looks like she's about to, you know, do some mission impossible break in shit. Yeah, so you know, there was definitely time for Jack to be like, you want to come with me? And Okay, so you're you're saying maybe off off camera, yeah, you know, maybe he gives her a little I. Don't think so. I think that was a huge reveal. No. I you know, you can support a few a theory, you can refute a theory. You can't prove a theory. But I'm supporting the theory. Michelle Pfeiffer was the wolf in Vermont that bites him at the beginning, because there.

13:59 Was a whole them too. Mm hmmm. Like I thought that was gonna be the Spader reveal. I kind of forgot that Jack bit him, yep. And I thought the reveal was going to be at some point we were gonna find out like they were all fucking vampires or were wolves and you know, like Christopher Plummer was one and like it was a whole coven kind of thing. Oh, that wouldn't have worked for me at all. I'm glad. I'm glad it's a pack with that wolf that he hit. There were several of them in the in the forest. And let's not forget she kinda is, uh, the black sheep of the family. She's gone for long periods of time. She kind of she's kind of a drifter. She shows up whenever she wants to, and she purposely takes like the guest house, which is like a country mile from like Christopher Plumber is a state. So I don't know.

14:49 I think I think she's I think she's a she wolf. But you mentioned Spader. Jace Spader playing Stuart Swinton. He is the protege of Jack's character. I I am a longtime fan of Spader. Yes, I think he rules. You know, I'm talking eighty Spader where I get it. You know, he perceivingly plays a jerk in some of some of the movies he does. But he's just too cool, you know. Yes, he's a little bit he's a little bit of a cad in this he's a little kind of he's kind of sniveling. I mean, I know he needs to be and I like, I like him in this, but this is not cool Spader, at least until he wolves out at the end. Then he's yeah, he's very cool Spader, but he's also a little invasion of your personal space.

15:36 Yeah, you know what I'm doing that scene with Michelle Pfeiffer, I was like physically gagging. He's a little too close, isn't he? Like she played it so cool and like held it together so well, and I. Was just like, oh, well, just and I haven't watched this in a while, so I forgot that he's a little bit of a close talker in that moment, which he needs to be because now he's you know, he's the intimidating Spader, he's the threatening Spader. Yes, but the whole sniffing at her down below was I was like, whoa, I forgot all about that, And you're right, she she knows the situation that she's in and for her to play it as cool as she does, I thought it's a great moment for her character.

16:23 Well, and I liked it that she didn't just kind of she wasn't just a damsel in distress in that moment, like she was kicked him in the face and smack. She's not the damsel or something. Yeah. I liked She's a fighter. I love her character. I love James Spader's character, just the fact that you know, you you know, you're like, oh, okay, he's an ally. Then we find out he's a backstabber, and then he's a shit shitty friend. Right. I mean, I love the scene in the bathroom. That was so funny. We're gonna get to that. We're gonna get to that. You put it in in that one. Okay. Uh more on this cast, let's suh. Kate Nelligan is playing Will's wife Charlotte.

17:10 Mm hmm. I've never seen her before. And interesting fact here, yeah I have. Where have I seen her? Have you seen the Franklin Jella Dracula? Of course it's awesome and she's in it. Mina, Okay, yeah, I completely. Forgot yep, And then a ton of things like you've seen her and stuff, you just. Aren't that Dracula. That's seventy nine, that's it's celebrating its forty fifth anniversary this year. I love that. My mom and I call that the sexy Dracula is so hot. That Jella is hot, Amber, Amber, you were talking about about Jack Nicholson being hot in the Witches of Ea Stuee.

17:50 Now now we got sexy Franklin, Jella and Dracula. Yeah, I'm wondering here. I oh boy. Mia Farrow initially has this role and has to drop out due to scheduling conflicts arising from the Woody Allen scandal. Uh, which I think is a disappointment. I really like her as an actress, so I think she would have been fine. I think she would have been great. But you know, I think. It's not much of a of a character, like I don't really understand why she was cheating on him, well, rather than just because. I would say that she was an opportunist, but I think there's that that that you know they're having that like the little dinner and she's talking. It sounds like she either she's a doctor or she's a pharmaceutical executive who's talking to journalists. She's a journalist.

