Shane Black - Kiss Kiss Bang Bang

0:00 So last week we were discussing George Lucas's THHX eleven thirty eight, which is about as non Christmasy as it gets. You're not wrong, we said, we said we'd be back next week. We would talk, we'd talk about something a little more in line with the holiday. But hey, you know, we just just as past weekend we did talk about Rudolph the Red News Reindeer on our ten for two on Patreon. So we're getting there. Right, Yeah, absolutely getting in the season. You know what. You know what else actually always gets me in the Christmas season. Shane Black, Shane Black, the King of Christmas.

0:44 Yes, every movie is made better with a Christmas jingle. You're right, you know what. On that note, let's talk about his directorial debut, then his two thousand and five underrated Christmas crime comedy Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. Hello, everybody.

1:25 I'm Jeff Johnson and I'm Andrew Blakeley, and this is a film by podcast Andrew. We were talking about Shane Black. It was a couple of months ago, wasn't it. Yeah, I don't, I don't know. Brought him up a couple of times recently. We brought him out, Yeah, recently, we've we've talked about him a few times and we just like, you know what, we've got to cover something at Christmas time that that that Shane Black is involved in. And what better than his directorial film debut, Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. It's a personal favorite of mine. I'm I love talking about I'm glad I got to rewatch for this. I forgot how much I love this movie. This is one of those situations where you've got an incredible writer, an incredible director, an incredible cast. Everything's lining up except for the box office. This movie kind of came and went quietly. I for one, didn't see it in two thousand and five. I was not at the theater for this one. This was actually recommended to me several years ago by Brad Kozo, who said, I can't believe you haven't seen Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bang when we were talking about non traditional Christmas movies.

2:32 Yeah, it's top of the list for me. I didn't see it in theaters either. Unfortunately, I do regret that, but I think, you know, that was early in my film loving career. I didn't have the appreciation for Shane Black that I developed later on, so I you know, it was just another buddy cop movie is kind of how it was advertised, and that's that under sells what it really is. I have to believe that there's there's listeners out there that probably don't know what this one's about. You want to you want to rip off a little synopsis for. Him, absolutely two bit c book. Harry Lockhart stumbles into an audition for a mystery film while on the run from the cops. Getting the attention of producers, He's flown out to Hollywood to study under hard boiled and impressively sarcastic private eye Perry van Schreke aka Gay Perry. The pair are flung into a tangled murderous conspiracy alongside Harry's childhood sweetheart, Harmony faith Lane in this quick, deadpan and affectionate parody of film noir tropes.

3:24 Originally titled L A p I, which does get name dropped in the film, I was Love when that happens. That then becomes You'll Never Die in This Town Again, which again they kind of that's like, that's one of the Gossamer novels that you see Michelle Monahan's character holding on to. But it's Val Kilmer that allegedly suggested to Shane Black that kiss, Kiss, Bang bang had more appeal. What your thoughts quickly, I'm gonna throw you're you're you're the producer on this. I'm gonna give you those three titles, which one jumps out of you. I'll say, kis kiss, bang, bang does have the most pop to it. The first ones are kind of boring. They fall a little flat. But you know, even as much of a film lover as I am, I didn't recognize the reference. I had to. I had to look it up myself.

4:11 Yeah, this, this phrase, which was used as the name of a club in the James Bond story Thunderball, became a slang term overseas. You want to you want to explain this to the listeners, Andrew. So it became I believe it originated in Italy. It became a slang term for the James Bond genre. You know, mister, kiss, kiss, bang, bang, it's all sex and violence, and that's really all it is. And I think it was said a little bit derogatorily initially, but it was embraced because, let's be honest, that's what James Bond is, That's that's what these film noir tropes are. And I think it became sort of more of a loving and endearing slang. Yeah, spy spy films that feature romantic entanglements. You could not get a better title. I love the title this, Yeah, absolutely, And you gotta love the cast that we've got here.

4:59 Our leads have both famously played billionaires turned crime fighters. This movie features iron Man and Batman. Can we talk about that for a minute. Yeah, I mean that these two are so good, and I think it's especially a great turn for Val Kilmer. You know, this is sort of Val Kilmer had already had a name for himself. Everybody knew how great he was. Whereas for Downey, this is you know, this is pre iron Man. This is you know, he's sort of making his comeback from his his rough days, his younger days. And it's a shame that this didn't get bigger because this really shows the immense talent that this guy had. And we already knew, I mean, he'd been in Chaplain, you know, we knew that he could act, but this really showed how charming and quick and funny he could be.

