Tim Burton - Big Fish

0:00 Today at eleven thirty am on Hollywood Boulevard in front of the Hollywood Toys and Costumes Store. Something awesome is about to happen. I'm intrigued. Well, I thought you would be, because the two thousand, seven hundred and eighty eighth star on the Walk of Fame is going to be given to Tim Burton. Oh so awesome. How awesome is that? Right? I mean, I can't believe it's taken this long for this guy to get a star on the Walk of Fame. Right, Like I kind of felt like that's what you were gonna say, But I was like, surely has one already?

0:42 He does not, and how great? Maybe they were just waiting for one to open up, but in front of Hollywood Toys and Costumes, because like, what better place for his star to be? Honest? Absolutely, absolutely, I'll tell you what. Let's talk about a film by Tim Burton. Let's do. Let's do his two thousand and three underrated fantasy classic Big Fish. Hello everybody, I'm Jeff Johnson, I'm Amber Lewis, and this is a film by podcast Amber. Let's start by saying hello to our two newest Patreon members. Welcome.

1:40 Steve mccola and welcome back, Matt, soitter. Gentlemen, we will be in touch soon because we've got some a film by swag for both of you listeners. For those of you that want access to our exclusive episodes and content, just like Steve and Matt, head to patreon dot com slash a film by podcast now to subscribe today. All you need is an email address to gain access to the free episodes, and Amber, you know this. We're doing, We're doing, We're doing. We're doing several episodes a month now on Patreon and we're always putting one or two of them as free episodes for our free free subscribers. Correct, yes, and I can't wait for him every week.

2:22 They're good, thank you, and uh you know listen, yeah, well listen. All you guys need is an email dress to gain access to these free episodes, and when you're ready for more, you can get access to everything for as little as three dollars a month. Amber, can we take a minute to discuss last week's episode? Oh my gosh, can we please? Because it was so much fun? I'm glad you were wrong, but okay, okay, hold on, hold on now, you I saw that you dropped some stuff on our Facebook page. You you had some choice words, you had you had some good picks. I got it. I have to be honest. You had some really good picks. Though. Well, Graves like took half my list. I had to like rebuild it because his list was like on the mark.

3:08 But there was a deplorable lack of female lawyers. You were a little concerned about the lack of female lawyers. Hold on, I'll put you on the spot. Who is the best female lawyer in cinema history? Oh? Good Grave, Come on, I could shoot for the hip. I can give you Atticus Fitch. I could you know, I can give you plenty of people. I mean, they haven't had a lot of opportunity. But I will say I absolutely love the movie Suspect, and I think that Cher does a very good job. She's a very believable lawyer in that movie. So I'm not about to disagree with you on that, right.

3:49 I mean, he can't talk bad about Share. No, I'll tell you, I don't think. I don't think anyone's gonna talk about about Share, including one of our other listeners. I want to I want to shout out a gentleman named Jason Coslet. So he reached out to us and he had this I I wanted to share some of the stuff he said. So he says, good morning, I'm listening to the latest episode on the five best courtroom films. I'm loving it. I'd maybe juxtapose a couple of them, but in general, I'm with you on all these films. They are all so damn great. Thank you. Keep up the good work. Now, I was curious. I had to I had to know, like, well, what what makes Jason Kslet's list of top five courtroom movies? Yeah, he was. He was good enough to share his list.

4:34 I'm gonna I'm gonna try and be quick, but uh, he's got He's got number one. If you good men, as stated by both of you, Nicholson's best performance one of Tom Cruise's best, to me Moore was fire in this. Wolfgang Bodison, for a first time actor, was so real I would have believed him as a real marine. Also no a while debut J T. Walsh as an unhinged Lieutenant Colonel Marketson. Kevin Pollack is Lieutenant Weinberg Well written by Aaron Sorkin, who wrote the play and absolute Fai of Mine. This guy like you know about this from a job. He knows his stuff. Right. Number two A Time to Kill. I can't honestly say anything more positive about this movie than you guys already did, other than to also point out that Sondra Bullock's performance was fantastic.

5:16 Now now he goes with one that it was hard for me to keep this one off my list. Amber dead Man Walking a powerful performance by Susan Sarandon, very possibly her most memorable, and Sean Penn's best since At Close Range. If you've never seen it, do yourself a favor and watch it. Jason, I have done myself that favor. We covered At Close Range on Patreon. It was one of our lost episodes of nineteen eighty six. It is out there for you, sir. Please check it out. Do yourself a favor, Jason and check out that episode. Let us know what you think of our coverage of At Close Range. Moving on Amber number four, Jason's Got Presumed Innocent, one of Harrison Ford's most underrated films and a damn good movie. I cannot agree.

6:00 All anybody wanted to talk about was his haircut, and they ignored the fact that it's a really good babe. Well, you know, Jason Costla says it's a damn good movie. So and then and then lastly making his list again. Another another tough one to keep off my list, but I believe the honorable d Graves had this one. Liar, Liar, and the Truth Shall Set You Free Jim Carrey's finest role. And Mitchell Ryan is hilarious in his role also, and of course Jennifer Tilley, well, I don't necessarily dig her as a blonde. I love her in general, and she's great in this as well. Thank you again, and thank you for all the great work. Jason. I love that list. Amber, I think he had a phenomenal list. You have to have to admit. Yeah. Absolutely, And Amber, I know, I know we're gonna get to big Fish at some point here.

6:47 But one more thing I want to share, and this is for Jason because I think it's gonna make him happy. So last year, we did an episode celebrating the fortieth anniversary of the first G I. Joe mini series called The Mass Device. I know that Jason loved it and I loved it. I love talking about because I'm a fan. But he wasn't alone because it ended up being one of our most popular episodes of all time. Therefore, next week we will be celebrating the fortieth anniversary of the second G I. Joe mini series titled The Revenge of Cobra. So everyone over the age of thirty five can get ready for a very nostalgic episode next week.