18:42 She's a journalist. I missed that. Then, Yeah, she wanted the story about oh that's what it was, like a science breakthrough and they put her on a story about like a breast cancer medication or something. Yeah you understand. Yeah, okay, that makes sense. That also makes sense why they'd be together then, because he's the editor of the publishing house, so okay, all right. Speaking of the publishing house, First off, you can't not notice that that that publishing house. The offices are the Bradbury Building, which is awesome. That whole interior is just breathtaking. I will always associate that building with Blade Runner. However, I mean it's been used time and time again in TV movies, music videos. Just just digging around about this building, I found out it's a National Historic Site and they actually do tours. So the next time I'm heading to California, You're heading to California.

19:41 Soon add to my list. We add that to your list. Take some photos at Will Randall's office for us, because I think would be awesome. But Christopher Plummer, he's playing Raymond Alden. He's the new owner of the publishing house. He's he's the one making changes ambers. Speaking of changes that you wouldn't like. Initially, Marlon Brando was interested in this role. He would so far as to tell the producers, Hey, I think I want this, But they weren't interested in Brando. It was Plumber from from the get go. I mean, I love Christopher Plumber. I'm totally fine with this. Here's the thing, he I'm not gonna say, he's the villain of the film.

20:25 But he's he's definitely the hinge. Yeah, he's he's certainly an adversary. Yes, he's so damn charming. You have to like it, right, I love I love Christopher Plumber the whole time, even though he's up he's well, yeah. He's more. I don't know that he's a villain. He's just very self involved. So he's very focused on his publishing house and what he wants to make it successful. And if that is, you know, hurtful to people losing their jobs, he's like, eh, well that's life, you know. So he's heartless. But he's very charming, is he is? He's charming? Is he is the perfect word for his performance in this He's he's a debonair man and he's charming.

21:12 And I only wish we could add more scenes with him. Yes, yeah, I wanted a whole lot more of him. There were a lot of people. I mean, for this movie being two hours, which I definitely feel like they could have cut like thirty min's out, but there were characters that I wanted more of. Well, let's talk about one of those characters. David Hyde Pierce Old beloved Niles Crane. He's playing Roy, who isn't Will Randall's protege. But but is it feels. Like definitely more loyal to him. Oh, he's certainly loyal. Spader is like. Yeah, I think David Hyde Pierce gives this film a certain levity, like like I smile, I'm smiling when he when he's on the camp, when he's on the scene. Yeah, you know, because he just has these these quick little quips where he's he's enamored with Jack, you know, with Will Randall. But also, like you said, he's loyal, he's not.

22:07 He's not a cartoon character of any sort. He's he's just you know, he's smart, he's he's fun. And this would be the one I would have wanted to see a lot more of him. Yeah, we could for sure. How about uh, you know, we're talking Frasier. Uh for a quick second, how about Alison Janney. She didn't like her film and the second like we go, we fade to black, and then we're fading in on this party and you hear her voice before you see her, and I love the West Wing so much and love her so much. The second I heard her voice, I was like, Alison what, Oh. Yeah, I had the same feeling. It's like, wait a mane, Alison, Jeanie's not in this. Uh there she is? She isn't it?

22:50 And again back to Christopher Plumber being just so charming. She has some kind of odd ball statement and he just kind of kind of gives her the okay whatever, you know. But like you could tell she was melting even as he said, he kind of like blows her off. He try to rushes off and then she's like, oh he's so I'm. Like I'm like yeah, same, just same. I'm here. Yeah, I'll tell you what. Let's let's take a quick break and when we get back we can talk a little bit about this film's background. Welcome back. We are talking about Mike nichols nineteen ninety four demon wolf film Amber Wolf, So we kind of talked about this would This was a little bit of a passion project for Jack Nicholson. He spends twelve years trying to get this into production with his friend, author Jim Harrison, who, if the name sounds familiar, this is the guy that wrote Legends of the Fall. He wrote Revenge, which we covered gosh back in our second season. Ultimately the studio feels Harrison's script is a little too detailed and reads like a novel, which is not what you want to say to Jim Harrison. So he gets a little upset, he leaves the project, and because of this experience, he leaves Hollywood never comes back.