5:42 Yeah. RDIJ has stated this is his favorite RDJ movie, and to your point, he wins the role from Johnny Knoxville. This is a time when he's trying to mount us comeback in Hollywood. Luckily, his girlfriend at the time Susan Downey, who's now his wife, she urges him to pitch for the role, and after all, he's had access to producer Joel Silver because at the time he's working on Gothica. I love that he took this, and actually there's something he said about it that really stood out to me, because you know, as we've mentioned, this is, you know, really quick witted, and it's sort of a parody but also a very loving film noir movie. But it also hits on some really heavy notes. And so I found a quote from RDJ that I loved. He said, I think Kiss, Kiss, Bang Bang really got that thing where if a movie reads really funny and then has some dramatic or violent, sinister stuff in it, you can't forget that.

6:35 Primarily it has to be even funnier than you read it, Otherwise that other stuff doesn't work. And that's what I love about this movie, even over other Shane Black scripts. I think the humor and the heavy, heavy stuff work together perfectly. How much of the Tony Stark DNA do you see in his performance here. It's funny you mentioned that all of the charm, all of the quick wit is there. Man, Harry is an idiot. Well, okay, he's an idiot. Yeah, but but the charm, the charm is there one hundred percent. Yeah, the confidence is there, one hundred percent. And if you don't see it, you got to keep in mind that while John Favreau is prepping iron Man to kick off the MCU, he makes the decision to cast Robert Downey Jr. Based off of this performance. So without kiss, kiss, Bang bang, there is no Robert Downey Junr. As Tony Stark.

7:28 And imagine what the MCU looks like. And you know, in an alternate timeline like the like they love to do right now, it just doesn't feel right, you know. Oh absolutely, yeah. I mean that's a whole other conversation. But yeah, the MCU doesn't happen without that iconic turn that that Robert Denney Junr. Took. And I think you're right, you really see it in this this character that isn't really a good person if you boil it down, but is trying to do the right thing, is trying to make good decisions while still kind of being a dirt bag, and I think that that that DNA really translates into Tony Stark. He's he's a respectable dirt bag in the sense that I don't like what he's doing, but I love how he defends Michelle Monahan's character. I love how he's actually I love how he defends women in general in this.

8:22 It's it's a great introduction to the character and I think there's you know, well, I guess it starts with an introduction of him as the narrator, which is hilarious, genuinely some of my favorite narration dialogue in any movie, and you know, very self referential and self aware of itself as a movie. But when they really show him first at the party and he's all cool and he's calling the guy out that's about to take advantage of Michelle Monahan and you think, wow, this guy's a badass, and just smash to him getting his ass beat outside. Yeah, it's it's hilarious and it says so much about his character, and it really introduces you to and to Shane Black because you know, you see this again in like The Good Guys and in some of his other scripts, like he loves this type of character that is both great and terrible at the same time.

9:07 Yeah, jumping into scenes, you know, we're introduced to him. He's he's actually stealing like the hottest toy, like they can't find hottest toy. At the beginning of this, he's talking to his nephew on the phone, trying to get the nephew. Wait, is this store actually open? Yeah, it's it's it's Christmas hours. It's we're fine, We're fine, you know. So he's he's a dirt bag, but he's he's still you know, he's he's still at a Christmas present, but it's for his nephew, so I can kind of I can kind of look the other way a little bit. And then we're at this uh, this party in the Hollywood Hills and Michelle Monahan, you know, she's she's passed out. This creep comes in starts, you know, sliding his hand up her upper dress and and he's there, you know, as the hero. He's talking tough and you're like, all right, way to look out for her, and then he's getting pummeled.

9:53 You know, it's not what you expect, and that it's one of those things that right when you think we're gonna get some kind of a cool action sequence, we get we get a we get a comedic moment because this is typically not what you see the hero do is take an ass whipping right. That's one of the things that makes Shane Black's writing and directing I think so brilliant is he knows how to play on tropes and he knows where you think it's gonna go, and he does something different and he always keeps it interesting. And that Robert Downey Junior is just so smart and how he plays it. He knows exactly where the humor is, he knows exactly where the coolness is, and he dials it in every time. I love that he also has a little callback to this moment because after this we're introduced to Val Kilmer's character, and we'll talk about him in a minute. But then they're leaving the party and one of my all time crushes is is here for a reunion with Robert Downey Junior.

10:49 None other than Judy Aronson is the one giving the the swag bags out and she kind of, you know, she's the one. She's like, oh, yeah, I do that guy, you know, the one that beats your ass earlier. Yeah, he left that girl, so we get a little weird science reunion. And I love that. When when when Hollywood does this, when it gives us this, this rare opportunity to put two people back together, you know, all of a sudden, we got we got weird science happening. Especially in a movie like this where it's very self aware. It references itself as a movie kind of winks at the camera a little bit here and there, but never over the top. So little moments like that, you know, are very intentional and played up, and I think they landed perfectly.

11:29 Let's talk about Val Kilmer. So Warner Brothers initially offers Joel Silver, you know, the producer. They offer a larger budget as long as he's willing to get Harrison Ford to play gay Perry. Harrison Ford says, no, doesn't work with Ford anyways, right. I it's a very different movie. I have recently come to respect Harrison Ford's comedic chops. When he wants to be dry and funny, he's he can be pretty funny. Having said that, Ice as perfect in this role. We can't. Yeah, this is he makes it. Do you remember a film that that Ford did with Josh Hartnett called Hollywood homicide.