7:30 Yes, my brother will be thrilled. Okay, see, the Lewis family will be thrilled. Jason will be thrilled. I think a lot of people are gonna be thrilled. We've covered the Mass Device, We're about to cover the Revenge of Cobra. Who knows we might get to arise or pin or arise at some point. We'll see, all right, Amber, Enough about all that good stuff, great stuff, right, more great stuff. Let's talk about the the movie that that brought us here today. So Big Fish is the story of a frustrated son hoping to unearth the truth in the fantastic stories that embody the life of his dying father, a man known for telling tall tales. This movie deals with discovering fact within the fiction. Amber, here's a fact. I like this movie, but I don't love it.

8:25 But I do have reason to believe that you absolutely love it. Yes, it is Tim Burton's absolute best movie. This is wait, you're you're shooting right now, you're Tim Burton's best movie. We haven't even got to his filmography. I can't believe that that's You'll stand by that. Yep, all right, all right, we're gonna okay, we're gonna get to that. But you know, all right, what I love about it is the fantasy element. It feels like a it feels like a very heartfelt drama about reconciliation between a father and a son. But it's Tim Burton, so it's going to be absolutely fantastical. I mean you have to even even the beginning, like the birth of our of our lead character, Ed Bloom. Can we can we just jump into can we jump into this real quick and just talk about this delivery scene?

9:17 Well yeah, because I mean, although you want to talk about fantasy, that is actually almost one hundred percent how Liam Lewis came into the world. What, yes, Leem Lewis came flying on that like Superman and almost hit the floor. I can't believe that for one second. You're absolutely your son tries to shoot shoot out the door like that. I did not follow directions, and at one point I realized like, hey, wait a minute, I can push this baby out like I'm ready, And the doctor had turned around to put an instrument down on the table behind him.

10:01 And what you're supposed to do is like the baby's head comes out and then one shoulder, then the other shoulder, and then they ease him the rest of the way out. And I didn't do that. I gave one big push and the doctor turned around and caught Liam right before he hit the floor. That is astonishing. So he died when we saw this movie because I'm like, that's li ca. How how far if if the doc hadn't caught him, how far do you think young Liam would have made it? Like? Could he have gone as far down the hallway as as a bloom thinker? I mean, they're really slippery. I guess I wouldn't know. Good hands, doc, Uh yeah, yeah, thank you for taking care of young Liam here, all right?

10:52 Can we can we talk about this casting crew because there's a lot of people to talk about, But but you know, I don't know how much time we want to spend on everyone, right, because there's it's a big cast, it's a Timberton. Big cast, you get all these great Timburton regulars popping in, and then the main characters are great. Let's let's let's focus on the main characters for a minute. So we got Hugh McGregor playing the young ed Bloom. He's cast in this role because of a People magazine article that compared you into a young Albert Finney. So oh, look, he looks just like they could be brothers. They could write did you see the pictures? Because I did, and I was like, wow, I love you and McGregor in this. I mean, let's well, let's be honest, do we do we not love you and McGregor in anything?

11:40 I mean, full stop? Yeah? But I love in this that he he gets this great role of like the idealized version of how Edward Bloom sees himself, you know, how he wants to see himself, how he wants to have been. So he gets to do all these great things and be the hero, and you know, he's always the best guy. And I don't know, you know, I'm not I didn't check, but so I don't know if if mulon Rouge came out before or after Big Fish, but I kind of feel like and when I when I talk about when I talk about the comparison here, I'm basically saying, like Youwen in Big Fish and Ewen in mulan Rouge, there's that that that that optimism after came out after Okay, So I okay, So I'm kind of okay. So I'm kind of feeling like Ewan takes his young Ed Bloom character and kind of moves that over to mulon Rouge a little bit, because that whimsy he has, that that that just full hearted optimism, that smile, that that just that's his smile radiates in this movie, right, and it kind of I kind of feel like I saw a little bit at mulon Rouge. But Albert Finnie plays the older version of Ed Bloom and Amber. We know why you McGregor is cast. He's cast because of Albert Finnie.

13:09 But here's the thing. Albert Finnie gets this role by mistake. And I was like, are you kidding? He wasn't even supposed to get it. Sony wants to hire Brian Cox, and I thought about that for a minute, and I was like, you know what, I see Brian Cox as an older you McGregor. I could see that that makes sense it can't. But he would not have. He doesn't, for me have the charm that Albert Finny has. Albert Finnie is so charismatic. Yeah he is. And uh, there's someone else that's up for this role. We'll talk, we'll get to that, we'll get to him later. But Sony hands photos of Brian Cox to the casting director. She's looking at him, thinking that it's Albert Finnie. She calls Albert Finney's agent up, offers him the part without even having him read for it.

13:56 And Albert Finny's in town, he's in costuming, and all of a sudden, Sony's like, the hell's Albert Finny doing here? Like where is Brian Cox? I don't know if that casting director was working for Sony after that, right, but I would hope, I would hope that. Guss full mistake, though, you know it's right. She hired Bob off the street like she was close. He's British, they're about the age. Yeah, well what happened? I hired an old white guy from from London, Like, isn't that what you wanted? No? I I think it's a happy mistake. It's very fortuitous because Albert Finny, he's charming. In this Oh my goodness.

14:37 Yeah, every scene he's in he's you gotta watch him like I wouldn't feel comfortable leaving him around my girl, you know what I mean? Like did you did you pick up? Like when when uh Will's wife Josephine goes to see him and he's like, hello, he's got that that Lando, Like, what have we here? He's a smooth operator. I like Albert Finn. He's he's a sweetheart of this. What did you think about Billy Crudup, who is playing his adult son Will. I usually don't like him because he's usually playing an unlikable person. When has Billy Cruddup ever played an unlikable person? Oh? What? He I just watched him in something where Spotlight.

15:21 Yeah, he's kind of dicking spotlight. Yeah, okay, watchman, doctor man asshole. Well it's yeah, he's kind of an asshole. But he was. He was the lead singer. He was the lead singer of almost. Famous and Famous. He was awesome there, right, except for when he was treating Kate Hudson ship. So I guess okay, Amber, dammit, all right, we're moving on. And he's a pain in the ass of this movie like this was smack him. He get it together, buddy, They're not here forever. These come on, croud up, clean your act up. Yeah, all right, he's a good actor, though yes he might not play a lot of lovable roles actions.