24:21 I mean, that's just I saw that criticism and I kind of didn't get it. It's kind of well, like, OK, does that mean that studio producers just don't have the attention. Span to maybe I don't know. Maybe they were saying it was like six hundred pages and completely unproducible, like yeah, you know, it was more the structure. It sounded like they had a problem with him. Like, guys, you can work around this. I would love to get a look at the original script and see what Harrison was doing. At any rate, Wesley Strick is called in to punch it up. Now. I bring this up because one of his suggestions is to change the role of Raymond Olden, who is played by Christopher Plummer. His thought is, let's make that character her brother instead of her father. And this info is out there, it's being gossiped in Hollywood. You know, people are talking and it probably wouldn't have been a big deal if someone didn't show up to the studio and interrupt the production meeting asking for a meeting to discuss playing the brother Amber. Do you do you do you know who I'm talking about?

25:32 Yes, only Mick Jagger walk a lot and be like I want to have a mating. Yeah. The Rolling Stones just showed up and you know, it's like, hey, I think I could do this, and the producers were like, I'm not telling him. You know, they look at him, they look at Wesley Strick. They're like, this was your idea to make him a brother and we're not doing that. So you go tell him. Could you imagine this guy is like, hey, make a big fan of. This word. Very often, it's gonna be a no. Yeah, tough day for Wesley Strick. Uh. In the production meetings, there's a couple of scenes I want to talk about Amber and I'm gonna I'm gonna kind of combine them. We're gonna do like little little one for ones here before we get to the pivotal scene. So first I do want to talk let's talk, let's talk Jack and Michelle. So we got the meeting. The the initial meeting with Laura and then we have lunch with Laura. And I love how the initial meeting it's a little awkward, it's a little embarrassing for Jack. He has a little bit, a little bit of an embarrassing moment, you know. Uh. But the lunch that he has the PBN J and and and milk, he is at the top of his game.

26:58 He's he's kind of it's kind of checking her here. So can we can we talk about these two scenes. I'd love to hear I'd love to hear your thoughts on on her character and how she handles. Herself well in hindsight, you know, as we're talking about this, this theory that she was was always a werewolf. The scene where they first meet, I think could show that very well because she has to know what he's going through. She like is right there with what he needs, hands him, you know, a glass of scotch and so here, take this. I'll make you feel better. You know, she talks him down. She's very like empathetic and understanding and even though it is a little a masculating for him, she gets him through it. You know, she's a good partner in that in that moment. But I was cracking up during the lunch scene because he's he put out one or two pretty good moves and she was like, hmm, I don't think.

27:59 So well okay, So he's nothing if not persistent, you know, because they just you know, like Christopher Plumbers like, oh, we're having lunch with the Buchanans or something. She's like, no, I'm having lunch with him. And you know, Christopher Plumber's got that great. Mom was like, look, it doesn't matter who you are, what you do. She she already knows I don't like you and I don't approve, so but then you know, she's like, hey, sorry, you're you know, I don't have anything. And he's like, ah, we're doing this and she's like, you know, and I just love how he's He's trying to make conversation in a polite conversation, you know, so what do you do? And she's like, what do you care? He's like, I don't. I'm like, yes, that was that is That is such a gunslinger thing to say to a to a woman that's being a little a little stand offish, a little aggressive with you. You know, I just I dig that whole, that whole thing. And then he like it. Then he goes forward. He keeps on and he's like basically insults her, you know, kind of kind of psychoanalyzes her and and smiles as he says, hey, here, it's ironic, you are your problem. And she's like, let's let's continue lunch out on the credenza or whatever she's said, you know, like he's he's winning her over, you know.