12:10 Unfortunately. Yeah, yeah, we see keyword. Unfortunately. I feel like if Ford was said, sure, I'll do it, you know, we we would have had something more kinto that. We wouldn't have had a shame black classic on our hands. So glad that Val Kilmer's here. After Ford says no, he has to still beat out the likes of you Grant and Benicio del Toro, and again, Val Kilmer is the way to go here, Andrew. He quickly drops fifty pounds to play this role because you remember, just less than a year ago he's playing a very heavy set character in two thousand and four as Alexander. Yeah. Wow, Yeah, I didn't realize how quickly that happened. That was like, a that's some Christian Bay level stuff.

12:51 That's Batman. Apparently, if you're doing Batman, apparently this is in your repertoire, right. Yeah, but I dig the fact, like you could tell that he's carrying a little extra weight and not in a bad way, like he's he's a little bit bigger than Ice Man here. Yeah, he pulls it off though. I mean, Val Kilmer is just yeah, he's a legend. Yeah, he is. His anger is something that you know, he's always played very cool characters. I love how much he just unleashes on Harry in this and he has some of my absolute all time favorite insults. You know, the look up idiot in the dictionary, and you know what you find is I think about that insult twice a week. He has this movie.

13:31 He might have some of the best dialogue in the film. He might. You know, it's a It's amazing. And to be paired with Robert Downey Junior and to have the best dialogue is no small feat. You are absolutely right, man. I'll tell you one thing. I read about this and I'm scratching my head. So they have that they have this awkward kissing scene, and Kilmer once claimed that he was thinking of Kevin Bacon during the moment. I don't know what that's about, but I saw it. I was like, well, we're gonna bring it up, you. Know, I mean, okay, I guess sure. Well what's cool here? Shane Black creates a character that's openly gay, and you hadn't seen that in an action film before.

14:16 Right, Yeah, especially because he's the badass, he's the capable one, he's. The capable badass. Yeah, and going back to, you know, the idea that these aren't good people. I think some of the dialogue doesn't hold up great. You know, this movie's almost twenty years old. Some of the little cringy. But I think it also falls into that category of these are bad people, you know what I mean. They're they're criminals, they're they're kind of dirt bags. So like the dialogue in their mouth is a little bit more yeah, okay, you're a piece of crap. I get it. But at the same time, they never really you know, ostracize him or or treat him badly because of his sexuality. So I think it toes that line in a way that we probably mad now.

14:57 But this is only two thousands. We're right at that point where as as a society we are acknowledging that there's certain derogatory slaying that just that it's not going to be acceptable, right. It does lead us to genuinely one of my favorite lines ever, when they're just they're very catty the whole way and he just goes, don't quit your gay job. I don't know why. I love that. It makes me giggle every time. That is a good one. And that's you know that that one's not bad. I don't think that's that's a bad one. Yeah, no, no, no, Yeah, let's talk about how adorable Michelle Monahan is. She's playing Harmony faith Lane. Yeah, she's she's fantastic. I kind of wish she had gotten more work. I feel like, you know, she had a really good run there in the early two thousands and then dropped off a little bit.

15:42 Well, okay, so she she's coming off of She's come off a few small roles. She she had a small role in The Born Supremacy in two thousand and four, and then she's in Constantine the kick Ass Keanu Reeve. Yeah, which I'll defend. I don't care what anyone says. Movies awesome, we'll cover it next year. How about that sounds good? Yeah, she has she has a small role in that that that comes out in two thousand and five, right before this movie. And it's after this movie that she gets Mission Impossible three. She gets Gone, Baby Gone, and she's she's off and running. She's she's a name. So yeah, you're right there. She should. I feel like she should have a much larger career.

16:23 And she's amazing. Yeah, she's she's very talented, she's she's she's hilarious in this. I think, oh yeahs. To hold your own. But she's she's a lot younger than these other two. So to hold your own. You know, these great names and this really quick witted dialogue, you've really got a nail, and and to be lovable while you're doing it, and to also be kind of terrible in her own way. You know, none of these characters are really great. Well that's that's the that's the epitome of Shane Black. Though when he's writing, he he gives us i'll say, gray characters, morally challenged characters that.

17:05 You end up quote broken, broken, broken characters. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I'll follow him though I love him in this absolutely. It creates a great redemption. And I think that, you know, obviously we mentioned earlier Shane Black loves his Christmas movies. You this Lethal Weapon, the Long Kiss, good Night, Iron Man three. I mean, the list goes on, and I think part of that always leads to this, you know, redemption of these characters. These characters are seeking, you know, a second chance, are seeking, you know, a turnaround, and Christmas is just such a great backdrop for that, even if it's not necessarily integral to the story. Yeah, I do want to talk about Christmas here in a minute, but before we get off the cast one more we got to mentioned Corbyn Burnson, who's playing the the quote unquote villain of the movie, Harland Dexter. I kind of feel like he's he's barely in this movie.