16:07 I always like ew. Right, all right, before this becomes a billy crowd up, beat down, let's let's move on. This young woman is adorable in everything I've ever seen her do. Talking about Alison Lohman playing the young Sondra Bloom. And how perfect for a young version of Jessica Lang, like right, and to see her like they age her so well, like she matures through the story so well. Yeah, this is one of those situations where the love story that you see happening between you McGregor and Alison Lohman feels very real, very authentic. And it's the exact same when you see Albert Finnie and Jessica Lang. Like it again, real authentic. I buy it, like they're real right, Yes, love Alison Lohman in this She's fantastic. Jessica Lang playing the elder Sundra Bloom. I gotta tell you, I think if you just look up in the dictionary, like like beautiful Southern Bell. Does Jessica Lange automatically be at the photo of the right there, that's her? Right, even just Jessica Lane in like seventy six, like when she's with Jeff Bridges in King Kong, she's just dynamite. And then when you look at her in the eighties like in What Everybody's All American, or you look at her in

17:38 the nineties like Cape Fear, this is a woman. I kind of feel like she becomes more beautiful, if that's possible she as she gets. Older, Oh my goodness, yes, And so it just incredibly talented. Has played so many just different kinds of characters and just absolutely interesting and everything she does, and here she's so like tender and sweet and you can believe that. You know, she loves Edward for who he is, and he's a flawed human like we all are, but he's her soulmate. Yeah. I love these these two couples playing young and old versions of the same characters. They're just they're they're they're they're endearing, they they It's such a great love story seeing these seeing these people play out. Uh, you know, you mentioned Liam's wild ride into the into the world.

18:36 You know, he obviously had a good doctor. We got doctor Bennett in this one, played by Robert gulime Giam. Thank you, thank you, Robert g. G g There you go, Robert. Robert Giam, very good. All right, I'm gonna have problems here in a minute with another name, but I'll have you to back me up. Where do I know this guy from? Because he's Benson. Benson right, and isn't he? Isn't he? Uh? Rafiki Lian King? He is character the voice. Yeah, I wish, I wish we saw a little bit more doctor Bennett. I know we can't because this is Ed Bloom's story, but I was.

19:20 So happy to see Robert you in this movie. And he's again like the characters, they're just also charming. You like spending time with them. All right, Well, another another one that we like spending time with charming and a name that Amber will correct me on quickly. Let's talk about Josephine played by Marion Is it Cotier close? Cootier Kotier? All right, I was I was half. Right, you were close. I was good? Yeah, all right, good, thank you, thank you. Uh. This is her first American feature film. And she's so sweet and She's just perfect. Like that relationship that she has with her father in law is like the relationship my mom had with my grandfather, my dad's father, and it's so sweet.

20:13 She absolutely is a sweetheart. I love. One of my favorite scenes is the one I was kind of alluding to earlier where she's checking on on ed you know, at bad time, and he's you know, she wants to know the story of how they met, and she wants to take his photo and he's being kind of kind of bashful, kind of he's he's being a little flirty, but just the warmth on her face in that in that scene, the smile is they just melt your heart. Honestly. Yes, she is definitely the She has the grace that Will doesn't have to have more understanding and more empathy for his father than he does.

20:56 Well, yeah, because he doesn't even want her to go at first, Like they're in Paris, right, and he's like yeah, and she's like he's like nah, She's like I'm coming with you. Like I almost feel like she's going with him to kind of keep him in line, like to not make the mistake that he probably would have if she wasn't there, right, because again it's. Trying to get that chip off his shoulder. Yeah, because it's been three Like, did you did you pick up on this? Maybe maybe there's something to it, but I just I noticed this the last time I watched it. There's a weird thing happening here in this movie with like three years. Mm hmm okay, okay, so your faketail. Everything happens in threes. Okay, Okay, So that's that's that's what I'm missing then, because like it's three wish three. Okay, Well now you're making Now you're making it makes sense because I noticed, like there's a lot of things going on in three years.

21:46 It takes three years to do this, takes three years to do that. He and his father don't talk for three years until his father's dying. All right, Well more on that later then. Again, can't have a fairy tale, You can't have a Tim Burton film without some odd characters. I do want to touch upon real quick, some of some of our supporting cast that's a little odd. Steve A. Shimmy as Northern Winslow, who's not odds so much as he's just he's just kind of goofy. Like, yes, I know we're gonna get to that. One of the few parts that like, I literally laugh out loud the scene where they're dancing Inspector and he's he's like in the background thing behind the guy. I was so goofy.

22:27 Let's you know what, let's just talk about the scene because you know, we're sure. Yeah, so Edward Bloom who young ed So we're talking about you McGregor. He takes the path less traveled, right, it's a spooky off the beaten road, wicked forest swamp. Yeah, it's like the fire swamp from Princess Brida. Most there's all kinds of dangers, jumping spiders and other other things. And then it leads to this this just uh utopian. This this this this fantasy world right, this little little town, like I'm looking at it, the town of Specter, and I'm thinking, is this did he just walk into heaven? Because that's that's kind of the impression I get, is that, you know, what's your thoughts on this on this town of Spector.

23:11 Ember, That's funny to me that you wondered if it was heaven because I was immediately nervous. Really, it's like nothing good can come of this town. Like, I don't know. I'm not enough of a film scholar to know, like technically, is there something about the way the camera was angled or the way it was lit or But to me when he walks in, like it's already feels ominous. Well, might not be the best stop along the path watching it's perfect. It looks perfect. So I'm watching it, and I my thought was, this feels like a Twilight Zone episode, Like you just walked into the perfect the quote unquote perfect town and they don't want you to leave and you can never leave. And everyone's got their shoes off, which is another weird thing about it. Everyone's barefoot in this town.