29:12 I love I love those moments. Let's talk about another good uh jack too for here, and I'm talking about where the wolf's starting to come out. So catching his wife with Stuart. He's got that weird half jog arms that is that was so funny. The hell's going on with that? That that that that you know, like dude, pump your arms like but but it was kind of it made him a little more primal, It made him a little more analystic. So I did dig it, and we were starting to see a little bit more of the wolf coming out. Uh, just the pacing that he does, like like a like an animal on the cage. I love that he could smell it. Yeah, it started with the scent. He smelled it on her clothes.

29:58 He smells Stuart on her clothes. She's supposed to be at some conference or whatever. And uh, and then we start to see like some of the physical feats that he's capable of. You know, he's kind of taking the steps two at a time and then kind of lunges and yes, yeah, yeah, yeah, oh fantastic. But uh, great moment for Jack. But then when he's like I would say three quarters wolf the would be mugging is one of my favorite moments in this movie because terrifying. It was terrifying, but I love the fact that these guys are like, we need some money, you know, yeah, and he just says I've got a thousand dollars in my wallet, like five, you need ten? Just like that. I mean, could you imagine like what's going through their heads at this point, like, hey, this middle aged man is taunting us.

30:52 And then then yeah, he goes from taunting to thrashing them and you know, tearing their throats out. But I love that moment, you know. And and Nichols does something here where it's not graphic, it's not overtly violent, it's it's pretty bloodless. Yeah, he pans over to the shadows. Yeah, we get to watch the shadow of this character just you know, full carnage on these three muggers, who, let's be honest, got what they deserved. I for being I loved at. The end that like granted cheeses mom, but like the one guy's mom was like crying at the police station, going who cuts off a guy's fingers? Like who does that? And I'm like he was, Robbie, he's a criminal. I'm not saying you know that, that's okay, but you're defending yourself.

31:44 So let's talk about the Will Stewart relationship for a minute. You kind of spoke about a scene that you you absolutely loved, marking your territory. Okay, I'm gonna tell you ever because I know you don't. I know you don't spend any time in men's men's rooms, but uh, there's an unwritten rule that you you never take the stall next to the urinal. You never take the one right next to the guy. You know, there's always a buffer urinal. You're supposed to leave one in between. And Stuart, you know, he made the mistake. He got right up in Jack's business.

32:25 Yeah, and you know. Why you get, that's why you get, that's how you get pissed in your Swede shoes. He's walking out, he just doesn't say he goes these are. Yeah. It was such a great line and such a great delivery. It's funny. It's the first time we see Stewart for who he really is, like the the intimidating Stuart because he's like, I am what's best for this firm. You know it, everybody knows it, you know, because he goes from like please don't fire me, don't let me leave, and yeah, he's just well. And it's one of those moments in the office as well where you're really seeing Jack like take control and he's like I'm not going out quietly, like I'm not just gonna roll over and take it.

33:11 Another great moment for Jack, just smiling, I'm gonna get you Stuart, and it just just walks out. Yeah, okay, what'd you think of the jump it to the end. Let's the showdown Will versus Stuart, you know, when they are fully wolfed out in the Horse the Horse barn I. Loved that they were still humanoid. Yes, I liked that a lot because it's just look right. Yeah, just to watch like two dogs fighting is a completely different vibe, but to see two animalistic men fighting is is just really powerful and terrifying. And I really was thrown Like from the moment Spader like kills the guard and busts through the gate. Like from that point on, I was just completely shocked, Like this was way more aggressive and way more physical and intense than I was prepared for.

34:16 I was like, holy. Crack, Yeah you're talking. You're talking amazing, You're. Talking physical and intense. This is a moment where again, we we've we've kind of spoke to this. Michelle Pfeiffer is not the damsel in distress, but how terrified are you for her in that moment when Will is locked up and Stewart is just going at her, you know, and she's doing everything she can to kick and get herself away from him. I'm legitimately scared for Michelle Pfeiffer in that moment, just how just how how abrasive he is, like grabbing her and pulling her back to him and you know, clawing at her and trying to get to her. Terrifying.