17:56 Not I I've been saying that for years, though. I mean, I this dude rules. He's great. I love him in major league. If you ever watched the Show's psych he plays the main character, Shan's father and that, and he's fantastic. He's always good at just being kind of a kind of an asshole, but in a very charming way. He's he's got a talent for it. He absolutely does. And uh, I think he's doing good job here. I just I just wish there's more of him. That's all I love too. That the plot falls around the fact that he was an actor and they use you know who had shot a movie playing a spy or a detective, you know, years prior, and they have old footage of super young carbon Britson, Like, I, I don't know what it's from.

18:37 I would love to find it, but it's it's hilarious to just see him so young. I was wondering that myself. I couldn't really find it. I did a little digging online to see what it was. But I'm assuming it's maybe it was it what have been maybe from La Law down the hallway. I don't know. It's it's Prime. It's a few seconds, you know, Yeah, it's. It's Prime Burns and it could have been La Law. Who knows. But Andrew, I want to take I want to take a break, and then when we come back, I do want to talk a little bit about the film's background, and we're definitely gonna talk about Christmas Welcome Back. We are discussing Shane Black's directorial debut, Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. So.

19:19 This one's influenced by crime fiction novelist Raymond Chandler's work, who often featured the hard boiled private detective Philip Marlow character. It's also loosely based on Bodies Are Where You Find Them, which was the fifth novel and author Brett Halliday's Mike Shane detective series from the forties. I love I love the uh, I love the genesis of this project because you got to think Black at this point had he was in years prior, he was like the biggest name in Hollywood. He was the he like when you said screenwriter, you say Shane Black. He commanded the most. And then he kind of disappears and he decides, Hey, I don't want to do an action movie. I want to do something a little more dramatic. And he he's trying to work through it. He's trying to cut like this romantic comedy off the ground, and then James Brooks of all people, tells him, look, you're going about this the wrong way.

20:20 You know, your hero should be more like Jack Nicholson, and as good as it gets, uh, you know, give it, give it, go, do what you do best. And then he got and then all of a sudden he's like, well, if I had I've had a couple of murders on my hands, you know, if it's gonna be like if it's gonna be like Jack Nicholson Chinatown, Like, yeah, let's let's do that. And then all before you know it, we're there's some action sequences and he's back doing what he does best, and we get kiss kiss, bang banged. Yeah it's funny too that you know, you think of this movie because there's a lot of gunshots, there's people die, all this stuff, there's murders, but there's really very little action. There's the climax, you know, with a little bit of a shootout, but even then, not a lot is happening. It is much more now air like, you know, trying to solve things through detectives and you know, trying to figure things out. So I can see how he's saying, I don't want to do leuth a weapon again. You know, I've done that, I've been there. I want to find something that's you know, a little more introspective, a little more emotional. Things like that. But also I'm Shane Black.

21:15 Some would be funny as hell while I do it. And that's how you get here. Let's talk about Christmas. Hell, Yeah, it is the season, after all. The question you got to ask yourself is what's Shane Black's deal with Christmas? And I finally found the answer. Andrew, I'm going to read you something here. This comes from an article written by Chris Hewitt for Empire, and I'll read you this yere real quick because I was just fascinated by this. Really, it's all three days of the Condor's Fault. That's the film that convinced a young, impressionable Shane Black that Christmas could be a suitably dramatic, sometimes ironic, sometimes sincere, and heartfelt backdrop for a thriller.

22:01 In it, Christmas played a huge part. It was set against the backdrop of people shopping, Christmas carols are blaring, there's snow, says Black, talking exclusively to Empire, and even the pause at the end where Redford walks outside with the hitman and the guy says, can I give you a ride? This is a guy who was about to kill him or someone else, and it really felt appropriate to me that Christmas was the backdrop for that. It struck a spark to take a holiday and make it not just a backdrop but a character itself. So there you go. Yeah, And it works really, really well a lot of the time. And I think part of the reason it works so well for this as well as the greatest Christmas movie of all time, Die Hard, Thank You, is that it's there. It's always present. You hear it in the music, in the sound effects, you see Christmas trees, things like that, but it's not always integral to the story.

22:54 It's a backdrop. It kind of colors everything. But you could set this exact same movie in the summer, and while the costumes might change and think that the party might be a different setting, it it's still the same plot. All Christmas really does is kind of give it that feeling of hope, that disparity between what you're seeing and what you're feeling. Yeah, this this is based in la but we still get Christmas lights, we still have the Christmas parties. We have Michelle in that incredible uh Santa Claus costume. Giving my favorite take on Rudolph. Ever, I've never watched Rudolph the same again, ever since she she went the whole racism route.