24:03 And like the little girl steals his shoes and throws him up on the on the power line, so now he's barefoot. Yeah, he's just like dream sequence of like everything's great in this town, a specter like let's let's just eat apple pie all day from Missy Pile and let's just talk and let's just sing songs and dance. And then you got Steve BESHEMI kind of like in a weird, acid trippy type of dance sequence where he's just kind of floating in the background, real, real, creepyke yep, Yeah, Steve BESHEMI always always a good time. How about uh what leads ed Bloom out of out of town? Uh? Carl the Giant played by the late Matthew McGrory and so dear mm hmmm.

24:45 When you finally you know and it's it's one of those allegories of you know, you're you're frightened of what you don't know, and you're frightened of strangers and you're frightened of foreigners, and you know, then you go out to the cave to meet him and they're really not all that bad. Yeah, he just needed a haircut, in a shave and right just right. Yeah, deece of shoes, you know the cast or the crew made shoes for him for this movie. Yeah, he. Is a Guinness World record holder. He wore a size twenty nine and a half shoe. Oh my gosh, yeah, yeah, miss amazing guy. Like if I know, I know, I'm getting off topic here a little bit, but this this gentleman.

25:30 He actually he passed away from natural causes at age thirty two. He was pre he was he was pre law. This is a guy that wanted to be a lawyer, that was his dream, but because of his size, he kind of he kind of leaned into him. Was like, all right, I'll you know, he did like he was kind of like an oddity on The Howard Stern Show. And then that led to movie roles. You know, probably his most famous role would be, uh, he played Tiny in the Rob Zombie films, House of a Thousand Corpses and Devil's Rejects. I haven't seen this. You haven't seen them, and you Rob Zombie is not you. Okay, they're awesome. They're both awesome movies, but they're not for you.

26:12 Amber Lewis, Yeah, I mean you called my reaction to Alien Romulus like. I did to the minute. Did I know exactly the minute that you were. Going exactly moment that I was like, yeah, well so I when you say they're not for me? Yeah, but Carl, Carl the giant. What's funny though he was like seven and a half feet tall, he was not that much taller than the giant that they had at the circus. Well in real life. Yeah, so it's like they. Used like forced perspective and stuff. But I just thought that was funny that like in real life they were like comfortable.

26:54 Well, yeah, I think I think Burton's goal in this movie was to make him appear that he was ten feet tall rather than seven foot six, which I think is what his actual height was. But just I love the buddy, the buddy aspect that him and you McGregor have, like almost immediately, like you know, he's like, all right, we'll just wait for me to hold my pack. And when you McGregor gets out of this this specter town and he shows up all beat the hell, he's like, are you ready to go? Man? It's just like right, let's head on. So heading on they meet, they get to the circus, and we get we get Danny DeVito as the ring master slash slash werewolf. Like what, I gotta ask, what? Why? What? What purpose was there for Danny DeVito to be a werewolf on top of the character of the ring master?

27:43 Why not? Why not? Okay, it's a fairy tale, it's a fairy tale. But he was already just he was already a unique individual, you know. Yeah, I just I thought that was strange. That's all a little weird. I think it answered the question, like I think sometimes the question is how do you end up joining the circus? Okay, so that so he was a wolf he would like. Yeah, but he's not like a ware a wolf man or a were wolf type. He I mean he when he transformed, he's like the Goomork from Never Ending Story. He's terrifying. He was, but until yeah, until he gets his belly rubbed.

28:24 Right, he got he got stretches, and then he was happy. Yeah, all right, all right, yeah, very just I don't know. I love I love Danny DeVito in this you he is clearly just pulling pages of his Penguin work right down to like his his body language. He is playing the penguin in most of this movie. If you haven't, If you don't see that, then you didn't watch Batman returns at all I could do, right, But I do like him, but uh, it's gonna lead me into a scene here. Actually, I tell you what. Let's let's take a quick break and then we get back. We'll do something. We'll do some background. Well, but there's a couple of scenes I want to talk about, including one with Danny de Vito. If that's cool, Yeah, welcome back. We are discussing Tim Burton's two thousand and three fantasy drama Big Fish. Amber.

29:14 I know you know probably a lot about this movie. Here's what I'll tell you what I know six months and it blows my mind. It's like it's a mystery to me. Six months before Daniel Wallace's nineteen ninety eight novel Big Fish, a novel of mythic proportions, is even published, screenwriter John August convinces Columbia Pictures to buy the film rights so he can write the screenplay. Now, if you're asking yourself, who is John August and how does he have this power to convince a studio to buy a book that's not even published, my answer is I don't know, because John August, like he makes his big splash in nineteen ninety nine when he writes Go for Doug Lyman, So who is.

30:02 John Damon Johnson will say, there's your answer. Okay, he freaking loves that movie. He might, he might, but you would need a time machine. Also, because this is nineteen ninety eight when Doug la when John August is telling Columbia, hey, man, you gotta buy this, So I don't know. I'm already I'm immediately fascinated by John August and his back to. The movie The Player. I wonder if he knew someone who knew someone? Is that what it is? Some postcards? Or are you going to are you gonna are you gonna find a clever way to tie the player into all episodes for those you know just to dig at me.

30:43 It's Hollywood, so it's not that hard to do. Although I did see an interview with Tim Burton where he was talking about this movie, and Charlie Rose asked him, like, what drew him to make this movie? And he said, well, in Hollywood, when you pitch a movie, it has to be like one page and you have to be able to like sum it up in one page. And you can't do that with this movie. And I was like, that's the kind of movie I want to make. Let's talk about what movie was almost made in two thousand. This has lined up for Steven Spielberg to direct, and he's looking at Jack Nicholson for the role of Ed Bloom. Let's let that marinate for a minute, because this as weird and fantastical. It is as it is, and you immediately think, yeah, this is definitely a Tim Burton film.