34:57 It was terrifying because you're like, is he trying to rape her? Is he trying to kill her? Like what's the end of the scene gonna be? And she was so smart. She's grabbing stuff like the fire extinguisher and you know, kicking him in the face. I mean, she was really intense, but you did feel that vulnerability as a woman of like she was completely overpowered. And yeah, I gotta say the way it reads, I don't think he's trying to kill her in that moment. I think he's trying to. I think he's trying to. Really, it's it's not so much that's a sexual thing. I think he's trying to emasculate Will in that moment because Will, Yeah, he's trying. She's got your left up huh yeah, And it's it's as helpless as she is. Will is helpless in that moment as well, and Spader knows that, and Spader knows how he feels about her. So I think that's the you know.

35:54 I just was shouting at the screen. I was like, rip the bed dallion off. Yeah, yeah, that's all you needed to do. And then you know he's he fully wolfs out and then we get this amazing fight. I absolutely love it. And I kind of did the fact that we're not fully going into the werewolf floor because yes, obviously the security guard wasn't carrying silver bullets and it is forty five a moment. Though when she unloads on him where I was like, oh shit, is it gonna work? These weren't super bullets, Like is he gonna die? Is he just gonna keep coming back? Like what are we gonna do? Yeah, but we get that moment where we immediately start like that classic thing in werewolf movies where you kill the werewolf and then he starts to to uh to turn back into a man. Yeah, you know that the nails start to shrink and the hair starts to shrivel, and so yeah, I don't know. I love this, love this, love this movie. Oh is there a pivotal scene for you, like where you're just like, this is the moment, this is what's making the movie for you.

36:57 I had kind of too. There was the scene where Richard Jenkins is plays a detective and he shows up at the hotel room and to tell them that uh Will's wife has been murdered. Okay, and so you're watching Jack Nicholson's shock and Michelle Pfeiffer's like trying to cover up, and you know, all of that going on. And then there's the scene right after it where they're driving to her house and Jack Nicholson falls asleep in the car and she's looking at him. He's guys foot up on the dashboard and she sees like mud caked all over as loafers, and you can watch her go, oh my god, this might be real.

37:43 She's starting to put it together. Yeah, it's funny you mentioned Jenkins because my my pivot, my pivotal scene definitely a Jenkins moment. And it's again it's the realization that she feels when she has the phone call with him, like the following day, Yes, and you know, she's like, she's starting to put it together. She's starting to think, Okay, Will has been telling me the truth. He maybe he is I don't believe it, but maybe he is a were wolf. And then she has this moment where she's like, do you still want blood and tissue samples from him? And he's like, ah, no, it's it's no use. I think we had some kind of a mistake because we found canine DNA at the murder scene, so the tech probably was petting their dog or we don't know. And then like the look of horror on her face. Yes, now I'm gonna be. I'm gonna be clear on something we've been talking about, how this theory of her being the the apex predator. You know, she's she's a wolf.

38:38 My thought is that maybe she doesn't realize that she like, like consciously, I don't think she realizes that she is. You know, maybe she's on a subconscious level. She she is attracted to Jack because of she's kind of picking up on his vibe, you know, as he's becoming more and more wolf like. But she she legitimately in that moment, feels a little a little scared for herself, like holy shit, like it's it's real, unless she's maybe thinking, oh my god, he actually really. Thought maybe it was she knew he didn't do it, Yeah, and she was going and like she knows who's in the pack, so she's like, oh shit, there's another one out there somewhere.

39:23 She knows he didn't do it. So it's never really put forth, but in your like when you watch this movie Amber, was Charlotte murdered by will or because there's there you know, we have the evidence there, right, you know, there's some there's some evidence there. Or was she murdered by Stuart? Do you think I thought it was Stuart. I'm thinking, Stuart, you don't want to you clearly you don't want to think Jack Nicholson's gonna wolf out and murder his wife. So it's gotta Stewart, right. I feel like he would have done it maybe in the moment, like when he confronted her at Stuart's apartment. He he didn't attack her, He just kind of gave her a disgusted look and walked away. Yeah, but I mean, I think Stewart is such a planner, mm hmm. And I think that he was much more quick to embrace his change, his physical changes, than Jack was.