23:34 Her her racism conversation about Rudolph the Red Is Reindeer. It's cracking me up, especially because we just talked about Rudolph the Red da Is Reindeer on our Patreon. Wow. She she's got it. She's got it together. Though you got you gotta give it to her. Let's talk a little bit a couple of scenes. We we've already jumped into one or two scenes before we before we hit the pivotal moment. Can we can we talk about a couple of scenes This. Movie is wall to wall iconic scenes, most of them I think, boiled down to the interactions of the characters. The thing that really gets me is when this decides to stop being funny and start being like really serious for a moment and then bouncing back. So I'm thinking of Robert Donna Junior's character Harry waking up under in the back of a car that had been stolen. He's wandering around a house having lost a finger, very much dazed, and ends up witnessing a murder the people that were trying to kill him no less. And so he comes up from this very day situation, he shoots one of the bad guys, and then when he calls Perry, he's genuinely devastated, Like you can really see the horror and of processing that up to this point everything's been tongue in cheek and funny and quick witted, and you see this and he's really messed up about what happened. But then it jumps right into the silliness of he lost his finger and he's tried to get it back from the dog because his fingerprints are now at the scene, and the balance there of the drama and the humor is so perfect.

25:00 I love that scene. I'll tell you another one that I love, and I'll just say I'll just quote it and you'll know what I'm talking about. Val Kilmer, who taught you math. It when they when when Downy has another tough guy moment and he does the whole Russian Roulette thing with the henchman, he absolutely blows the guy's head off, and he said, what did you do? It's like an eight percent year who taught you math? Like, it's so jarring too. There's this, you know, this great scene. There is a lot of banter and then all of a sudden, like all of a sudden, just bam, the guy's dead. And it's you know, even you as the audience, you're just like, wait, what the fund just happened? Did he just wait, did he just shoot him in the head? Yeah, you know. It's it's almost like a callback to pulp fiction when when Tibalta shoots Marv shot Marvin in.

25:46 The face exactly and very much is like that. It cracks me up that a moment where someone accidentally shoots someone in the head can be played to such comedic effect like this. It's it's one of the funnier moments in the movie, and it's and again the whole time, Like my first time watching this a couple of years ago, and even now watching it, I'm like, why didn't we get a franchise out of this? Why? Why aren't we seeing Why didn't we get to see more Robert Downey Junior and Valu Kilmer this and Michelle Monahan. This would have been amazing sort of it a fun series, right. Yeah, But I mean, Shane Black, that's not his style. You know, he's he's it's not it's the same. I feel the same way after watching the Good Guys, you know, like what we could do more of this? This would be a great you know, jumping off point, but no, it's it's not what he wants to do.

26:30 I'll tell another scene. I just want to point this out, not for the scene being incredible, even though they're all incredible, but when he shows up at the Hedonism party, the Hedonism Christmas party where she's working, and she's got this little sating outfit on. Did you catch that? As he's walking in to the left, there is like a six foot statue of the demon Pozuzu from the Exorcist and it's got like a red Christmas light, like beamon at it. Huh, I did not notice that. Now I'm gonna have to go back and watch it again. Darn. It's yeah, I'm telling you. I mean, if you're not a horror fan, you know you're not, you're not a big fan of the Exorcist, maybe you miss it. But if you're a big fan of the Exorcist and you you love horror films, it's it like smacks you right in the face and I'm like, what, why, what is it do? What is it doing there? And I got my only here's my theory. Okay, I don't know. I you know, I could be wrong, but my thought is maybe it's an Easter egg because you got to remember the Exorcist came out during Christmas time. It was released on Christmas Day when it came out, so and era or maybe maybe it's one of Shane Black's favorite movies.

27:37 I don't know, but it is clear as day the statue you see in The Exorcist is right there in the living room of that party. It's weird. I'm sure it's this is you know that the movie does take place in la There's so much film reference in it. I guarantee there's you know, Shane Black's like Shane Black seems like the kind of person that would be like, I love the Exorcists. We're just gonna do that because I want to. All right, let's talk pivotal moment. I got one, but I want to hear yours. It's really hard, you know. I was thinking about that in my last rewatch, like what's the moment that things kick off? And this movie is you know, every scene's pivotal. That's one of the movies you really got to watch.

28:18 But for me, it is I'll just give you a line. Why in plu perfect hell would you pee on a corpse? It's it's so it's the moment that the movie really turns because up to this point they had witnessed a murder, you know, as a PI, and they need to go to police and everything. But now's the moment that okay, they know who he is, he's being framed, the body is in his hotel room, and in perfect comedicy fashion, he ends up accidentally pissing on the corpse and everything goes after that point. It's just a mile a minute. Again, if you were describing that to someone that's never seen this movie and you start laughing. They're they're probably thinking, what what's wrong with you? But that scene is hilarious.