31:32 Could this have been some kind of like ambum entertainment styled fantasy movie, like a could this have been a Steven Spielberg picture? Maybe the Steven Spielberg of now. Really of now, not of like eighties and nineties. Now, I feel like the Steven Spielberg that made The Fable Beans Okay, interesting, So I feel like the Steven Spielberg that made that movie could have made this movie. And because I feel like Tim Burton just approached it with a seriousness, even to the fairy tale part of it, you know, And that's what emotionally drags you through this story is you know, you are tied into the whimsy of these stories that he tells, and you want so badly for his son to see what you seem.

32:26 Well, okay, but again back to Spielberg's thoughts, He's looking at your your boy. We know you love you, we know you love Jack. I don't Jack does this angry? I think he's too angry. I think maybe, yeah, I don't know. And he has a vulnerability in this where you see in his eyes like when Will comes at him and tells him like everything you say is a lie, and that is a really strong word to throw at somebody. Okay, the like pain in his face, but you know is. Okay, so maybe maybe Colonel Nathan, maybe Colonel Nathan or Jessop isn't lying in bed. Look my god, but you're like like like Jack from like terms of Endearment or or Cuckoo's Nest, which or which is of Eastwick? Like could like a less horny which is of Jack Nicholson because he was charming. He was charming you in that movie.

33:27 I know that he was. He would definitely have been charming Mary and kutyar in the scene where she comes in to check. On him exactly. Well, I'll tell you something that Steven Spielberg was trying to do for you. He doesn't think there's enough to do for Jack in the movie, so he asked John August to rewrite the script and give Nicholson more scenes. Now, none of this happens, by the way, because Spielberg is a little he gets a little too busy with catch me if you can, with Tom Hanks and Leo so him and DreamWorks. Finally they leave the project. Script is restored to its original version. That's funny a story about total bullshit. To make a movie about a story that's total bullshit.

34:12 You can't handle all this fantasy stuff I'm going to go this lire this liar, Yeah, from. A liar in the real world versus a liar in a fairy tale. Yeah. Now Burton, Burton had just lost his father when he gets this script, So the father son themes that are in play and the fantasy sequences, this makes it all but impossible for him to pass up. He's he's in immediately, right. Yeah, And I think that's, you know, part of what makes it so touching for me as well, Like, my dad died in two thousand and nine, and yeah, which seems it's like, oh, that was a long time ago, but it doesn't feel like it was a long time ago.

34:55 Feels like it just happened sometimes. And you know, we didn't have the easiest relationship, and you know, your parents are challenging, and you know, I can't watch this movie without just bawling my eye. I go through like a whole box of Kleenex. Oh wow, you know, because to get that moment at the end where he finally accepts his dad for who he is is such a beautiful thing. I mean, oh, well, the buy in when his dad's asking him, you know, tell me that, tell me the story, and he's just. Tell the story of how I die. And he says, I don't know, you never told me that.

35:35 You never told me, And he's like, tell me how it starts. And when you see Billy Krudup buy in completely to his his father's life, his father's legacy, it is it's a it's a beautiful moment. It is. It's hard. It's hard to not break down and cry when that moment happens, because you like, Albert Finney is doing something, he is so happy, he's elated in the arms of his son's and you just like like totally bought in, Like he's having fun with it. He's not just doing it, he's doing it with his whole heart. Well that and just see the fact that credit, you know, is relaying all these aspects from all these other stories.

36:16 It kind of gives his father this idea like he was you know, Will was listening all along. Will he might not have bought into it, but he he believed enough to remember it right. Makes it amazing. I know, I know Burton has talked about how cathartic this was because he worked through a lot of his issues. He didn't have the greatest relationship with his father. He worked through a lot of his issues creating this film. So I think I think that anytime you hear you know, some of these movies have really wonderful behind the scenes stories. Some of them have this was a nightmare to work on. And when you hear the beautiful stories like like this one where it all kind of came together, everyone got along. Tim Burton crafts this, this beautiful story with these these amazing people, uh you know, these screenwriters and these these set designers. Colleen Atwood, I can't talk about Tim Burton without talking about her and her amazing costumes and her amazing wardrobe. Right, even in a movie like this where it's like, well, yeah, there's some fantasy stuff, but it's not this isn't Batman, right, but the fact that she creates such a vivid world, uh and and everyone's layered in these these colors and these these uh these fabrics, it's she's fantastic.

37:28 And he brought it in on time and on budget. Like, wouldn't you ever hear that? You ever hear that? Well, does that for him to walk in and pick up a Steven Spielberg project and make it a Tim Burton film and beyond time and beyond underbudget. That's that's awesome. Uh, listen accolades too, we got to talk about real quick nominated the Academy Award for Best Original Score for Danny Elfman, and this is a gorgeous soundtrack. I wish, I wish we could have got Wayne Whited to talk a little bit about this one. We got to get him back, Camber. We've just his his scoring sessions with us, but we'll we'll definitely have him back soon. Danny Elfman nominated for the Academy Award for Best Picture for Best Original Score, And then we talk Golden Globe nominations. This one gets Best Motion Picture, Best Supporting Actor for Albert Finny, Best Original Score for Danny Elfman, Best Original Song for Pearl Jam's Man of the Hour. That song Wow, want of Pearl Jam's best.

38:29 I don't care who you are. I love Pearl Jam. I've seen them. They're amazing in concert, They're amazing songwriters, they're amazing performers. I read where Tim Burton specifically asked them to do a song for the for the closing credits. He let them see a rough cut of the film. Band leaves weaving, Eddie Vedder writes the song like the following day they put it to music and it's back, Like it's back to Burton within days. And it's a beautiful song. It's such a such a. Touch good and like you need it after the end of the movie where you're just like emotionally destroyed it. Yeah, yeah, like you need this song and again the music's so good. In addition to the Oscars and the Golden Globes, this Grammy nomination for Best Score for Motion Picture for Danny Effman. Amazingly enough, all these nominations, big Fish doesn't win anything. I don't know I feel about that. Honestly.