40:20 Jack's fighting it the whole time. He's got the million, He's. He's kind of afraid of it. He's yeah, you know, And I think Spader was like, hey, this is cool. You know you gotta remember too, though, when when Jack goes to see the old uh like the medicine man. You know, he basically says, like, the wolf makes you more of what you are, So yeah, kind of kind of like a Jack on High thing, like you know, it'll make you if you're a good guy or Captain America. You know, you take it to take it. It's gonna make If you're a good guy, you become a great guy. If you're a bad guy, you become a worse guy. So I think that that would explain why Spader changes so abruptly, or I think it's right. It's he's embraced. Yeah, And I gotta tell you, as much as I like Jack's makeup as in the in the Wolf makeup, Spader's makeup that Rick Baker does is just awesome. Yes, I mean, he is terrifying looking while still looking slightly human.

41:22 That's the part that just blows me away is that you can still see that this is a person. It's not like teenage werewolf where it looks kind of silly. You know. And again we talked about, you know, there's some comedic beats here and there. I love what he pulls up to the gate. He's fully wolfed out, and the guards like, can I help you? He's like, George, I'm here to see Laura. George like begins and ends the sentence with the guy's name, and he's got such a delightful look in his face. It's fantastic. All right, Amber, Let's take one last break and when we can back, we're gonna talk a little bit about Mike Nichols. Welcome back, Amber.

42:08 I've decided to zag incident. Now we've been lately, we've been talking. You know, when we talk about our director, we'll talk about, you know, two or three things, we throw out a quote. Right, We're gonna do that. But then I'm gonna ask you a different question than I usually do because we're not we're not gonna specifically, we're not going to talk about his filmography, and I'll look at. That one of my favorite directors. I knew that, and I'm gonna get to it. Hold on, I think you're you're sad right now, but I think I'll make you happy. Okay, But let's talk a little bit about Mike Nichols. So a couple of fun facts about him. First off, Mike Nichols is the ninth person to achieve egot status, and Amber, for everyone that just heard me say that and is saying, what's that? You want to tell us what an egot is?

43:01 Like? What do you got to do to be to have the egot? Uh? To have the egot you have to win an Emmy, a Grammy, an Oscar and a Tony Award. This is not something that happens all the time, right. I mean, there's a very short list of people that have achieved this, and Mike Nichols is one of them. This next piece absolutely shocks me. He initially wanted to direct nineteen eighty two's First Blood with Dustin Hoffman in the role of John Rambo. Think about that for just a second. Have you read the book?

43:43 Yes, Now it's not exactly the film, it's a little bit different from the. So having read the book, do you think. I was shocked? But then I'm thinking about Dustin Hoffman, a marathon man. Yeah, and I'm like, you know what, Oh, yeah it works. Now clearly you don't see Dustin Hoffman and Rambo First Blood Part two. That's never gonna wear it. But Dustin Hoffman, like early eighties Dustin Hoffman struggling with PTSD and being a vet that's back home and has no one to support him, no one to talk to, no one to listen, and just not finding his way. I could see it. I would love to go. You know, we talk occasionally about the Alternate Universe video store. I would love to go there and pick up Mike Nichol's First Blood starring Dustin Hoffin. I'm I'm gonna put that on my list because yeah.

44:37 I mean, like you said, it's not the sequel is not Rambo. And the skills that that John Rambo has in the first one, like they're all acquiable. Yes, when you like think Marathon Man, Dustin Hoffman can pretty much do everything that John Rambo is doing in First Blood. Yeah, so it'd be interesting. Yeah, for sure, I'm gonna have I'll tell you what, when I head the Alternate Universe, I'll see if I can bring back a copy for you. Okay, thank you. One more thing. During the two thousand and three Kennedy Center Honors for Mike Nichols, Meryl Streep and Candice Bergen read what Mike Nichols calls the five Rules for Filmmaking, and here they are, because I know you're wondering what they are. Number one, the careful application of terror is an important form of communication.

45:36 That's cryptic, it's. Interesting, very manipulative. Yes it is. Number two, anything worth fighting for is worth fighting dirty for. Oh agree, okay, all right. Number three, there's absolutely no substitute for genuine lack of preparation makes sense. Yeah. Number four, if you think there's good in everybody. You haven't met everybody. Mike Nichols telling it like it is number five. Friends may come and go, but enemies will certainly become studio heads. Gotta love the snark of this guy.