29:06 It does it it It kind of changes the course of the film. We're we're off, We're we're off and running right. Uh, I'm gonna give you one. And this is a moment where I feel like, as you said, Robert and Junior, you know, his character, Harry is a bit of a bit of a dirt bag, bit of a Goofis he's not that bright? Yeah? I love the moment he realizes he's in he's in the taxi and he realizes that his case, which he should you know, Uh, Gay continues to remind him, like you you don't have a case. You're not you're not a detective. I love the moment when he realizes that his case about Michelle Monaghan's little sister and Gay Perry's case are the same case John on the John Gossip like the John Gossiper books. And he is so pleased with himself for figuring that out. And then you're like, oh wait, yeah, the book thing's been there the whole time about you know, even as the narrator he's explaining like, oh, yeah, it was great because he'd be on two cases and then he'd find out they're connected. And the fact that they you know, he's putting that there in front of us the whole time, and you know, at least for me the first time I'm watching, I didn't en pay attention.

30:09 I didn't see it. I love that. For Robert Donna Junior though, the look of glee on his face that he he figured something out that the others didn't. I love that for him, Absolutely love it. Yeah. I mean, he's not a moron for once, and he's so proud of himself. It is. It's great, and it really is. It makes the final scene, the payoff, really interesting, or one of the final scenes, you know, as he said, you know I saw a Lord of the Rings. We're not gonna have seventeen endings, but you know, it closes with oh, everything's wrapped up in a nice, neat little package, and then Perry comes in and you know, says, no, that's that's not really what happened and kind of hits you with this. This smacks you in the face with reality and it's awful and you find out, you know, these cases were sort of connected. But not really in the way we thought. And the reality is pretty dark, and I think that all that joy kind of gets sucked out of your lungs for a second. You're like, oh shit, but that really lands because of how everything's been built up and how it's Oh, it's just like the novel. No, this is still the real world. Man. Yeah.

31:13 Let's uh, let's take one last break and then when we return, we'll talk talk a little bit of trivia about Shane Black, and we'll wrap it up. Welcome back, Andrew. You know how this goes. Three it's a trivia about our director, and then we'll quote him. So, Shane Black, I'm we'll put you on the spot here four four of his screenplays begin with the letter L. Can you name them all? Long? Kiss? Good night? Yes, last boy scout. That's two you said four? Right, Okay, let the weapon. Leave the weapon. That's a that's a gimme. What's that last one? I'll give you a hint. We have covered it.

31:57 I'll give you a hint. We have covered it on a film by podcast. Oh now, now it's really gonna hurt when I don't get it. Oh No, I'll give you another. I'll give you another hint, I'll give you another hand. Our buddies Jason and Dee covered it on the Surely You Can't Be Serious podcast. I'm gonna kick myself. Now we're looking, we're looking for last Action Hero. Oh, I'm embarrassed. I'm embarrassed. And you know there would have been five, but he walked off the set of Lethal Weapon two over a disagreement about what was gonna happen to Riggs, because he famously wanted Riggs to die at the end. Warner Brothers, seeing potential franchise, said absolutely not, so he left. They rewrote the script.

32:44 Yeah, and again, that's one of the things I love about Shane Black is for all his you know, silliness, for all his humor, he's he's an artist. He's gonna do what he's gonna do, and he's gonna stand by it. And I respect that. Do you agree, Like, let's let's go back, let's go back in time. If Warner Brothers had said, hey, Shane, you go, you know what you're right? Do you think that was the right move? Would would it have been the right move to end it with lead the Weapon two? Or are we happy that we live in the Warner Brothers World where we get lead the Weapon three and four and potentially five because we you know Mel Gibson's working on the script for it right now. Yeah, I mean, hey, look I love Leath Wepon three and four. Uh, I could see Riggs dying at Leeth Weapon three. Keeping it as a trilogy two might be a bit early.

33:26 Okay, you know, well he moving on. If that's what the writer wants, that's what the creator wants, you know what, let's let's try it. You gotta wonder what he had to say to Warner Brothers at that time, because fact number two, he is a self admitted sufferer of Tourette syndrome. Interesting, all the interviews I've seen him do. I mean, you gotta remember he's he's a he's an accomplished actor himself. I never would have thought. I never would have thought that. Yeah, I actually have a couple of friends at Turette's and you know, some obviously it deals better than others, but especially it's such a high stress job, like you'd imagine, it comes out a lot more, you know, trying to hide it, trying to manage all this, trying to write all this dialogue, like, that's that's a lot. So I mean, good on him for managing it the way he does.

34:16 Yeah. Well, we talked about how he was kind of the king of the screenplay back in the late eighties and throughout the nineties. In nineteen ninety he held the record for the highest paid screenplay for The Last Boy Scout at one point seventy five million dollars, and he held that record all the way up to nineteen ninety six, when it was beaten by the screenplay for The Long Kiss good Night, which he also wrote and was paid four million dollars for. That's crazy, that's not it. I mean I liked The Long Kiss good Night. We've talked about it. It's not we love it. We covered it. Me and Ambert talked about that when last Christmas. Yeah, and I just love that movie.