39:27 I feel like, you know, Tim Burton is one of those one of those artists that that doesn't get the respect he deserves. I believe you're right. I think people just love to kind of roll their eyes and be like, oh, he's doing some weird again, and you know they don't really, you know, appreciate the depth that that his movies have. I know we're starting to go along, but we gotta we gotta talk about the pivotal scene. I've got mine, but I want to before I before I share, I want to hear what does Amber Lewis believe is the pivotal scene in this film. It's hard to pick because there's so many, like beautiful visual moments like the daffodils and you know, it just seems to just take your breath away. But for me, the pivotal scene is when Will goes to see Jenny and Helen about it. Carter tells him, you know, this is the truth about the man that your father really is.

40:34 And he loved your mother more than anything in the world, and he loved you more than anything in the world. And he did all these good things for all of these people that you never even saw. You had no idea, and that whole sequence just. I do you love that one? And you know, we didn't mention Helen about him Carter earlier, and we shame on us because this woman is playing not one, not two, but three roles in this film. She's you know, she's the young Jenny, she's the older Jenny, she's the old Witch. Which I read it took five hours for her to put on put on that makeup, which that shows.

41:20 You how good that makeup is. Because I think Helen the bottom Carter is very beautiful, but like the makeup's not that overt. No, like she just looks like a. Person, very unusual looking person, but she it's not outlandish. No, this isn't like fantasy movie outlandish, even though we're in a fantasy movie. Yeah, she's playing a witch, but she's not like the they're not. Is she a witch or is she just a weird old lady that lives in the swamp. You know, you got to give her credit to Amber because for anyone to sit in a makeup chair for five hours, that takes well.

42:03 She was pregnant. While she was pregnant, right and. Had morning sickness, Like, yeah, that's some control. She's She's she's tough. I love I love the Witch, that the whole thing, Like you look at her her magic eye and you'll see how you die. I love that whole sequence. That's probably the first time I cry. And then is when young Edwards says, no, I want to know, because then after that, like you know, well, I can live through anything because I know how it's gonna end. So whatever bad happens to me doesn't have to be scary because I already know this.

42:45 And how I go, Yeah, great moment, and I just love that I'm going to give you my pivotal scene. Yes, and I'm quoting the movie here. They say when you meet the love of your life, time stops, and that's true. When Ed sees Sondra for the first time at the circus and slowly approaches her through the frozen obstacles that separate them, just passing through, everything's just stopped. And I remember watching this in the theater and as I'm thinking about this scene. Now, you know, earlier I said I like it, I don't love it, but now I'm thinking I like it a lot. I don't know if I love it, because now I'm falling in love with it as I talk about this. But even when he kind of softly pushes the popcorncor out of the way, you know, that's that's flying through the air man. That is it's my favorite moment of the movie. And it's it's not just because of the special effects that are involved. It's just his look of love at first sight. And then we slowly trek in on Alison Loman, who is just a vision who's just stunning in that dress, and you're like, yep, I get it, I totally understand love it. Like this this movie scene makes you understand the concept of love at first sight as far as I'm concerned.

44:03 Yep. Absolutely. Let's take one more break and then Amber, I want to hear what you think about some of Tim Burton's filmography. We are back talking about Tim Burton. Amber. This is not the first Tim Burton episode that we've done. David and I actually covered Mars Attacks, and if you haven't seen that movie, it is just an absolute fun time at the movies. It is. It's his goofy homage to nineteen fifty sci fi alien invasion movies. And when I say everybody's in it, I mean everybody is in it.

44:45 Jack Nicholson as the President, you got Glenn Close as the first Lady, Sarah Jessica Parker, Michael J. Fox, Jim Brown. I could go on and on. I'm not going to. What I will tell you to do is go back listen to our Mars tax episode. For Tim Burton. We talked, We talked very extensively about his background and his filmography, so we're not gonna do that again. I don't want to retread because people already know what I think of his fhmography. But what I would like to do, I like to share a few fun things about Tim Burton and then let's play his greatest hits. I want to know Amber. I want to know the Amber Lewis take on some of his movies. If that's cool. Okay, So a few fun things about Tim Burton. Nearly everywhere he goes, he always has a pocket sized sketchbook and some watercolors ready to go. He's always ready to sketch, He's always ready to write. You will not find him without a small sketch book on his person. The ever the artist.

45:46 I love that about him. That I love it. That is amazing. Now if you've seen, if you're familiar with his work, you know he not only does he have no problem with clowns, he loves him. Meanwhile, very fearful of chimpanzees. He has a phobia of chimpanzees. Well, I can't blame him on that one. Kind of It's unusual though, when you think that he directed a plan of the ah Tree Bach So I don't know if that's just him working through his issues. Right what? But I mean those were people, they. Weren't you know? We mentioned we mentioned Spielberg earlier. Spielberg almost asked him to direct Grimlins in nineteen eighty four, but ultimately he went with Joe Dante because Burton had never directed a feature length film.

46:30 I might have liked Gremlins if he had made it. Well, I love Grimlins, and I might be I would have loved it more. That's that's one of the best Christmas out there. Oh god, no oh Amber, Amber. No no, no, no, no, no, no no. I don't know what to say. I even watched it again last year, like trying to make it happen, and no. You're missing out, you are missing out. Rattle one last thing. Fun quote here, This is what Tim Burton has to say about becoming a movie director. Quote. There was one moment, and it happened in school. I had a big final exam.

47:11 We were supposed to write a twenty page report on this book about Houdini. I probably would have loved reading it, but I didn't, so I just decided to make a little super eight movie based on it. I tied myself to the railroad tracks and all that. I mean, this is kids stuff, but it impressed the teacher and I got an a and that was maybe my first turning point when I said, yeah, I wouldn't mind being a filmmaker. I love that. I love those stories, like you know, Steven Spielberg with the super Air eight Yeah, camera and Gamero de Toro is another one, you know, like blowing up their kitchen instead of putting their sister in the movie.