46:25 And let me throw a quote at you. Talking about working with Jack Nicholson, he says, and I'm quoting here, Jack is the sort of guy who takes parts others have turned down, might turn down, and explodes them into something nobody could have conceived of. All of his brilliance of character and gesture is consumed and made invisible by the expanse of his nature. Wow. Very deep. Right, Yes, So I told you we're not gonna go through his filmography, and you are not happy about that? Why am I doing it? Yeah? You're like, this is a we're friends. You're like, I got another another Michelle fiv for movie, another Jack Nicholson movie. It's my director that I really like. But here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna ask you if someone had never seen a film by Mike Nichols, what hey, Han solo, don't choot from the hip. You don't know where I'm gonna go with this? All right? For everyone that that didn't catch that. I'll repeat myself if someone had never seen a film by Mike Nichols, pause for dramatic effects.

47:46 What are your three recommendations? Oh? I get three? Okay, yes, give me you three. I got my three. I want to see what you know. You're a fan of Mike Nichols. I want to see, like, think about this. Someone is like, I don't know him. You have a responsibility here, Embert. What are you gonna What three movies are you gonna show this person to make them a fan of White Nichols. Well, so, I'm not a huge fan of his early filmography. I haven't seen them all, but the ones I have I'm kind of like it. Just so starting in the eighties is when I and on is when I'm just a huge, huge fan. So I would say that, first of all, I'm a cheat, because why not?

48:31 What is your name? Scott Hoffman? Is that what's happening here? Because I'm the voice of reason and you'll see why I'm right. Okay, I'm gonna send this person to YouTube and tell them to look up Nichols and may what a hell that he started his career in the sixties doing comedy routines with Elaine May, and they were known as Nichols and May. Okay, and they do absolutely hysterical sets. All right, So you're cashing in. You're cashing in one of your choices that go on. YouTube and watch one of their bits, like they are hysterical.

49:14 So I'm gonna give up a movie. Uh, just you mentioned you mentioned her? Okay, So you mentioned her? Uh are you aware that she is the the hotel operator that wakes Jack Nicholson up. No, I couldn't hear it. That's her voice. Oh my gosh, hey you she's like you ask for a wake up cob and trying to reach you. You've been a bad funny because they do a whole telephone bit that that's her. Oh my god. I have to watch it with like headphones or something because I didn't hear at all. I thought it was like a one sided conversation. No, he's like, actually I'd been a good boy. You know. He's getting a little flirty with her on the phone. All right, So you you just burned one of your picks.

49:55 So what to wat Nichols films? Are you going to suggest to this person? And then I am going to say, for an example of just directing amazing performances and just creating like a whole reality Silkwood. Good good choice, good choice. It is so incredibly believable, just just breathtakingly amazing. And then my number one. Guess your number, your your your last pick, but you are story shot from the hips, shot from the hip pond. Yeah. Working Girl absolutely one of my all time favorite.

50:39 I could quote the entire movie. I watched this movie all the time, like, Working Girl is absolutely one of the best movies ever. All Right, I just wrote down if you were playing by the rules, I just wrote down the film, the Mike Nichols film that I had expected you to say. So I'll tell you what I'll give you. I'll get a free pass on the YouTube, Like, hey, while you wait to go to the video store, check out this, you know YouTube clip. We'll just say you could have that. So what would be your third choice? I know what you're going to pick, and I wrote it down here. I want to see if I'm right, do you though I do?

51:23 It's so hard. I love them all. Only one come. I'm gonna say the bird cage. What. Yeah, I'm gonna say the bird cage. That's not what I had. I know that's a bird Cage is a remake, Yeah, and I thought, I thought, Amberlis is like, you know what, I want to say, bird cage, but I'm not because it's actually a remake. And that's why I'm going And I. Love the stage musical is if you head over to Docum Base seventy seven, we did a Lakacha fall versus the bird Cage and we broke it all down, and the whole time I'm yelling at Dayton and Robert going, yeah, but it's the musical though.