34:57 But I mean, come on, for million, I'm I'm just now connecting the dots too. We do a Shane Black Christmas movie last year, me and Amber with Lung kis k Night. You and I are doing one this year. And I am loving that because that's unintentional. I did' even think of that. I didn't even think about that until just now. It's Shane Black and Christmas. What are you gonna do? You gotta what you gotta, Well, let's talk. I'll give you. Let me give you a quote from Shane Black, and fittingly, it's it's for kiss, Kiss, Bang Bang. Shane said quote. I really wanted to set it at Christmas at the time. I wasn't even thinking about it. It seemed natural because I hadn't done a film at the time for quite some years. And there was no hesitation because I went with Joel Silver and we had already done a Christmas movie together with Lethal Weapon. Even Last Action Hero was a Christmas movie, so it was why not? And Christmas helped a lot the idea of this lonely guy in a brand new city at Christmas wandering. It's a bizarre, ironic take on Christmas in la It's it's not Christmasy at all, except there are miracles defined if you look closely enough for them. Harry Even says, last Christmas we kind of changed the world, meaning we actually did something at Christmas that A mattered and B was impossible. It was one of my favorite things to work on.

36:18 I get that. And it's you mentioned earlier as rdj's one of his favorite projects that he's worked on, and I get it. I think this is the kind of thing I've said it about a few films, like, if I were to make a movie, this would be the kind I would hope I could make. Smart. It's emotional, it's funny, it's cool, it's all the things you want. So lately we've been asking the question, if someone watched this movie but we're unfamiliar with the director, what other three films would you suggest a watch. To be fair, there's only three others. So let's just let's just go down the line here, Andrew with these three. Twenty thirteen, iron Man. Three, Another Christmas classic.

36:58 Another Christmas classic. Now you gotta remember Robert Downie Junior is kind of on the ropes. He's trying to mount a comeback, and this movie kind of kind of gives him a good foothold in Hollywood. Kiss Kiss, Bang Bang. So as a thank you to Shane Black for making him an a list star again, he gets him involved with Marvel and as a result, we get Ironman three, written and directed by Shane Black. Andrew, obviously it's better than Iron Man two. Can we go ahead and say that? Yeah? Oh okay, Okay, would you say it's better than ironmn. No, But there are really good things about it. This is one of the situations, and this happens a lot, unfortunately.

37:43 You know with big studio movies, and especially anything Marvel or Disney owned. You can see a lot of the issues that it has were kind of shoehorned in by the studio. And you know me, I I love Marvevel. I've gotten two different shields right in front of my face right now from Captain America, so you know, I'm not crapping on them. But like you can see, they kind of wanted to do this this way. They wanted to push that that way. And you know, famously they wanted to have a male villain because they thought it would sell better toys. And I think that's a situation where not letting Shane Black do his thing hurt the film. I'll tell you another thing. I love Iron Man three, with exception to the Pepper Potts in the in the suit and listen, we you and I have talked thousands of hours about Marvel movies. You know my feeling towards Pepper Potts and Gwyneth Paltrow as a whole. I'm fine with her in the case we need her in those in the Iron Man films, but we don't need.

38:41 Her just doing a superhero. She's not a superhero. Come on, let's just moving on. Twenty sixteen. If there was, if there was ever a movie that would satisfy your kiss kiss bang bang itch, it's The Nice Guys. Yeah it is. It is a spiritual sequel to this movie. Uh, it's you know you got your you're down on your luck idiot p I. I mean, I guess they're both pis in this one, but you know, lovable, not great people. One's a badass, one's kind of silly. It's it's very much of the same DNA and I I love it, I really do.

39:22 Again. It's it's that neo noir, hard boiled detective type of film. It's hilarious, but it also has those moments where we're gonna get really serious for a moment m hm. And it's taken place in like the late seventies. I want to I want to live in a world where these two movies are in the same universe. Like I want to believe that that The Nice you know, I want to believe that the characters and the nice guys could could could bump into Val Kilmer and Robert Ian Junior in a coffee shop. That to me, that'd be amazing. Yeah, I mean it's his dialogue is brilliant, and you see some of the DNA from his previous movies as well, Like uh, Ryan Gosling's character's daughter very much reminds me of Bruce Willis his daughter in Last Boy Scout.

40:05 It's the same role almost, yeah. But given a little more time, it sort of feels like he learned his lesson he saw worked and didn't work, and when I can do that a little bit better this time. And I love that, and I think that it shows, you know, kind of the opposite of what I was saying with Iron Man three. This is a guy that he understands his script. He understands how to make it. Well, just step back and let him do it. Step back and let him do it, may or may not be the right answer. In twenty eighteen, yeah, he tried. So he relaunches the Predator franchise. Now, yeah, here's the thing, man, we I don't know what your feelings are about the Predator films. I think we've got some incredible films I think we've got some I want to forget they happened moments.