47:51 You know, like Amberg, young young Tim Burton in your classroom? Does he get Do you give him an A for this project? Absolutely? Absolutely? He would have been one of my favorites. All right. I love the weird ones. Well we got so we got forty one credits to his his name. When when we're looking as directing, we do we don't have time for all of them. And I know we're doing fast, we're doing we're doing quick takes, but I do want to hear hear your side on some of these. Did you ever see Let's start with nineteen eighty forty, you know it's the fortieth anniversary of his short Franken Winnie. Did you ever see that? Yes, your thoughts.

48:31 I didn't like really remember it until he made the full length version and I was like, oh my god, it's the same exacty, it's a little bit longer. Nineteen eighty five, peeweez, Big Adventure. Oh my god, this is the movie that I've probably seen the most because my brothers and I watched it, like, nonstope, I want that thing that makes the breakfast that we go machine. Who has room in their in their kitchen for that? I don't, but I'm with you. I wouldn't mind having it until then. I'll just enjoy mister t cereal. Uh. Nineteen eighty eight Beetlejuice.

49:13 I quote this movie like all the time to Liam. If you don't let me cut at this house and make it my own, I will go out. Second. Are you excited? Uh? We got the new Beetle Beetlejuice, Beetle Cass coming out. It just came out this past weekend. Like, so can we got we gotta. Get the theater. We got it? Yeah, all right, we won't wait anymore. Well, let's wrap this up and we'll go see it. Ninety eight nine. Second best superhero movie ever made. I'll stand by that. We listened to the soundtrack going to the Pool that entire summer. That was the bomb. That Prince soundtrack was awful, but we listened to it because it was awesome. Come on, bat Dance, you're gonna tell me that you loved bat Dance. Yeah, okay, I mean we loved it any nine.

50:01 They played it on Sirius Xtend the other day and like it was blaring. The windows of my car were vibrating. I quote, Prince, get the funk out. Just we're moving on. Nineteen ninety he does one of my favorites, Edward Scissorhands. Yeah, I can't watch it like I just I mean, you get what like part at the yeah, the part at the end when she says before he came and never snowed, like I completely dissolve. I'm a wreck. I think it's such a beautiful movie. Edward Scissorhands is one of the Tim Burton Christmas Trilogy movies. The next one is nineteen ninety two's Batman Returns Hot Take better than Batman? No, no, my hot take is better than Batman. What I mean?

50:46 No, you can't just because Danny DeVito is so disgusting, like. The penguin, he's awesome. We want to just barf like a chicken. So like I watch it for Michelle Pfeiffer and that's now. Now now I paraphrase Max Shrek Amber, shame on you. All right, We're moving on nineteen ninety four, Edwood. This gets you saw once? Yeah, like when it came out. Next time you see Dave Burns, ask him to tell you a funny ed Wood story. He's, Oh, yeah, that's a funny Edwood story involving fifty dollars. That's it. I'm still just like, son of a bitch. What is my reaction to it? Dave, I know you're listening, so you'll have to You'll have to hit Amber up and let her know what I'm talking about. Nineteen ninety six, we covered his his sci fi comedy extravaganza Mars Attacks. It is just so over the top hilarious. Amber, I'm gonna give you a guarantee you watch this, you're gonna absolutely love it.

51:53 I'm sure. I don't know why I haven't watched it. Yeah, I don't know it, but you're gonna enjoy it. But on the List nineteen ninety nine, he he goes scary with a sleepy. Hollow, like really scary. Really scary, and I love. My favorite thing about this movie is the Johnny Depp based Nikobob crane on like a mixture of Angela Lansbury and murder. She wrote, and like a twelve year old girl who's like squeamish about everything. I'm like, beause it's also smart because he's he's playing it more like a forensic detective. Yes, and I've talked. I'm not gonna I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna give his name, but I talked to an adult man a couple of weeks ago. We were talking about Tim Burton and we talked about Sleepy Hollow, and he was like, no, I never saw it. I was like, what do you What do you mean you never saw it's awesome because it's too scary. I was like, yeah, but it came out nineteen ninety nine and you were an adult. He's like, it just I didn't want to be it just too scary.

52:57 Okay, fair enough, but it is scary. I told it. I was like, go go check it out. Yeah, it's awesome. Two thousand and one. I'm gonna say this is his first misstep. The remake is Mark Wahlberg. I love the original. I hate Mark Wahlberg, so it was so easy to pass on this one. You okay, well, I I'm not a fan of it. I'll leave it at that. I own it, but that's just because I owned the box set with all of them. So oh, okay, you have to yeah. Two thousand and three, we've been talking about big Fish this hour. Two thousand and five. I'm sorry, I amber another misstep. Charlie and the Chocolate, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory.

53:41 I maybe it's just I don't want Tim Burton to do remakes. I love his original stuff, but I just did not care for I love Johnny Depp, but I did not care for his his uh, his Willy Wonka. And maybe that's just because he's not Maybe maybe because it's because he's not Gene Wilder. I don't know. I just I mean that was hard get over. But I really love that it's closer to the book, so I feel like there's enough room to love them both. Like what Johnny Depp was doing with his anti Lennox haircut, I just well, Okay, he he got me. Though, he's still I'm still loyal. In two thousand and five though, because he's got two movies coming out, he also does The Corpse Bride. Yes your thoughts.

54:27 Love Corpse Bride. Love it. Love the music. The songs are so good, and I'm a big fan of Stop Mission animation. Yeah, I mean, we'll stop. So we had been. We had been waiting for him for more of this ever since The Night Before. Christmas, which is not a Tim Burton movie. Is not a timp. That's why you know people are going, wait, why did he pass? Why did he pass? That? I didn't And unofficially that would be the third movie in the Christmas trilogy by by Tim Burton, even though he didn't direct it. So but Corpse, I enjoy it. I thought I thought was fun. M hm, really really good. I'll tell you what else I enjoyed. The first Tim Burton musical, real music that we get two thousand and seven, he does Sweeney Todd, The Demon Barbara fleet Street. Are you a fan of this one?