52:04 You know what, here's what you're supposed to say. I'm gonna show you what do you have? Look what I look what I wrote? Oh my god, I almost said it to I know you did he wrote down. Heartburn, Heartburn nineteen eighty six because you're like. His knowing of my mind. And I shouldn't have done that because I really almost said that one. Do you remember the conversation we had when you were like, hey, we're doing you did this nineteen eighty six series and we got a couple more so when are we doing heartburn? I was like, uh no, we're not. You gave me the business. Yeah, you gave me the business that day. I'll remind you. So I'll tell you what. I love that movie so much. I like that. Your three and a half picks are not my picks. Just like, Hey, Nichols is a great director.

52:53 He's gonna he's he's all kinds of appeal. So I'm gonna go with if someone's in front of me, they're like, give me three Nichols movies. I'm gonna say, watch the Graduate Classic. What do you mean We'll get to that. We'll get to that another time. I'm gonna say, watch Wolf because it's awesome. Oh yeah, yeah. And lastly, you talked about getting great performances out of people. I'm gonna go Harrison Ford in regarding Henry. It is so good. It's amazing. It is, it is, it is. I'll tell you what, you were a good sport. We'll take a look at Mike nichols pomography. Maybe, well, we can do a Mike Nichols movie. We'll do another one next season, how about that?

53:36 Yeah? And I'll you know, we listen to we typically focus on underrated movies. But I'm gonna give you card Blanche pick pick the one that we haven't done. So we're obviously we're not gonna talk about Wolf again. But yeah, and we're not doing it. We're not doing the Bard Cage because I'll just tell people to go listen to Docum Bay seventy seven. Yes, because it's that episode. Is it was good? Anytime you Robert get together, it's always. I was gonna say anytime Robert and I especially, I think when we argue, it's a better episode when we disagree, it. Is all right. Uh Amber, your recommendation for. Wolf, Oh my gosh, I was so like, where has this movie been on my life? Like? This is definitely going in the the spooky list of stuff to hit up in October.

54:24 Yeah, I'll say, I'll say it's a top ten werewolf movie. So put in Yeah, put in your rotation this Halloe season listeners, We want to know what you think of Wolf. Let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for film and TV articles and our entire library, which is streaming free. You can write to us at a Film by a Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some a film by Swag. Please join us tomorrow for our Star Trek theme series Phaser Set to Stun. Wayne, David, and Scott are continuing their conversation about the next generation movies with Star Trek Insurrection.

55:13 I can't wait to hear this one. I there they they got like two left, I think so yeah. And then Lower Dex is coming back. I know they're gonna be talking about Lower Ducks every week. So I'm excited for it too. I'll say what use I'm excited for. On Friday, our limited series A Film at forty five will celebrate the forty fifth anniversary of the Amityville Horror. Oh yes, and hot Dog. Oh yeah, Wayne, Wayne's gonna join them on that one, and I'm gonna I'm gonna gonna put it out there. Wayne not a fan of the Amityville Horror because of how super scary it is. They're making this, poor man watch the movie, just baby. Yeah. So you know, prayers for Wayne and Namber for all of you out there subscribing to our Patreon. Andrew Blakelee and I are taking ten minutes to discuss two minutes from Alfred Hitchcock's masterpiece Psycho.

56:13 Ooh, I can't wait for this, you guys, this is definitely worth the Patreon subscription. I love this series and I'm very excited for this one. Andrew Blakely is absolutely brilliants. Two minutes, He'll Amber, he just hits me up, he says, hey, let's do let's do ten minutes on this movie. I'm like, and this is one. Of my all time favorites. So I cannot And. I'm gonna tell you. I'm gonna leave you on the hook here because there's a very famous scene in Psycho. Obviously, yes, but we're not talking about that one. That makes it even better. Yes, Amber, it's always a pleasure talking with you. Glad you're back always. I know you're coming back a couple of weeks, so you know, yes, talk about where us.

57:00 We're gonna be talking about Vampire soon enough. And to those of you listening or perhaps lurking on our social media channels and haunting our Patreon, we wish you a frightfully fun time until we return.