40:52 What's your take on his Predator. As far as I'm concerned that there's basically three Predator films and this isn't one. Of Oh that's saying something because I mean he stars in the original with Arnold I know. I was so excited when they said Shane Black was making a Predator movie. I was unbelievably pumped. I was like, this is the guy it gets. And they brought him into the original Predator as an actor with the hope that he would help beef up the script. So like, even in that very first one, the goal was to get Shane Black to put pen to paper. When it comes to Predator, I just it does not work. It feels like a sci fi channel like low budget movie with better special effects. And I love Shane Black, so it hurts to say, but it's true.

41:38 I couldn't say that better. But seeing as how the holidays are they go hand in hand with fighting with family, I don't we might be about the fight Because you said, you said there's three good Predator films and this isn't one of them. What are your three? Well, I mean obviously Predator the first one. Obviously the first one. I count Predator to the same way I count Die Hard to. It's not as good, but I still love it. Okay, it's still good. It's still as part of the cannon. And then uh, Pray that just came out the Hulu one. I love that movie. All right, we're drinking cocoa together, because that's the three I had. I just I just wanted to make sure is he about to say Predators with Adrian Brody, because I'm gonna get I'm gonna get upset in a hurry.

42:23 You know. That was the Fall and it was worth a watch. But nah, no, I like to forget that one happened to. Yeah, Pray definitely was was incredible and I look forward to the next one that Trachenberg's doing. Yeah. So going back to Shane Black. Here, the part of the reason I think Predator the Predator, excuse me it hurts so much, is it's such a rich canvas to paint with you like you could do so much with Predators. I was recently rewatching Buffy the Vampire Slayer, and at one point I had a thought, what would it be like? What if a Predator was hunting a slayer, that'd be kick ass. And you could just do that like nobody stopped. That'd be kind of awesome. Yeah, or you know you they could be hunting a samurai, or they could there's a thousand things that could. I remember I had a scoofing off with some friends talking about a specscript where they were hunting soldiers in World War Two and the you know, the acxis and ally soldiers had to kind of work together to try to survive.

43:17 I was like, I would watch the hell out of that movie. Oh god, yeah, got the Predator. You know, well, Pray is putting us on a on a on an interesting course like Predator through the through the the generations. Because I would love to see the Predator taking on like some Union soldiers during the Civil War or you know, like to your like you said, the samurai. I mean, come on, that would be an It'd be an incredible moment for the for the movies. That's that's why the Predator hurts. It was it was such a missed opportunity. It was I know, kiss kiss Bang Bang is not a missed opportunity. Uh, Andrew your final thoughts on this incredible Christmas classic.

44:01 It's genuinely one of my favorites. This is one of those movies I quote so often I kind of forget that I'm quoting it. Sometimes it's smart, it's funny. It's one of those movies you kind of like really have to sit and watch because you're only half bang attention. You're going to miss a lot. It's it's a must watch for anybody. For me, I will say it ends on one of the best lines for that though, which is to all the nice people in the Midwest. Sorry we said fuck so much because it's not for everybody, But if that's your cup of tea, one hundred percent recommend fantastic. Yeah. This neo noir black comedy has Shane Black's slick dialogue, great comedic performances by Robert Downey Junior, Val Kilmer, Michelle Monaghan and Lo and Behold. It is a Christmas movie.

44:43 So if you're a fan of Shane Black's work and you haven't seen it, what are you waiting for? It's not streaming free, but for a couple bucks you can rent it on most platforms like Prime, Apple Plus, Google YouTube. We want to know what you think of Kiss kiss, Bang Bang have you seen do you consider it a Christmas movie? You can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and x. You can check out a Film by Podcast dot com for all of our film and TV articles and our entire library streaming free. You can write to us at a film by Podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your responses on the show and send you some A film by Swag and Andrew speaking about that you will find in the show notes.

45:28 We got a link. We got a fun little survey that we have posted on our social media channels. We just want to hear what you guys think. You know, give us some feedback because Andrew, as I told you and the others, we're getting quite a lot of responses, positive feedback, I'm happy to say. But some of these listeners have given us some really great ideas for stuff they want to see, and I'll be happy to share that with all of you. How much they want to hear the smooth sounds of my voice is that recurring message? I think? Well to that point, you're you're you're you're busy this month? Uh? You are you are the hardest working Elf and Santa's Workshop because uh, we're we got we got more for you on our Patreon, and I think you're coming back at the end of the year with uh, we'll we'll go ahead and we'll go and tease it. We get a little, a little something for the H the listeners right.

46:23 A little doing your surprise. Yeah, looking forward to sharing that with you guys, but I don't want to give it all away yet. Look forward to that one. And Uh to all of you out there listening to the show, following us on social media, subscribing to our Patreon, we thank you and say enjoy all that holiday shopping. H