55:15 No? You and Liam? Liam loves Sweeney Todd. Are you telling me Alan Rickman's not even if they get you on board with this one? When you've seen Angela Ansberry play Missus love it you cannot watch anyone else. And I love it on a bottom carter, but you can't sing, And so the answer is no, all right, I'm gonna I don't really like Sweeney Todd, but if I'm gonna listen to it, it's gonna be the OBC. Well, I loved it. I did not love yet another remake that he does in twenty ten, Alice in Wonderland.

55:56 All right, you like it? Okay, all right? How about how about twenty twelve he does Dark Shadows. I think you have to be a fan of the. Here's What right, the original soap opera and loved it, and this is not that. Like you have to go on Amazon Prime and watch the original soap opera to truly appreciate how Bunker's crazy. It was all right, Well, moving right along. I know you said that you had seen the full length franken Wine that he comes up with in twenty twelve. It's very sweet. Did you watch this one? Almost made the cut. I was looking at this movie until you hijacked the production and said, no, we're doing Big Fish. I was looking at twenty fourteen. He does a movie called Big Eyes.

56:43 Did you Chase not see this one? I kind of want to see this one. I want to see it for Christoph Waltz. Yeah, I mean Christoph Waltz and who else we got into playing his wife Ammy Adams, Amy Adams, Yeah, Kristin Ritters in this Danny Houston a drama about the awakening of painter Margaret Keene, her phenomenal success in the nineteen fifties and the subsequent legal difficulty she had with her husband, who claimed credit for all her work. I watched the trailer and I was like, I this does not look like a Tim Burton movie at all, by the way, doesn't feel like one. Doesn't look like one. I want to see it, but who knows. Maybe next year we'll we'll do another Tim Burton one, and it'll be since it won't be Sweeney Todd, I guess it'll be Big Eyes.

57:27 I mean, you'll just have to you know, I have to have Liam write all my copy for me. I gotta tell you. I almost feel like this is the perfect time for a Tim Burton episode because this next film was mentioned to me just days ago, and I didn't mention. I didn't say anything about us covering Tim Burton. But my sister Molly actually asked me about Missus Peregrine's Home for Peculiar Children. We were talking movies, and I was like, I've never heard of it. What are you talking about? She's like, what do you mean you didn't hear about? It's a Tim Burton movie. I was like, is it and then even my dad was like, yeah, it's got Eva Green it. My dad's a big Eva Green fan, by the way, so if she did a movie, show like, oh, so you know you know it too. But my sister she was was giving a lot of praise to this film. So in any movie with Samuel Jackson and Judy Dinch seems like it needs to be a must watch. So I'm probably gonna check that out this weekend. You said you haven't seen it. Nope, all right, Dan, but we got homework.

58:23 I know, I've got it like a old Tim Burton marathon. Tim Burton marathon, playing it right, all right, we're the most dumb twenty nineteen. He does Dumbo. You know, Disney's doing all these live action remakes and yeah, I don't care. I don't care for any of them. So yeah, I haven't been a fan, so I haven't. All right, good, I haven't seen that. Well that's all we got to say about that, and that leads us. He did a little bit of work on the Wednesday Show, the TV series. So ashamed to say I haven't seen Liam watched it and that was the greatest thing ever and I don't know why I haven't gotten around to it, but. I get around to it originally. At some point, I'm going to end my feud with Netflix because it is a Netflix original show. So yes, I haven't seen it for that, but you know, like I said this past weekend, Beetlejuice, Beetlejuice is out. It is just dominating at the box office, and I'm excited to see it.

59:16 Yeah, I haven't really watched. I saw one trailer and I think it was like the teaser trailer, and I haven't watched anything else because I don't want to know. I want to just go in cold. But Michael Keaton, I saw a couple of interviews with him and he looks like so excited, like he's having the time of his life. So yeah, I guess he's taken. I guess he's taking a little bit of time off. The only thing that he's coming up, he's going to direct a couple more episodes of Wednesday for Netflix. But let's talk big fish. Let's wrap it up. Your thoughts, Amber. First off, what did do you own this or did you did you stream this somewhere? Nope? I own it all right. I watched it on on Prime well worth of three point fifty nine to the HD version. I believe, Well you own it, so this is definitely one. Well you said, let's you said it's the best Tim Burton movie. Even after we went through that at Philmography, you're still standing by that, like this is this is Tim Burton's best movie.

1:00:12 Yeah, you have the real story and you have the fairy tale? Which one do you prefer? Which one makes you happier? And that's this movie? Like it's so beautiful. I love it. I began this hour saying I liked, liked it, didn't love it. I kind of feel like I'm ready to say I liked it a lot and probably will love it the next time I watch it. You got me that far, listeners. Amber Lewis is the voice of reason. I don't know how reasonable she's being right now by saying this is the best film that Tim Burton has ever done. What do you think of Big Fish? You can let us know on social media. You'll find us on Facebook, Instagram, and X. You gotta let us know if Amber's right or not, because I always look forward to those the uh those messages. You can check out a film by podcast dot com for all of our episodes streaming on all the platforms of your choice. Our entire library is there, streaming free. You can write to us at a film By podcast at gmail dot com with your questions, comments and concerns. We may just read your response on the show and send you some of a film by swag. Join us tomorrow for our Star Trek theme series, Phasers Set the Stun, Wayne, David and Scott are discussing Star Trek First contact and they're beaming aboard. Yes, uh, and they're beaming aboard Chuck, Brian. Chuck is a friend.

1:01:38 He's a listener. We made first contact with on the Surely You Can't Be Serious podcast and he agreed to being a board the film By podcast to talk track and Amber. The best ever. I got a little sneak peek at that conversation so big it's probably gonna be a two part episode and uh you got yeah, you gotta come back, Come back tomorrow for part one and next time on a Film By. As I mentioned when we started, we'll fight for freedom wherever there's trouble because g I Joe will be here next week. Amber. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for joining me for this film that you you love, and I love that you love it. Honestly, this is one where you moved the needle for me deathly. So thank you.

1:02:21 Thank you, and to everyone out there listening, following, and subscribe to our Patreon like Steve and Matt, we thank you.